Speaker placement and the all important effect on sound quality

[TheEAR]

While viewing the many pages of systems the Klipsch forum members posted one thing hit me. Why are speakers(mains) so close to the wall? This creates a very negative effect on the sound you will hear in most cases. With the Klipsch Horn you have a sepaker that was designed to be used in a corner,against both walls. With traditional speakers you deteriorate the overall sound and add bass anomalies,you hear more of the room and less of the speakers!

Any well configured system will have speakers positioned at least 3-4 feet from the wall they are against.And 2-3 from the side walls. I have experimented and did listen to countless systems.Each time mains were positioned close to the wall(less than 3 feet),no matter what gear was used the sound did suffer.

Also putting L/R mains in corners or close is the other grotesque mistake,as room induced irregularities will be more aparent then ever.I am surprised how many can stand these irregularities and accept them.

In the wonderful world of Hi Fi the goal is to have the most natural sound possible,not diformation and added colorations.

Also using an EQ to compensate is a very flawed aproach,as you DISTORT the original signal trying to compensate for a bad setup(negative effect of room acoustics).Ending with a signal that has nothing to do with high fidelity,accuracy is gone. As the signal is not even true to the original anymore.

Same thing with subwoofers,the closer you place them to walls,the more you stuff them in corners.The more room gain you'll get,the more room you will hear.

The extra gain in SPL you get from placing subs in corners is microscopic compared to the loss in sound quality in most cases! Unless setup and tune up is done by a sound engineer who know what he is doing,and has measuring gear in hand. To use subs placed in corners or close to corners to good effect you need multiples.

Just a tiny Sunday night rant...now...stop sticking mains close to walls,and you will all improve the sound quality.

Merry Christmas Klipschers

[DrWho]

I disagree.

http://www.peavey.com/support/technotes/soundsystems/boundarycancellation.cfm

-basically, putting your speakers 2-4 feet from any wall is going to
cause a suckout in the 80-100Hz region. Yes, it sounds "tighter"
because that's what -3dB at 80Hz sounds like [6]

Corner loading also improves the power response of the system.
The improved directivity of the low frequency information also comes
with an often much needed boost in the low frequency output - moreso
the smaller the speaker is (ala Heresy). Also, an improved power
response almost always correlates to a more natural semi-reverberant
field (an easy check is to listen in an adjacent room and note tonal
balance). And lastly, corner-loading is going to increase the number of
modes being excited by the speaker. Increasing the number of modes is
going to increase the modal density (which is a good thing) - and in a
good room the distribution is going to be such that the problem
frequencies get pushed lower in frequency (netting an improvement on
the system as a whole).

The only downside to corner loading is
when it decreases the ISD (the time between the direct sound and the
first early reflection). However, this is only an issue when the
directivity of the speaker is such that early reflections actually
occur. This is usually the case with direct-radiating speakers, but not
usually the case with horns (where the directivity is well controlled).
The lower wavelengths of the direct-radiators are too long to introduce
comb-filtering so it's really only an issue with the squawker/tweeter.
If the KHorn works just fine in the corner, then the lascala is going
to be fine in the corner. In fact, any speaker with similar MF/HF
directivity is going to be fine in the corner.

PWK mentions a few
times in the Dope From Hope the advantages of putting speakers in the
corners - and also the advantages of a 90 degree arc between the mains
(45 degree toe-in). I can think of a few other sources, not to mention
every measurement I've seen supports putting speakers into the corner.

And
for the sake of stating it, none of what I've said is meant to be
interpreted as stating that a speaker can't sound better out of the
corner. We have non-ideal environments with a lot of non-ideal
variables. Choosing the best compromise of these variables is the best
we can do. But that said, it's much easier to address the ISD issues
associated with corner loading than trying to address all of the other
issues associated with pulling the speaker out of the corner.

My point is that such gross generalizations cannot be made.

