Digital Equalization For The Cornwall ?

[ka7niq]

As most here know by now, I have many pairs of speakers to play with.

Right now, I have the 78 Cornwall's hooked up.

I like these speakers, but I hear area's of possible improvement.

I remember asking Mark Levinson years ago what he thought was the ultimate speaker one could buy that was affordable, and widely available.

To my complete surprise, he said Klipschorns with the tweeters turned vertically.

He said they needed a bit of EQ, but he felt they sounded the most like live music, and said he had a pair configured like this.

And, so, I plan to try out some digital EQ on the Cornwalls.

I have a very nice sounding receiver, and JVC RX DP 9, and it has a 3 band digital Parametric EQ that is adjustable.

My biggest "gripe" with the Cornwalls is a SLIGHT shrillness on some female vocals.

Does anyone else hear this, and if so what is causing it, and where might I set the EQ to take care of it ?

Thanks, and any EQ tips would be appreciated too,

[Duke Spinner]

get rid of that mid horn

[DrWho]

If I remember correctly, the old squakers ring at 9kHz or somewhere around there - it's the result of the phase plugs. There were a bunch of measurements done recently detailing the differences between all the drivers. The downside is that by implementing EQ before the speakers, you are also going to decrease the output of the tweeter at 9kHz. I think you would be better off trying to tackle this problem in the crossover so you can address the squaker independantly. I'm sure all the crossover gurus would argue your caps are in need of replacement anyway.

But apart from the 9kHz glitch, the Cornwall squaker is also a bit "honky tonky" when compared to other squakers available on the market. It most readily reveals itself on female vocals, which seems to be inline with your impressions. If you have the funds (and some form of measuring equipment), I would recommend pursuing a nice tractrix squaker. Or for a simpler approach, you might try replacing your cornwalls with a pair of Chorus II or Forte II (which both have tractrix squakers).

[ka7niq]

It really sounds quite nice at lower levels, it's just when I lean into it a bit that it gets objectional.

I stopped in to the computer room for a second, and the JVC is up on the shelf, awaiting hookup.

It has on screen display of it's EQ control, so I gotta hook it into the Big Screen too.

It's all remote control for the EQ!

There is "something about the Cornwalls" I like.

I bet the caps do need replacing too ?

The previous owner said he replaced tweeter diapraghms, but highs sound a little subdued.

Anyone know if 78 Cornwall's used electrolytic ?

If so, they are probably gone.

WHAT does an aging cap do, sound wise ?

[ka7niq]

get rid of that mid horn

The driver too ?

Or, just the horn ?

[Duke Spinner]

it's the horn that annoys me...

whaddabout BEC's CornScala horn ..??

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Funny you posted this. Today I put my Behringer DEQ2496 back into my system. I ran the pink noise with the mic and it does sound smoother with the correction curve. I couldn't tell the midrange was off but the EQ helped. Great unit and for $250 you can't lose. I am not saying that this can make up for you squaker (I am not using horns).

[ka7niq]

it's the horn that annoys me...

whaddabout BEC's CornScala horn ..??

Wow Duke, digital EQ makes a big difference.

The JVC is really cool, for a receiver, it weighs 55 lbs.

The EQ splits the freq range into 3 bands, and the width of those bands are adjustable, allowing you to almost re voice the speaker.

I wind up with the range from 630 hz to 2.5 K cut 4 db, then from 2.5 to 10K, it's cut from 4 to 6 DB.

I wish I knew the exact slopes, but the GD thing amost allows for complete re voicing of the Cornwalls!

Don't quite have a tube sound, but I will fix that!

I have an all tube DAC with some sickly sweet old Mullards in it that an old Ham gave me!

Mark Levinson was right from what I am hearing, these speakers simply need a bit of EQ, and as long as it is done in the digital domain, there is a whole new set of rules.

My big Von Schweikert Vortex Screen Prototypes did not escape my scrutinty.

They sound good, but I felt they could have been voiced a little different for my tastes/room.

To my complete suprise, Albert suggested I get digital EQ !

Now Duke, I am almost "allergic" to Tone Controls, like most high end audiophiles are.

I want a straight wire with gain, LOL

But Albert Von Schweikert assured me that he could hear no penalty in digital EQ was done right.

