Tubers: 6DJ8 for 6922

[Allan Songer]

What pieces of old gear are liekly to contain 6DJ8, 6922, & 7308 tubes?

v/r

JC

They weren't really used in hi-fi audio until fairly recently. I can't think of a single "classic" preamp that used them . . .

[NOSValves]

Well I think I have handled more used tubes in my day then most that frequent the klipsch forum. Pulled from every piece of gear imaginable. I almost never run into old noisy 12Axx series tubes even when they test weak and barely useable. I do run into many noisy 6U8, 6BL8 and 6DJ8's among others. So I would say a 6DJ8 is more noise prone then many other small signal tubes. No bid deal most of the problem is with NOS and used NOS. The premium "new" NOS supplies are long gone or you have to pay the big bucks to source them. I truly believe the 6DJ8 is just not a long lasting quiet tube like say a 12AX7 TFK. It has other qualities that make up for the hassle. Nothing perfect in the tube world it just doesn't work out that way. Trade offs they exist at every corner of this hobby.

Craig

[NOSValves]

I don't need printed data. I have no less then about 12 vintage well thought of 6DJ8 tubes that test very strong in all 4 of my tube testers. One would reasonably say by the tube tester that the tubes have plenty of useful life in them. But out of the 12 I have just one that is really quiet. Now lets take the imfamous TFK 12AX7 I have tested at least 500 of these out of vintage gear and most test strong just like the 6DJ8's some test pretty weak but not often. I can count on one hand how many of these tubes are noisy in Phono Sections which are much more susceptable to noisy tubes then a line stage slot. Now there is no denying that the TFK 12AX7 is an extreme example but this same example is true just about across the board of the entire 12Axx family from all NOS manufacturers. To me I don't need data my proof is in real world use and experience with hundreds of vintage amps, preamps and the tubes in them.

The 6DJ8 becomes noisy long before the rest of the usefullness of the tube is gone and this is with NOS tubes. Many other commonly used small signal tubes do not become noisy before there time especially in the 12Axx series of tubes of course that is in my limited experience of rebuilding at least 600 to 800 units and testing all the tubes in the last 5 years.

I mean its pretty common knowledge that finding quiet vintage 6DJ8's is a hard task. But 12Axx series tubes can be bought used on eBay with relative ease and be just a quiet as can be. I've probably had 150 customer buy them with no issue. Honestly I can't believe your argueing the slight noise disavantage of the 6DJ8.... no tube is perfect. No one here is even referencing to it as a huge deal.

Craig

[NOSValves]

Mark,

It seems fairly obvious your looking for a fight I suggest you look else where. This thread has absolutely nothing to do with you or your products. I have shared my experience with tube gear and general audio on this forum for 5 years and I'm not stopping. I'm sharing real world experience with tubes. This has nothing to do with you.

What the tube was designed to do does not make it what it actually is known to do. I'm sure your FACTS of why it was developed are indeed true. But out here in the real world they become noisy much sooner then the 12Axx series counterpoints while they still test to be very good tubes in tube testers. This is not new news that I'm spreading. Many of your own customers have went thru the same constant search I'm talking about here once they find that nice NOS quiet tube they love the gear. Yes were talking about used tubes for the most part. WHY is that such a big deal to you??????? This subject is not about you and your products. Your acting paranoid for nothing.

I'm sure many of these tubes came out of old gear like you suggest but it doesn't change the fact that they are noisy. Every TFK 12AX7 I have owned and handled came out of 45+ year old gear and they are as quiet as any tube ever produced at least that I have used. Three of the 6DJ8's I own came out a Fisher tuners .....Test great and are noisy as all crap. Amperex no less. Hmmmmmmmmmm every single tube other then the 6DJ8 test, work and were still 100% original in these tuners. Hmmmmmmm what does that tell you?