[colterphoto1]

Corners make it louder, not necessarily better. I agree with the earlier posts somewhat. Definitely agreed that EQ cannot tame room anomalies for the most part.

Many times with corner placement the emphasis is on a narrow band of frequencies and corner placement can actually deteriorate the performance of our products. Although the 45 degree toe-in can prevent early reflections from sidewalls, the cabinet still need not be placed in the absolute corner of the room in order to do so.(except in the case of the Mighty Klipschorn).

Many models have rear passive radiators or ports, and those should be pulled out somewhat from the wall or corner. Suggested is 3" from the side walls for corner placement as a starting point. However, pulling Klipsch speakers well away from the wall is not suggested in most cases.

Bottom line: know the rules but be prepared to break them. There is no substitute for experimentation and critical listening.

[theplummer]

The thing I've noticed most in the photos is that most listening environments are too small to do what needs to be done. My home is NO exception. My listening room is the living room portion of the "Great Room" (if a 1190 square foot house can even have a great room). I see a lot of furniture in these rooms, improper seating locations, and generally "poor" listening environments. Again, my home is no different. Your lucky to get more than ONE "Moneyseat" in any givin "real world environment".

Let's face it Square footage costs $$$$$. Dedicated listening rooms are typically not user friendly. They're away from the day to day family doings, usually in a basement (not to mention what concrete walls and floors do to destroy room accoustics). Therefore you've spent Thousands of dollars only to park your prize audio equipment in a room that you have to make a concious decision to go use, in a particular place away from the rest of the family, adding to the deterioration of the family. I'm not nocking anyone who has a dedicated listening room, but unless your family feels the way you do about what is being played at the same time, I doubt they're going to stay in a room with you that is not also user friendly to them.

So, Play on, keep your equipment in your main living area and everyone can enjoy it. Even with all the bad listening environments.

[wuzzzer]

I really wish I had a larger area to work with in my home for my audio setup. My main basement room is only 10 feet wide. I did have the stereo set up along the long wall for a time, but we had to sit so close to the TV and we couldn't really set up other chairs so that more than a couple of people could watch TV at the same time I decided to move everything back to the short wall.

I have 2" acoustic wedge foam on the side walls to lessen early reflections. I've always had my speakers butted right up to the walls so that they had the maximum separation between the two of them. Maybe today I'll do some experimenting with positioning and see what sounds best.

[Jay481985]

I experimented with what drwho described without him telling me to do so before....

I have a 10X15 dorm room. At first I had my rf-83 on the 15 foot wall with 8 feet inbetween. It sounded fine but there was something missing.

I then placed them in the corner of the 10 foot wall and then put them nearly 45 degrees. The sound though different sounded to me a bit more correct, I thought and thought and went oh!!!! the bass its back!!!!!! [] but I consulted drwho which i thought would say omg wtf but he said he prefers them in the corner and such. Again though the bass is a little boomy now but its defined which is a bit more important to me than lack of bass. BTW a thing drwho said that I think is true is that all klipsch speakers are tested in 1/8 space.

[TheEAR]

Well designed speakers do not need to be placed very close to walls to have a flat response(read dips around 80hz). I have used Klipsch RB5,RF5 and RF7's placed a meter from the side walls and 4 feet in the room(from the back wall,to the speakers).Guess what the curve is very flat at listening position,as was verified with TrueRTA(what a great program).

I did place them in corners,and yes at a 45 degree toe in,I did not like the result and TrueRTA....a bump around 60Hz range in the small room!

Anemic amps will gain from wall proximity,muscular amps deliver the goods to speakers where needed and wall proximity has a negative impact on sound(again not all speakers as some speakers are deigned to perform best when corner loaded).This may sound like a joke but remember most people use receivers,anemic amplification is found in most of them!

To each his preference,I value the sound of the speakers above the sound of the room.The closer you place speakers and sit close to the walls,the more you hear your room.And we know rooms play many tricks on the end result.