I want to go back and listen to the Re Voiced Cornwalls, see ya in a bit ?

[Guest " "]

"it's the horn that annoys me..."

if you swap them out for cornscala horns, keep me in mind, I am looking for some k-600's.

[ka7niq]

"it's the horn that annoys me..."

if you swap them out for cornscala horns, keep me in mind, I am looking for some k-600's.

What is a cornscala horn ?

[boom3]

The mid horn certainly is not optimum, but changing it out means you no longer have a Cornwal, now a Corn something else, which is OK if that's what you want. You might consider changing the mid and tweeter units to the CW II K57/K79 models. The CW II is believed by many to have better midrange and treble than the CW Is. However, the K57/K79 units are somewahat rare compared to the K55/K77s. Bob Crites CT125 is a drop-in upgrade for the K77, I like it much better than the K77.

To my ears the worst part of the Cornwalls response is the 80 Hz or so hump in the bass. I tamed this partly by pulling my Corns out of the corners, about 2 feet. I also have that Yamaha YPAO program, not a perfect EQ but I think, with a degree of manual tweaking within the settings, it helps. What really tamed this boom was putting a sub in the system, uusing the THX recommend crossover at 80 Hz.

[ka7niq]

The mid horn certainly is not optimum, but changing it out means you no longer have a Cornwal, now a Corn something else, which is OK if that's what you want. You might consider changing the mid and tweeter units to the CW II K57/K79 models. The CW II is believed by many to have better midrange and treble than the CW Is. However, the K57/K79 units are somewahat rare compared to the K55/K77s. Bob Crites CT125 is a drop-in upgrade for the K77, I like it much better than the K77.

To my ears the worst part of the Cornwalls response is the 80 Hz or so hump in the bass. I tamed this partly by pulling my Corns out of the corners, about 2 feet. I also have that Yamaha YPAO program, not a perfect EQ but I think, with a degree of manual tweaking within the settings, it helps. What really tamed this boom was putting a sub in the system, uusing the THX recommend crossover at 80 Hz.

My JVC has only a 3 band Parametric EQ, but it it remotely operated with OSD.

This lets you watch on the Widescreen as you listen to what you are doing.

I have seen for myself what Albert Von Schweikert has been trying to tell me for so long.

You really CAN make a speaker sound however you want, as long as sources are in digital domain.

I can see that my future lies with whatever component that will allow me to remotely control digital equalization the most completely.

That rules out the Behringer, UNLESS you want it sitting right next to you, LOL

[ka7niq]

"it's the horn that annoys me..."

if you swap them out for cornscala horns, keep me in mind, I am looking for some k-600's.

My Cornwalls are 1978, so what innards do i have ?

Are they metal horns ?

Of course we will always want to make our speakers as good as we can, but IMHO, the days of searching for that "magic" amp/preamp/wire etc may be slowing down a bit ?

Digital EQ is a powerful tool, and I think the future of audio.

I think many differences we hear in amps are frequency response related.

Of course, LOW Distortion, particulary IM, will always be desirable, as will the amps stability, and clipping characteristics.

And, I am not saying we should rely ENTIRELY on Digital EQ either.

But digital EQ is a powerful tool IMHO, to take you to the next level

[garyrc]

I think the Cornwall nonmetallic horns came in about 1987, when the Khorn ones did.

The caps probably do need replacing.

As to Levinson, I know one of his associates, John Curl (now still at Parasound?) started with Klipshorns at Berkeley Custom Electronics.

I've long thought that Klipshorns produce the nearest sound to the live orchestras I used to play in, in ways specs don't reveal, but ears do. Yes, they need a little EQ -- the fiberglass horn Klipsch now has, and the steeper crossovers (in the case of Khorns, the AK-4) that get rid of the Mid-horn response before it reaches the ringing point Dr. Who mentions (it now deep sixes about an octave below) help a lot.

But what I'm really hoping for is the DEQX -- I think it requires tri-amping (maybe it can be inserted earlier in the chain ????) -- but with very versatile EQ and phase correction, it might be just the ticket!

Someone on the forum was trying them, but I forget who it was ..... please identify yourself, and update us!

