Question For NOSValves or...? Capacitor Upgrade

[WPM]

Appealing to the knowledge of Craig, or anyone who has experience with upgrading capacitors in tube amplifiers. In regards to paper in oil caps, such as the Jensen's or the Russian Film Foil Oil's that you use, Craig, what can one expect to gain, sound quality wise, over using the poly-types? I am thinking of having my Horn Mono's upgraded with oils, but would like to hear from the experts whether this upgrade is worth while. Thanks for your feedback.

William

[leok]

It's a difficult call. I've tried Jensens and Hovland (and others) in both the pp and set amps. Others were easy to rule out. I finally settled on the Hovland Musicaps in both. They sound more natural and detail is improved.

Leo

[Tarheel]

Hi William.....can't answer your question but thought I would mention the 3 sets of Quicksilver Audio amps on Audiogon.com. A set of horn monos, a set of silver 60s, and a set of vo4s all at about half the retail price! Go to tube amps and then look under classifieds.

Chuck

[WPM]

It's a difficult call. I've tried Jensens and Hovland (and others) in both the pp and set amps. Others were easy to rule out. I finally settled on the Hovland Musicaps in both. They sound more natural and detail is improved. Leo

Hi Leo,

Thanks for your input. It's a tough call without having heard them. I suppose in true DIY fashion I could just try both and decide for myself. The soldering is not a problem, it's just the idea of having to go through two types of caps. Cheers!

William

[WPM]

Hi William.....can't answer your question but thought I would mention the 3 sets of Quicksilver Audio amps on Audiogon.com. A set of horn monos, a set of silver 60s, and a set of vo4s all at about half the retail price! Go to tube amps and then look under classifieds.

Chuck

Hi Chuck,

I just took a look at the ads you mentioned. The V-4s are very tempting, but would be severe overkill on my Cornwalls. Hmmm, I could get a pair of Magnepan MG-3.6s to go with them! Sorry, wrong forum. So, Chuck, how's your rig sounding these days? Have you ever had the urge to mod your Quickies?

William

[anarchist]

Large review of caps

While not included in the review above, do they get prettier than this tho'? That beauty comes with a very high price tag however.

[3dzapper]

If you are looking for more "warmth", Jensens are the way to go. I love them in my SET amps. For a more "etched" presentation, any of the above mentioned brands of film and foil caps plus several more brands are available to try.

Those teflons that Robert cited are dear. Both in presentation and price.[]

Rick

[Deang]

The posted pic is of the OIMP version, not the Teflon. They don't look that pretty in real life. Kind of like the difference between a Big Mac shown in an ad and what you see when you buy one and flip the lid open. They still look very nice however. Hermetically sealed in a brass canister, nice soldered lead terminations, and plenty of mojo -- great caps. This is in crossovers, I have no idea how they sound in amps.

[WPM]

Large review of caps

While not included in the review above, do they get prettier than this tho'? That beauty comes with a very high price tag however.

Anarchist,

Thanks for including that very informative review. I now have some other options to poll from. I was surprised to read about the relatively short lifespan of the Jensen caps, I had never heard that before, so that is is definetly going to be a concern. Still, of all the caps on review, the Jensen's seem to offer the characteristics I am looking for in a cap. I can see where the V-cap is becoming so popular, though, with all its attributes; however, my system really doesn't need any more resolution or clarity, as the Cornwall's offer as much as I will ever need. Choices, choices. Again, thanks.

William

[WPM]

If you are looking for more "warmth", Jensens are the way to go. I love them in my SET amps. For a more "etched" presentation, any of the above mentioned brands of film and foil caps plus several more brands are available to try.

Those teflons that Robert cited are dear. Both in presentation and price.[]

Rick

Hi Rick,

I think you're right. I will most likely go with the Jensen's. Resolution and and clarity is something I do not need any more of. Not that my system sounds etched, mind, far from it. I just feel I can improve upon an already great sound with a modest cap change. Thanks for your input.

William

[NOSValves]

The QS lower cost amps are dead simple almost to a fault IMHO. I wouldn't hessitate to upgrade the caps if I was you but don't expect miracle changes in sound. Also give whatever you try at least 100 hours to break in and with any TFT type 500 hours! The options are endless and the opinions will be also. V-cap TFT will indeed set you back a bundle. Sonicap platinuims would be another TFT option that costs less but still pricey. The Russian film and foils would be a great bargain upgrade but sourcing can be fun these days (very few of the Russian caps are really PIO's). Jensen's PIO's will warm things up for sure. I'm sure I will get some frowns out of this comment but it would surprise me knowing what I do about QS designs that I would describe the horn mono's as super horn freindly in my book.

I've replace the QS V-4's with VRD's on speakers "Von Schweikert's" that could use the near double power they make over the VRD's and the customers was not dissapointed in the VRD's except when cranking thing up past the VRD amps abilities.

