M.H Posted November 27, 2001 Share Posted November 27, 2001 Hello. I had a little argue with a friend of me lately. So far we both havent heard the K-horn ever play. But he told me that the LaScala's have more punch then the K-horn. I whas a bit suprised because the K-Horn goes to 35Hz and the Lascala only 45Hz. But he whas convinced that the K-horn had a more "wharm" sound then the LaScala and the Scala's had more kick/punch then the K-Horn. Can anyone of u tell us what the main difference is in sound between those 2? Thx for the help. Greetings M.H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted November 27, 2001 Share Posted November 27, 2001 The difference is that the Khorn goes lower in the bass, that's the only difference. Now "punch" is an objective feeling but I don't think that deep bass is needed for it, reproducing the frequencies around 80-100 cycles with great power and clarity will give punch, I think it's a mid-upper bass thing. One of the great bassplaying rigs of the past was the Fender Dual Showman with a double JBL-D-140 enclosure, an enclosure that starting rolling off at 100 cycles, yet the sound was very punchy and clear despite the lack of low bass. In fact the presence of low bass could subtract from a feeling of punchiness by making the upper bass stand out less. Mind that this is all totally subjective. This message has been edited by TBrennan on 11-27-2001 at 11:31 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted November 27, 2001 Share Posted November 27, 2001 The La Scala and the KHorn have the same tweeter and midrange, both the actual driver itself and the horn in which the driver is mounted, so (excepting differences due to the KHorns mandatory corner placement and the more flexible placement options with the La Scala) the sound coming from the midrange and tweeter on both speakers will, for all practicle purposes, be identicle. They both use the same bass driver (the "K-33", specific version depending upon year manufactured), but this driver is horn loaded by the cabinet, and the two cabinets are very, very different. The KHorn is a MUCH larger quasi-exponential horn than the La Scala. The most significant difference is that the KHorn has almost another full octave of bass available than the La Scala. The way that you perceive this difference COULD make it sound like the La Scala is "punchier" - you're hearing LESS deep bass, so the mid and upper bass you hear will appear to be accentuated. The La Scala will also not be as smooth as the KHorn - peaks and valleys in the bass frequency response will be, uh, "worse" with the La Scala - the shorter horn results in more anomolies marring the desired flat response. Again, depending upon the music, this COULD make the La Scala sound "punchier", if one of the sharp peaks in response happened to hit where there was significant music content in the song. Also, going back to the fact that the KHorn MUST be sitting in the corner, and the La Scala could very well be out further into the room, if you were sitting closer to the La Scala when you heard it you might perceive a more punchy sound. Keep in mind that the bass response of both the KHorn and the La Scala crosses over to the midrange driver at 400Hz, which is actually in the lower midrange as opposed to the upper bass, so the differences in the bass cabinets will affect the sound you hear in the lower midrange as well as the bass. The KHorn is a better speaker, in terms of frequency response range and the eveness of that response. Whether you LIKE the KHorn or the La Scala better will be largely a matter of how they're set up in the room. Properly set up in a room that works for them, the KHorns will blow away the La Scala in terms of both bass impact and bass extension. Poorly set up KHorns, or KHorns shoehorned into a room where they really don't work all that well, could sound quite anemic and lack the bass slam and impact they're capable of. Hope that helps. ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Ray's Music System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.H Posted November 27, 2001 Author Share Posted November 27, 2001 Thx for the reply's I think u explained it verry well. Hopefully i can hear the K-horn play in the near future. So far i will enjoy my lascala's.. Love the sound they produce,the only weakness in my opinion is the lack of low bass. Greetings M.H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted November 27, 2001 Share Posted November 27, 2001 Ray, The published graphs of the La Scala I have show it is at least as smooth as the K-horn above 60 Hz. Below that the response drops like a bluff. The La Scala has a 1 or 2 dB hump about 200 Hz that would make the La Scala sound a little "warmer" than the K-horn, but they are remarkably similar in response (above 60). The 45 Hz rating seems iffy. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted November 28, 2001 Share Posted November 28, 2001 John, check this out. This is a set of graphs produced by Klipsch some time back, comparing the Belle, Scala and KHorn. Got these from Mike Lindsey of this board. I don't know the conditions under which these graphs were made, but I have to believe Klipsch tried to measure them in an environment in which they were performing optimally. Takes a bit of staring and pondering, but I would categorize them thusly - the Klipschorn is clearly the "flattest" speaker of the three, with response that shows +/- 2dB from 40Hz to 15kHz, if you ignore a small dip at about 55 and a couple of small peaks between 125 and 175 Hz, and another small peak at 5kHz. Even with these peaks included, you're still +/- 3dB over that range. Impressive. Bass flat to about 40, rolls off a bit down to 35, then drops like a stone. However, I was kind of surprised to see how "rough" the curve is, particularly compared to the Belle. Belle has by far the "smoothest" curve, but LOOK AT THE BASS! Peaks at about 125, then drops smoothly at about 12dB/octave below that. Interestingly enough, there's an overall "tilt" from the upper bass through to the lower treble. Belle rolls out smoothly, dropping about 10dB between 150Hz and 6kHz in a very controlled fashion, then perks up, climbing 6dB to a local max at about 15kHz. But the biggest thing to note here is how smooth Belle's curve is. Have no idea why. La Scala combines flat upper base to treble response of KHorn to rapid rollout of lower bass of Belle, but superimposes a VERY rough response over this. I have absolutely no idea why La Scala shows such a rough series of peaks and valleys through midrange, and there are serious response anomolies in the upper bass. For example, look at the response between 70Hz and 200Hz. We're at an indicated 100dB output (reference point of 0dB on chart) at 70Hz, then +6dB at 75, back to +1dB at 80, +6 at 90, +2 at 100, +7 at 110, +4 at 150, +8 at 160, and back down to +2 at 200. Anybody have