But then again, maybe the phase anomalies lend some of that brain tricking sound that makes the Khorns sound orchestral "in ways specs don't reveal, but ears do." Two clues:

1) Once there was a to be unnamed but world famous recording studio in San Francisco where the engineers raved about the great sound of the unadvertised upgrade to the Altec professional coaxes they were using as monitors -- I think they were 604 Es -- until they discovered that the whole batch had been miswired so that the midrange/tweeter units were out of phase with the woofers.

2) There were various popular devices in the 80s that "improved" the sound -- made it more spatial -- by throwing it slightly out of phase. Wasn't one called something like the Aphex Aural Enhancer?

But I doubt that phase problems are responsible for the Khorns' remarkably "live" sound, just thought I'd mention it.

[DrWho]

I believe "sfogg" is the guy you're looking for. I believe he did some crazy super steep crossovers with the DEQX on his triamped lascalas. And don't forget about the improvements with time-alignment when you go with active crossovers.

As far as your analogy - the result of the outta phase drivers would be a dip in the frequency response throughout the crossover region. Take any recording / any song and notch out a little of the midrange with EQ and at first it will sound better. It always does (within reason) unless you're comparing directly against a live sound. Sounds like yet another example where the wonderful world of psychoacoustics even applies to the engineers in the studio []

[ka7niq]

Gary, I haven't had a lot of luck with the two pairs of Klipschorns I have owned.

I thought they make violins sound very screechy, and have a tubby, wooden sounding lower midrange coloration.

They would not be my first choice for reproducing classical music.

But, then it may have been my room, and I didn't try EQ either.

I also own B&W Matrix 801's, now THEY sound like music, and violins sound like violins on them.

I like the low distortion, and high efficiency of some Klipsch speakers, and the results of my digital EQ listening sessions on the Cornwalls was real promising.

So promising in fact that I unhooked them, and put my big VMPS RM 40's in their place.

I currently own 12 pairs of high end speakers.

The VMPS RM 40 is a 6 foot tall ribbon based speaker, and BOY does it ever respond to digital EQ.

It needed a little "help" in the 175 to 250 hz range, and I "induced" a slight warmth curve starting at 3.5 K, and gently sloping down about a db or two until 16K.

Man, what a sound !

They will play loud too, and very low in distortion

[garyrc]

ka7niq

I have heard Klipschorns sound screechy on strings occasionally --- I attributed it to the recording, or over-close micing, because they usually sound fine. I haven't heard Khorns sound tubby in the two houses I've had them in.

Others on this forum mentioned that the AK - 4 Klipschorn is sweeter and less "hard" sounding than the AK- 2. I don't think I've heard the AK-2. I originally had either A or AA (1982).

It's interesting that you mention the B & W 801 --- When I originally picked the Khorns, I did so after a several day stand off against whatever B & W 801 was around in '82 ... it may have been the F ... anyway it was the runner-up to the Khorn, after eliminating Canton, Altec, Bozak, Bose, Magnapan, Acoustat, DCM, and many others. It was a very close call, between two very different sounding speakers. I actually found it rather disturbing, because the choice could have gone either way. The B & W seemed very well balanced, more forgiving of bad recordings, very "musical," and never gave offense. The Klipschorn sounded more "there" and "live" and "immediate," and captured more of the excitement and air of the orchestra, especially on very dynamic material. And on some string recordings, the live, gutty, rosiny, detailed sheen of the strings came through more forcefully.

Now, with our stereo system doubling as a simple Home Theatre, I love some of the dynamic movie soundtracks, and wonder if the B & W would have sounded as exciting.

Ribbon speakers can sound beautiful, as can ribbon microphones.

Now to look up sfogg, thanks to Dr. Who!

[Colin]

DRWho is correct, the Corns do have a narrow throat, which can sound harsch in the upper mid-range, but going to a very similair Chorus or smaller Forte is going sideways or backwards. Instead, move forward by damping the mid-range horn, or upgrading it to a Altec 511B or ALK trachorn, or improve the crossover with a DeanG or ALK crossover.

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Harmon kardon has a white paper on EQ and how it helps with corrections that room treatments can NOT. I love my Beringer DEQ2496.

Corns are NOT the mighty Klipsch classic corner horns. They have neither the large mid-range horn or the folded horn deep and more accurate bass bin.