Oh and picking one sentence where I obviously made an error is kind of cheesy but I concede. Sorry I misspoke about the advertised purpose of the tube. But the point is that people love rolling NOS tubes and the available NOS tubes in the 6DJ8 family are a real pita to source. By the way many of the stories and tubes that people have reported noisy were from very well respected tube dealers that live and die by there reputation. They were sold as NOS but they still proved to be noisy and were returned. Not all INTERNET based tube dealers are crooks Mark. I still say just because Amperex says its a low noise tube don't make it so you know some companies have and always will talk up there goods beyond the real world truth been doing it since the only wheels in use were made of stone.

Craig

[Allan Songer]

I'm not sure what anyone calls "classic" - and that is fine - but the Audible Illusions preamps of 1980 used 6DJ8 - that's 26 years ago. My ADC B100 preamp used 6DJ8 in 1979. The Thetas of 1978 or so used them, as did the Berning preamps of late 1970s. And others too. Many of the units mentioned are, or were, high-end audiophile "standards" of their era, each with a huge following and much success, and pretty much weened the world of the old PAS 3 12AX7 preamps. You can hardly say the 6DJ8 is "new" for preamps, unless you've only been involved in audio a few years. To say the 6DJ8 is not long lasting is based on no data that I am aware of. I have been using these tubes since 1978 and have made many designs with them. I'd love to see the "data" surrounding any claim these are not long lasting tubes.

Sadly all new tubes being made today are not as good as yesterday. That however, has equal bearing on all tube types, not anything specifically to do with 6DJ8s.

Hey, Mark! I'm an OLD mothereffer and 1979 seems like friggin' YESTERDAY!!

Classic? To me, this means preamps designed BEFORE transistor hifi!!

LOL!

[Allan Songer]

I was born in the Eisenhower administration, so I 'aint no spring chicken!

And I know where I was when JFK was assasinated!

[NOSValves]

Mark,

No your not offensive but you are very much argumentative and very much look like you want a fight to me at least.You never in the past treated me the way you have been for the last few weeks. I have no clue why and frankly at this point I do not care. I also really do not care to go on and on about something that is pretty well known. This discussion was about NOS 6DJ8's at least that was my take on it. Yes I made one error in my post when I stated it wasn't designed as a low noise tube. Although I for one believe manufacturers hype very little doesn't matter if it was printed in 1906 or 2006.

So Mark lets just put this plainly. NOS Tubes in the 6DJ8 family are a real pita to find quiet ones. I have not had much trouble myself with the noise produced by New production variants that I have tried. I prefer the sound of the NOS 6DJ8 just like your quoted marketing hype professes. I just simply deduce that since they test seriously strong and are noisy as all get out that they were short lived in the noise department. I have never seen this behavoir from any other family of tubes I commonly test. explain that? Is this an unreasonable train of thought? I think not. If you don't that is fine. When did you become the forum police??

Craig

[NOSValves]

Can you quit trying to bait me into debates? I care little to converse with you these days. Are we clear????

Craig

[NOSValves]

Can you quit trying to bait me into debates? I care little to converse with you these days. Are we clear????

Craig

You have a PM. Please honor my request. I really do not think its to much to ask.

[Clarence]

Can you quit trying to bait me into debates? I care little to converse with you these days. Are we clear????

Craig

jerk off.

[Parrot]

Mark,

It is well known in this forum that your BB preamp uses a 6DJ8. Your own description of the BB Extreme emphasized using classic old examples of this tube and indeed you shipped units with various NOS tubes for a while. So I am surprised that you are now effectively disowning NOS 6DJ8 tubes as not being truly New Old Stock (implying that most tube sellers are lying), and that you've found only one lot of genuine NOS in all of what I assume has been extensive purchasing. I am also surprised that you are saying that you are disinterested in this tube personally and are concerned with the tube purely on an academic matter.