Craig

[WPM]

The QS lower cost amps are dead simple almost to a fault IMHO. I wouldn't hessitate to upgrade the caps if I was you but don't expect miracle changes in sound. Also give whatever you try at least 100 hours to break in and with any TFT type 500 hours! The options are endless and the opinions will be also. V-cap TFT will indeed set you back a bundle. Sonicap platinuims would be another TFT option that costs less but still pricey. The Russian film and foils would be a great bargain upgrade but sourcing can be fun these days (very few of the Russian caps are really PIO's). Jensen's PIO's will warm things up for sure. I'm sure I will get some frowns out of this comment but it would surprise me knowing what I do about QS designs that I would describe the horn mono's as super horn freindly in my book.

I've replace the QS V-4's with VRD's on speakers "Von Schweikert's" that could use the near double power they make over the VRD's and the customers was not dissapointed in the VRD's except when cranking thing up past the VRD amps abilities.

Craig

Hi Craig,

Indeed, you are correct... the QS amps have a very simple design and literally lend themselves to mods/upgrades. I think they basically sound pretty good, as is, but they can certainly be improved upon. That's the trouble when components are built to a price point... something has to suffer. With the QS amps it must be in the caps and resistors, as their transformers are of very high quality, which, in my opinion, is where it matters most. Everything else can be addressed by the DIYer. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

I love the idea of the Jensen's, but the 250 hour lifespan scares me to death. I double checked the Jensen website and, sure enough, it's posted right there. I can put 250 hours on my amps in a few months, and I just can't see me soldering in new caps every quarter, that's just insane. I've heard about these German made PIO caps called M-Caps, and am trying to get some info regarding their lifespan. Perhaps they will last a bit longer than the Jensen's? Still, I may have to give something a try or I'll never know. I may go ahead and replace the resistors in the amps with Riken Ohms, as well, as there are very few of them inside the amps, too.

I appreciate you chiming in, Craig, as I knew you'd give it to me straight. And thanks to everyone else for sharing your comments, too. If, and when, I do undertake this little mod project, I will be sure to post my findings. I'm sure Chuck will be very interested.

William

[Deang]

I love the idea of the Jensen's, but the 250 hour lifespan scares me to death.

There are four different lifespan 'specifications'. One of them is how long you should expect the cap to work right after its been hit with something like two or three times above its rated voltage. At any rate, you can expect a Jensen of the proper voltage rating to last 20 years or more.

[WPM]

I love the idea of the Jensen's, but the 250 hour lifespan scares me to death.

There are four different lifespan 'specifications'. One of them is how long you should expect the cap to work right after its been hit with something like two or three times above its rated voltage. At any rate, you can expect a Jensen of the proper voltage rating to last 20 years or more.

Hi Dean,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Thank you for bringing this to my/our attention. I triple checked the info at the Jensen website, and your comment is substantiated. Jensen says: Lifetime test equals 250 hours at the maximum category temperature and 2 x Un, according to IEC 80 § 21. I suppose there's only one thing to do now... go out and purchase a few. Thanks again.

William

[3dzapper]

Yeah! What Dean said! I must have at least two thousand hours if not three on the Jensens in my 300B SET amp. It still sounds better than many more expensive SET amps I have heard. I have one of my amps on 24/7 most days with music playing about 20 of those hours. That's why I rotate them like tires.

The spec quoted must be max voltage/temperature rating. They last more than ten days fer sure.

I'm heming and hawing myself as to wether to put Jensens in my new Dynaclone boards. I have 4 new 0.1uFs in the back room already. I would need to buy 2 0.22s to trick it out in copper.

Try 'em. You'll like 'em.

Rick

[Tarheel]

William... my system is at it's best yet. As you may recall the hybrids replaced the 2005 LS and recently ALK Engineering designed xovers for the 511b/902 combination for me. Bluesboy put them together and I have been listening to them for about 2 weeks now. Still running the KT-77s in the horn monos. Two Mark Knopfler cds came in the mail yesterday and the sound quality of those 2 recordings was excellent. Way more bass than ever and absolutely all I need. As soon as the second reel to reel gets back from rehab in florida all will be well with my world.

You know what bothers me from time to time is that I find some remarkable recordings (remastered or not as long as the recordings used 21 or 24 bit processing) that sound so good that I don't want to hear the cds from the 80s and 90s. What do you do with old cds that don't sound good? That is more of a rhetorical question unless someone has a really good solution. Donate them to the library? ***** shooting? I have probably 300 cds like that and maybe 100 that sound really great.

It sounds like you continue to tinker/upgrade your system. Any changes planned other than the caps? Have you talked with Mike Sanders about the cap question?

Chuck

[WPM]

William... my system is at it's best yet. As you may recall the hybrids replaced the 2005 LS and recently ALK Engineering designed xovers for the 511b/902 combination for me. Bluesboy put them together and I have been listening to them for about 2 weeks now. Still running the KT-77s in the horn monos. Two Mark Knopfler cds came in the mail yesterday and the sound quality of those 2 recordings was excellent. Way more bass than ever and absolutely all I need. As soon as the second reel to reel gets back from rehab in florida all will be well with my world.