Would love to hear any of your systems

[ka7niq]

ka7niq

I have heard Klipschorns sound screechy on strings occasionally --- I attributed it to the recording, or over-close miking, because they usually sound fine. I haven't heard Horns sound tubby in the two houses I've had them in.

Others on this forum mentioned that the AK - 4 Klipschorn is sweeter and less "hard" sounding than the AK- 2. I don't think I've heard the AK-2. I originally had either A or AA (1982).

It's interesting that you mention the B & W 801 --- When I originally picked the Thorns, I did so after a several day stand off against whatever B & W 801 was around in '82 ... it may have been the F ... anyway it was the runner-up to the Khorn, after eliminating Canton, Altec, Bozak, Bose, Magnepan, Acoustat, DCM, and many others. It was a very close call, between two very different sounding speakers. I actually found it rather disturbing, because the choice could have gone either way. The B & W seemed very well balanced, more forgiving of bad recordings, very "musical," and never gave offense. The Klipschorn sounded more "there" and "live" and "immediate," and captured more of the excitement and air of the orchestra, especially on very dynamic material. And on some string recordings, the live, gutty, rosiny, detailed sheen of the strings came through more forcefully.

Now, with our stereo system doubling as a simple Home Theatre, I love some of the dynamic movie soundtracks, and wonder if the B & W would have sounded as exciting.

Ribbon speakers can sound beautiful, as can ribbon microphones.

Now to look up song, thanks to Dr. Who!

My Grandpa had Horns, and I don't remember them sounding screechy either.

But Gramps listened to a lot of Polka and Marching Band stuff, you know Sousa and the University Of Michigan Fight song type stuff, and Notre Dame too.

Maybe it was my rooms, or amps, etc.

I just never had any luck with then Klipschorns.

My old Cornwall's sound better, in this room, and I preferred the Forte's too.

This rooms corners are 20 feet apart, and I sit 16 feet away.

The Cornwalls work well.

Back to the 801's, I have owned the F's, but the Matrix is a whole new ball game.

Listening to Bob Seegers song "The fire inside" , there is an electric piano solo.

The Cornwalls are unmatched in reproducing this, it sounds like you are in a bar and someone is playing a piano right in front of you.

The 801's are more "polite" sounding.

As I told you, I have the digital EQ on the VMPS RM 40's right now.

They need a LOT of power, but IMHO combine the smoothness of the 801's, and the tremendous detail of a horn.

They just cannot match the

lively" sound of a horn speaker, even with a ton of juice, but they image incredibly, and have about zero coloration in comparison to MOST horns I have heard.

Now, I have heard Western Electric systems .....and Zingali's, and Avant Gards.

I really wished I had not sold the old Forte;s I had.

I completely re capped them, and they sounded great, but JUST a little "edgy".

With some Digital EQ, they MIGHT have been "the ones" ?

But, they were small, and looked "lost" in my wide room.

BTW, digital EQ has changed me, for good.

I really wish I had learned about it sooner.

I had several good speakers with flaws I could not live with.

I see now i might have ":fixed" them with digital EQ.

The CF 3's are next to get the "digital workover", but honestly, right now the VMPS RM 40's sound so good it's scary.

Besides, I am a LITTLE "upset" with the "Bodcaw boy", at the moment, LOL

So, his "punishment" shall be to have his CF 3's shoved into a corner.

I was so "mad" at him I purposely even faced the unhooked CF 3's into the corner.

That's what my dad did to me when I was "bad".

[ka7niq]

DRWho is correct, the Corns do have a narrow throat, which can sound harsch in the upper mid-range, but going to a very similair Chorus or smaller Forte is going sideways or backwards. Instead, move forward by damping the mid-range horn, or upgrading it to a Altec 511B or ALK trachorn, or improve the crossover with a DeanG or ALK crossover.

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Harmon kardon has a white paper on EQ and how it helps with corrections that room treatments can NOT. I love my Beringer DEQ2496.

Corns are NOT the mighty Klipsch classic corner horns. They have neither the large mid-range horn or the folded horn deep and more accurate bass bin.

Would love to hear any of your systems

Hello Colin!

I am in Brandon Florida, east of tampa.

Thank you for setting me straight on the Cornwalls.

I was undeer mistaken belief that they were a Khor with a conventional woofer ?

I did not realize the midrange horn was different.

Where do you get Harman Kardon EQ paper ?