In any case thanks for reading. And happy holidays to all. []

PS Today was a ...day of work! I decided to move my subs and speakers and reposition them...[:'(] Started around 1:00PM and almost finished the first room,I may put a brake on purchasing big and heavy gear. My back is killing me now.At least it sounds damn good,better than ever. My ideas gathering online on room effects and acoustics has proven a big plus.

[DrWho]

Just because a speaker sounds better in the corner doen't mean the amplification (or anything else upstream) is at fault either (or the listener for that matter). It just means that location better fits the rest of the behavior of the system.

Nevertheless, there is certainly something to be said for the nearfield listening environment. I was going to mention that just about every serious studio mounts their far-field monitors in the front corners of the room. But they're also going to have a pair of near-fields right up in your face. It's two very different sounds and each has its own advantages. I just happen to be a bigger fan of the far-field (since most of my live music listening also occurs in the far-field).

[Jay481985]

i have rf-83 at 3 feet does that count? []

[Colin]

In my experience with a dozen speakers, seriously auditioned in my own home, moving speakers away from walls definitely improves their soundstage and imaging; increasing the illusion of a 3D sonic holograph of the singer and primary instruments. It is one of the biggest and least expensive improvements that tweaking audiophiles can make to modest systems.

Most stereo owners do NOT angle their cone or big ole horns properly

Most homes have no where the space needed to create good HT or music listening environment: the market needs a good 7.1 channel, tube and solid-state powered, TV helmet and chair with built-in bass shaker combination most of us have near-field systems whether we want to or not

Foam on the walls does little to attenuate serious room anomalies except to cut the highest frequencies

[chitown2477]

This debate seems to talk about what not to do as opposed to first stating what the ideal thing to do is the right speaker placement. Please explain what you think is the best or "ideal" placement. I would really like to leverage this feedback.

For example, I have the center channel (RC-52) directly above my 50" DLP and I understand directly be low is OK and the literally behind the screen is optimal. For the front left and right, I have towers (RF-52's) that are about 4 feet' from the center speaker and therefore about 8 feet from each other. They are also toed in a few degrees and about 10 feet from the seating position. The tower tweeters are not at the same level as the center speaker tweeter as this is impossible to do in my setup though I also understand this is optimal. My seating position is nearly centered on the TV. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

The rear surrounds (RS-42's) are just beside the listening position and about 7 feet off the ground. This is the null zone that is optimal for the bi/dipole speakers. I have a rear center channel speaker on a stand just behind the seating position at ear level. It is an old Yamaha that really needs upgrading to match my other speakers.

I also use a red laser light to ensure that center and front L/R speakers are angled towards the listener. My sub is just to the left my left front tower. Both towers are very close to the wall (about 1 foot from the side and 1.5 feet from the rear). Personally I don't think this makes a difference in sound for the towers but definitely for the sub. I have all speakers set on "small" with all bass under 80 going to the sub.

[DrWho]

In an ideal room with big floorstanding speakers, the ideal location
is in the corner because that is the position that maximizes
efficiency, minimizes distortion, and provides the widest image. You
just need to ensure that the directivity is controlled such that early
side reflections do not become an issue.

chitown, you might want
to experiment with speaker toe-in that doesn't point the on-axis
directly at the main listening position. Since you already have a
laser, one thing you might consider would be to shine the laser down
the off-axis direction of the speaker at half its nominal coverage
pattern. I believe the RF series speakers are nominally 90x60, so you
would want to point the laser at 45 degrees off center from the
main-axis. Then sit in the main listening position and have someone put
a mirror on the wall until you can see the tweeter on the speaker. You
will want the laser pointer to shine beyond the mirror (more towards
the back of the room), which is going to push the early side
reflections away from the listening position. The tradeoff is that if
you have to toe the speaker in too far to achieve this, you're going to
end up with less high frequency information at the listening position
due to the beaming at the higher frequencies. Unless constant
directivity speakers are being used, the higher frequencies aren't
going to spread as wide as the lower frequencies. In the end you
usually need to toe the speakers in as far as possible without losing
HF content (since the on-axis is arguably more important than the
off-axis).