I have read posts here in the past about purchasers of the 6DJ8 having to go through many examples before finding one quiet enough to use. It matters little if old spec sheets say they are superb if real-world examples of the 6DJ8 are shot. If you believe that examples manufactured only in modern times are worth using, this would have been useful information to pass on to your customers. Same for if you believe that rolling NOS examples is going to be a frustrating and potentially expensive experience.

[Deang]

I'm trying to figure out how a tube designed to be low noise, that is old, but tests 'new' -- can be noisy. I guess what I'm asking is what makes a tube 'noisy'?

[Allan Songer]

So why the 6922/6DJ8 instead of the 12AX7 in so many of the "modern" preamps? Has the 12AX7 gone out of fashion? I mean, they both do the same thing, right?

[Parrot]

I don't maintain personal relationships with tubes. Their interest to me is how they serve a purpose. That's surprising? My apologies then.

I have a feeling you are a year behind my advice to people.

And, of course, no post of yours would be complete without the false dichotomy.

"Personal relationship" with a tube does not mean that you're married to one or watch football games with one. It means in this context that your preamp uses one and you are thereby personally invested in the tube.

If I'm a year behind your advice, I'm confident that many BB owners are also a year behind your advice.

Naaahh, you're not at all interested in arguing or making personal slams, LOL! Just the non-interested, scientific observer above the fray, right?

[NOSValves]

So why the 6922/6DJ8 instead of the 12AX7 in so many of the "modern" preamps? Has the 12AX7 gone out of fashion? I mean, they both do the same thing, right?

Allan,

Now let me first Qualify this before anyone reads it. This is my opinion on most modern audio gear. I believe it to be my right to have that opinion. I also believe it to be my right to share this opinion on this forum with the folks I consider to my my friends or as Allan puts it Pals. I also believe it is my right to state my opinion without being drug into some long drawn out debate that I have little patience, talent, time or interest to participate in.

I believe most audio designers today are missing the mark by a huge margin and just focus on making something different to say or feel they did it or possibly to generate value and excitement around the product. I truly believe the audio designers of the 50's and 60's had more talent in there pinky finger then most of todays audio designers (In general terms and not meaning any one modern designer). Many 12AX7 and other tubes type preamps made back in the day and even today can and do sound very darn good. I have a Scott LC-21 that I could use for the rest of my life and never look back. I have many customers using the same or similar. I also just finished a great little EICO HF-85 super mod job that relieved just about every single short coming that product had for cost cutting measures of the market segment it serviced. I listened with complete joy to this baby for a straight week. Sad thing is the mods that were done first by another Technician buddy of mine in Canada then mine would send the real world cost of this preamp into the twilight zone LOL!! Does my other main preamp offer some things it didn't absolutely. By the same token it offered thing my normal preamp does not. One of the things it does offer is tube rolling of the Used Old Stock, New Old Stock or modern until the cows come home with reckless abandon. This is an absolute part of the tube audio world and no designer denying it is going to stop it with his products or anyone elses. No matter how much he tries. Total mountain climb for sure.

The one single disadvantage I have still had trouble working out in most of the Mid Fi based vintage preamps is they just simply have more available gain in the line stages then is required or needed for most of todays modern power amps. But trust me I'm working on it and right at the edge of finding the best solution in most cases.

Craig

[Parrot]

Parrot: "Naaahh, you're not at all interested in arguing or making personal

slams, LOL! Just the non-interested, scientific observer above the

fray, right?

MD: This is coming from a guy who will make hundreds of posts rebutting someone's preference for a SET amps! A person who will reply to every rebuttal with the exact same argument for the exact same "20W minimum amplifier". That's ok, I guess because you are doing it? That's not argumentative, right?

There you go again. The issue is not whether I like to argue or not; I do, nor whether I want to warn people against the limitations of low-watt amps; I do. The issue is that you are acting like you are above it all, when anyone can see that, as of late, you are actively and enthusiastically scrapping.