You know what bothers me from time to time is that I find some remarkable recordings (remastered or not as long as the recordings used 21 or 24 bit processing) that sound so good that I don't want to hear the cds from the 80s and 90s. What do you do with old cds that don't sound good? That is more of a rhetorical question unless someone has a really good solution. Donate them to the library? ***** shooting? I have probably 300 cds like that and maybe 100 that sound really great.

It sounds like you continue to tinker/upgrade your system. Any changes planned other than the caps? Have you talked with Mike Sanders about the cap question?

Chuck

Hi Chuck,

I'm glad to hear that you are in audio bliss, right now. Actually, I am too, the Quickie/Horn Mono combo is wonderful, it's just that I have this insatiable thirst to squeeze the very last drop of performance out of my system. I could be very happy by not doing a thing, but...

Ask Mike Sanders? Are you kidding? LOL. I know exactly what he'd say... the Horn Mono's are fine just the way they are... if I thought they needed PIO caps, I would have put them in... and that sort of thing. And, you know, he'd probably be right, too. I may give him a shout, once I work up the nerve. When I told him I was going to use the Horn Mono's with Cornwall IIIs, he put some extra TLC into my pair, from what I was told by my dealer, Galen Carol Audio. I guess he (Mike) has a soft spot for Klipsch loudspeakers. I don't have the heart to tell him I am thinking about messing with the caps.

I know what you mean about the CDs. Now this is going to sound really strange, but I have found that when I use my computer to burn some otherwise crappy sounding CDs to disc, and use the function in the program that balances out the levels, the burned copy sounds pretty darn good, much better than the original. Call me a freek, but it really does make a difference, and I can't explain it. Give it a try sometime, and tell me what you think. Cheers!

William

[anarchist]

Rick,

How would you explain the difference between the Auricaps, Hovlands, and the Jensens? Have you heard all three?

[3dzapper]

Rick,

How would you explain the difference between the Auricaps, Hovlands, and the Jensens? Have you heard all three?

Hovelands are what Mark uses in the BB. A merger of the other brands. Of the others, the Auricaps seem to have a faster SS like attack edge but without the grain, the Jensens seem smoother across the band with a warmer Mac like bass. The difference that a tapestry might make on the back wall.

Rick

[NOSValves]

The QS lower cost amps are dead simple almost to a fault IMHO. I wouldn't hesitate to upgrade the caps if I was you but don't expect miracle changes in sound. Also give whatever you try at least 100 hours to break in and with any TFT type 500 hours! The options are endless and the opinions will be also. V-cap TFT will indeed set you back a bundle. Sonicap platinums would be another TFT option that costs less but still pricey. The Russian film and foils would be a great bargain upgrade but sourcing can be fun these days (very few of the Russian caps are really PIO's). Jensen's PIO's will warm things up for sure. I'm sure I will get some frowns out of this comment but it would surprise me knowing what I do about QS designs that I would describe the horn mono's as super horn friendly in my book.

I've replace the QS V-4's with VRD's on speakers "Von Schweikert's" that could use the near double power they make over the VRD's and the customers was not disappointed in the VRD's except when cranking thing up past the VRD amps abilities.

Craig

Hi Craig,

Indeed, you are correct... the QS amps have a very simple design and literally lend themselves to mods/upgrades. I think they basically sound pretty good, as is, but they can certainly be improved upon. That's the trouble when components are built to a price point... something has to suffer. With the QS amps it must be in the caps and resistors, as their transformers are of very high quality, which, in my opinion, is where it matters most. Everything else can be addressed by the DIYer. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

I love the idea of the Jensen's, but the 250 hour lifespan scares me to death. I double checked the Jensen website and, sure enough, it's posted right there. I can put 250 hours on my amps in a few months, and I just can't see me soldering in new caps every quarter, that's just insane. I've heard about these German made PIO caps called M-Caps, and am trying to get some info regarding their lifespan. Perhaps they will last a bit longer than the Jensen's? Still, I may have to give something a try or I'll never know. I may go ahead and replace the resistors in the amps with Riken Ohms, as well, as there are very few of them inside the amps, too.

I appreciate you chiming in, Craig, as I knew you'd give it to me straight. And thanks to everyone else for sharing your comments, too. If, and when, I do undertake this little mod project, I will be sure to post my findings. I'm sure Chuck will be very interested.

William

William,

Glad you took my comments as intended! If I was you I would at the very least slap some mid level caps from reliable capacitor or similar. Go Film and Foils if you want precision or PIO for sweetness (blurring). By the way the 250 hour rating is for full maximum conditions on all parameters. Chances are the Jensen caps would run for years and years in your amps without issue. PIO caps don't like heat but I would be surprised if your QS amps break 100 degrees on the inside of the chassis. Another great option for caps is the mundorf line.

Craig