Anyways, I don't propose this as an approach to
finding the best position, but to illustrate the importance of
minimizing early reflections.

But in a real room, the corner
isn't always going to be ideal. The modal distribution is quite complex
and all over the place. Moving a speaker as much as a few inches can
have a +-10dB effect at the listening position. [] In an ideal room,
we don't have these issues so it's good to take advantage of the
positive benefits to corner loading. But in a real room, sometimes the
speaker needs to get pulled out to help reduce them. This isn't a very
bad thing either, because the corner loading gains at the lower
frequencies don't change much because the wavelengths are so large
anyway.

The basic rule of thumb I would propose is to start with
the speaker in the corner. Point it right at the listening position.
Then pull the speaker down the axis towards the listener until any
boominess goes away. Then play with the toe-in of the speaker, making
the sound cross in front of the listening position until the high
frequencies sound reduced. Somewhere in between these two extremes is
probably going to sound ideal, but you'll have to play with it. In some
rare cases, people will prefer the sound crossing behind the listening
position...of all the instances I can recall, there have been some odd room geometries involved.

[TheEAR]

Ideal,no such thing as an ideal position for speakers in all rooms.Each room,speakers and sitting and personal preference will affect what is ideal for the owner. I prefer the nearfield monitoring sound of speakers. Even my RF7's are no furher than 6' away from me,my Dynes S5.4,also 6' away. Almost all of my speakers are 2-3 meters away,save for subs as some are up to 4 meters away.

I want to hear the performance,not my room(at least as little as possible).

"The basic rule of thumb I would propose is to start with the speaker in the corner. Point it right at the listening position. Then pull the speaker down the axis towards the listener until any boominess goes away."

Very good tip for many,easy and a worthy try for anyone with a few spare minutes to try.

[jrios212]

my speakers (rb-75) are about 3 feet from the back wall and 2 feet from the side walls and i definitely have a dip (~5db) from about 80 - 120 HZ.  other than that it's pretty flat. dammit ...i guess i'm experiencing boundary cancellation.  but then again ... won't i experience that at any distance but just with different frequencies affected?

anyway, i love reading about this stuff. i just bought my speakers about 3 months ago and really love them, however sometime i wonder if i was happier when i had less quality speakers.  sometimes i find myself getting so wrapped up in all this audio stuff and am becoming so critical that i've forgotten to just stop and enjoy my speakers.  damn, they sound good wherever i put them and i don't think they'll ever be perfect.

i'm not going to mess with them for awhile and just enjoy them without worring that i'm missing something. "ignorance is bliss" 

jacob

[Arky]

In a lot of ways, that's a good attitude to have.

[Jay481985]

lets all buy bose now!

[jrios212]

lets all buy bose now!

i never said anything about wanting to buy over priced equipment.  that was not my point.

[darylomer12]

sometimes i find myself getting so wrapped up in all this audio stuff and am becoming so critical that i've forgotten to just stop and enjoy my speakers. damn, they sound good wherever i put them and i don't think they'll ever be perfect.

i'm not going to mess with them for awhile and just enjoy them without worring that i'm missing something.

jacob

Very well said Jacob!!! I agree 100%.....[Y]

[TheEAR]

Ignorance is bliss,as long as you are one happy camper. Take the blue pill or take the red pill. Me I do not want wonderland,I want the truth exposed. []

Since a few days I am re arranging my speakers and subs,very interesting gains I have made. Best upgrade ever,costs $0 in gear only a few many hours of my vaccation time.

[Jay481985]

lets all buy bose now!

i never said anything about wanting to buy over priced equipment. that was not my point.

I was kidding (sarcasim is bliss online)