any ideas? La Scala is ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Ray's Music System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted November 29, 2001 Share Posted November 29, 2001 I've been doing some comparing with folded horns this week. For those of you that don't know.I have 2 pairs of K-horns, 3 pairs of LaScalas, 1 pair of home built Jensen Imperials, and now a pair of the University Classic folded horns. I just finished building the University Classic last week. That's why I'm comparing again. If you Have K-horns and LaScalas, disconect the tweeters and mid range drivers from both and give a listen. The LaScala sounds like it has blankets stuffed in it's mouth compared to the K-horn. It's not nearly as clean & detailed as the K-horn. or the Imperial & University for that matter. It's making me think that it may be time to get rid of the LaScalas. Q. ------------------ Q-Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted November 30, 2001 Share Posted November 30, 2001 Hey Q-Man, I just now realized you live in Merritt Island. That's only about 40 minutes from my house (Oviedo). Would love to come by and hear a pair of Khorns, since I've never heard them before. What do you say? Mike ------------------ My Music Systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted November 30, 2001 Share Posted November 30, 2001 Mike, Only, if when I drive thru Oviedo to my sister in laws home, you let me stop by and give your system a listen to. I neen an excuse or reason to get out of their house for a while when I'm there . Would like to hear that SVS sub. They live off of Red Bug RD. I live about 10 minutes south of the Merritt Island exit, off of the Bee Line. If I'm up to moving things around when you come, You can compare the LaScala & Klipschorn as I discribed. Without the tweeter & mid range driver, you can really notice the difference in them that way. Then you can comment on it, so the members of this B.B. won't think that I'm nut's. I finally got around to trying out AL's network, which I just put away about 8 month's ago when I bought it. I can't comment on it, because he has them fuse protected & the fuses blew when I turned up the volume. So I did my listening & comparing with some other spare LaScala networks that I have. I was using a Klipsch K33E in the University folded horn with AL's network. I wanted to try to compare apples to apples & just hear the cabinet differences between this University & the LaScala. I know one thing now, anyone using LaScalas that don't have corners for the Klipschorn, should build this cabinet and just put all the LaScala drivers in it. It sounds very similar to the K-horn. John Warren, If your reading this thanks for the plans. Gil, If your reading this, I will be sending you the plans with some pictures of the assembly. Al uses a 1-1/4 amp fuse in his networks. Maybe it should be a 2 amp. I'll have to ask him about this. Mike, The bad news is that you will have to wait untill after Christmas to come over. I'm really busy right now. Q. ------------------ Q-Man This message has been edited by Q-Man on 11-30-2001 at 06:11 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mace Posted November 30, 2001 Share Posted November 30, 2001 Ray, Thanks for the graphic. Interesting to compare the 3 big Klipsch that way. Is there an online repository where one can get response curves for other Klipsch product like the KLF and RF, Cornwall, Chorus and Fortes?? Or, could you post them here if you have them? Thanks! Mace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted November 30, 2001 Share Posted November 30, 2001 I have a few more, they're on the disk on the system at the office, will post them Monday or Tuesday. ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Ray's Music System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted December 1, 2001 Share Posted December 1, 2001 I really enjoy listening to my RB5s and reading the Heritage discussions. You guys give me great ideas to ponder for future Klipsch purchases. I am amazed Q Man has room for all of the speakers. I am probably a few years away from acquiring the space(negotiating with my wife to get "refridgerator" size speakers) to try Belles or Lascalas(K Horns probably would not work in my current rooms). Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mace Posted December 4, 2001 Share Posted December 4, 2001 Ray, Thanks! I look forward to seeing the graphs. Mace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted December 5, 2001 Share Posted December 5, 2001 My pleasure Gary. The University "Classic" is the next best thing to Imperial and (IMO) rivals the Klipschorn. Some pics attached. This message has been edited by John Warren on 12-05-2001 at 06:05 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimwoodie Posted December 6, 2001 Share Posted December 6, 2001 if your thinking of punch, like the snap of a snare head that hits you in the chest, thats a 2500 hz. thing, dude ..... what are you calling "punch" ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimwoodie Posted December 6, 2001 Share Posted December 6, 2001 also, the rough curve of the 'scala's is due to the dual outlets of the horn, look at some of the ev "w" cab curves to see the same interaction ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.H Posted December 7, 2001 Author Share Posted December 7, 2001 quote: Originally posted by slimwoodie: if your thinking of punch, like the snap of a snare head that hits you in the chest, thats a 2500 hz. thing, dude ..... what are you calling "punch" ?? I think u are talking to me?? Well..with punch i mean indead the feeling u have when u hear a drum ore a snap of a snare. But i dont think the punch is only in the 2500 hz area? I mean..when i listen to jazz and i hear a drummer hit the biggest drum i also feel a little punch. And i dont belive that is a 2500 hz sound? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimwoodie Posted December 7, 2001 Share Posted December 7, 2001 well, say 800 hz is the very bottom of it, the snap of the head is in the 2500 hz region Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted December 8, 2001 Share Posted December 8, 2001 Q-Man, Thanks for the reply. I really am looking forward to checking out your system and reporting back what I hear. You are also welcome at my house any time you're in the neighborhood... Mike ------------------ My Music Systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted December 8, 2001 Share Posted December 8, 2001 Mike, I probably didn't recognize your email and deleated it. I'll email you after X-mas & we'll set up a time for you to come over. If your able to, and want to go to the trouble, you can bring one of your speakers with you to compare. Q. ------------------ Q-Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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