[kaiser SET say]

I just love this forum[] I also don't believe it's hard for any astute person to read any of the threads on these boards and see who for whatever reason must go on personal attacks vs. stating ones beliefs. I do know what I've been hearing and I know for a fact who's loosing more business day in and day out by putting their attitudes on the boards instead of contructive productivity. Of course the next statements will be I have all the business I need and that is a good thing for you[]

I know I have changed my mind and so have others I know regarless of how one has been rated in the past for their particular craftsmanship but there is a plethora of people and company's that do excellent work on vintage gear so it amazes me how people just shoot themselves in the foot basically over their own ego's[]

Pots calling the kettles black is for sure a [:'(] babies game and only hurts the ones that initiate such crap! What's a matter you don't KNOW what public means and how one should conduct themselves?

Listen to yourself in terms "I believe" because that is your right just as much as it is the person your speaking to to have their's also

Everybody believes something[]

[Parrot]

I am not sure what you are surprised at. I have been saying for more than a year that the NOS tube market was polluted with rubbish. Yes, when we began selling BlueBerry Xtreme we offered NOS tubes. I took the tube vendors at their word and began to buy these NOS tubes. However, when they arrived, they were suspiciously NOT looking or testing like NOS tubes. I tried many vendors, many tube sources and finally, and very quickly, I discontinued offering NOS tubes in that product. I hadn't bought NOS tubes in a long time and I was not pleased with what was on the market. I clearly spelled out the reasons to people, here and other places. It was taking more hours to actually procure and test and verify NOS tubes than it took to assemble the whole preamp. The number of actual NOS tubes I was getting as a percentage of the simply used tubes was tiny. Contrary to your assertion, I've never implied anyone was a liar, whether they be a seller or a vendor or dealer. I simply said that what they consider NOS, is to me very often just a used tube. NOS has become a generic term and it is widely misused to describe vintage tubes that test good on a tube tester. My opinion is that the term is being used incorrectly. Do you get pedigree with the NOS tubes you buy? I don't. I get a tube in a box that has been opened, or it has been repacked into someone else's box. Often these tubes test just fine but are noisy. Often the pins are scarred from being inserted, and the labels are worn off. How would that happen to a "NEW Old Stock" tube? They are noisy from being dropped into buckets at the recycle center, or after years of being bounced around in an oscilloscope.

. . . . .

Sadly all new tubes being made today are not as good as yesterday.

That however, has equal bearing on all tube types, not anything

specifically to do with 6DJ8s.

Okay, so we have a situation in which newly manufactured tubes aren't as good as old ones, but the old tube market is "polluted with rubbish." That doesn't appear to be a good situation.

[Parrot]

Paul--

Sorry, I'm not taking a trip back to 7th grade with you here. I am ok with what I posted.

LOL! You still don't get it! Your counter post is on the level of "don't call me a ******, you ******." I'm okay with what you posted, too. It's quite enlightening.

[Deang]

I can't figure out for the life of me what happened in this thread.

Craig: So I would say a 6DJ8 is more noise prone then many other small signal tubes. No big deal, most of the problem is with NOS and used NOS...I truly believe the 6DJ8 is just not a long lasting quiet tube like say a 12AX7 TFK.

Based on everything I've just read by you Mark, you apparently agree with Craig on the former -- and the only departure I see is that you believe the great majority of NOS are actually used NOS (and so are "noise prone" from being mishandled). If you take Craig's latter statement at face value, then you apparently agree with that as well! I didn't so much see Craig's statement as an indictment of the tube itself, but more of a 'how it is' factoid -- that by the time we get them, most are noisier than 12ax7's of the same approximate age (whether used or new). Craig just made a statement based on experience from his encounters with the tube. Bottom line: if you don't get new ones (old or new), they are probably going to have some noise -- and you offered a very good explanation as to why that is.

Craig and Paul. I'm getting emails from people asking me to reign you two in. What should I tell them? LOL!!