dp1954 Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 I'm beginning to question my audio search. For the last 30 years I've been looking for that 'sound'. I've tried dozens of different speaker types, different apllification etc always looking for a sound I heard during my college days in the 70's. About 8 years ago I ran across klipsch, and realized that was the sound I'd been looking for. The last 8 years now i've been 'tweeking' my system, adding this/that, messing with tubes, different interconnects, rewiring, recapping, horn wrapping, you name it. If I saw it on the forum and it sounded plausible i'd try it. Now I think my system has gotten to the point that it is just to darn revealing. I recently started picking up mac equipment because it seemed well thought of and because of this I"ve been going back through my cd/vinyl collection relistening to all of my old source material. The conclusion I've reached is that only about 30% or so of my CDs/vinyl really sounds decent. The rest of them just plain out sound like crap. Has anybody else run into this dilema? The recordings now that don't sound so good sounded fine on other setups. Now I have a system that sounds fantastic, but only with the best source material. I'm not so sure this is a victory. Any thoughts from you guys? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champagne taste beer budget Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 My system is nowhere as evolved as yours, but you do pose an interesting question. I'm looking forward to hearing others thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dp1954 Posted January 19, 2007 Author Share Posted January 19, 2007 I'm seeing how poorly recorded alot of the cds/albums were over the years. Not very enjoyable when you can hear just about every error in the sound. Maybe its time to backtrack...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 A real paradox, no doubt. The solution is to have several hi-fis if you can, a couple anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mas Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 I have always wondered about that approach. Seeking "that sound", a particular character that one looks for a system to impart... Just like a recent thread was looking for amplifiers that color the sound in just the 'proper' way... And many still think that the electro-mechanics are going to insure that the source images correctly and has a proper soundstage. I guess I can understand this. But after dealing with the industry for far too long and knowing how many sessions are recorded, and realizing that there is no soundstage and image to recreate, as artists were over-dubbed and multi-tracked over a period of time from different rooms and locations, and that true ensemble recordings where there might be phase information that could be accurately referenced regarding the location of the players, was to say, rare at best, then you start to realize that many folks seek that which never existed. They are, unfortunately, on a proverbial snipe hunt. What most are actually chasing is the engineers ability to compose a session. Literally. Panning this source here, Overdubbing this source there. Image? Soundstage? Oh... yeah.... Doesn't it just feel like you were at the legendary session where everyone was in the same room, playing simultaneously and where the vibe was just perfect - THE ONE THAT NEVER EXISTED! IMO the best we can do is to find a system that accurately reproduces the source. Be it record, CD, DVD, whatever. And from there you get to listen to not only the performance, but also to the performance of the engineer. As you cannot remove the micing techniques, the compression the gating, the reverb and other effects... You get to listen to the entire PRODUCTION, and it is exactly that, a production where many steps are integrated.And that necessarily includes all of the limitations as well as the joys of production. And as such, you do get exactly what you mention. And no, this is not a failing of the system! The problem encountered is a result of unrealistic expectations where one assumes that which is not there. Oh, there are a few well made ensemble recordings. But they are definately the exception. I suggest that what many are chasing are in fact experiences that they would like to find - how they would wish it to be, but not how things actually are. What we have is a misalignment of our hopes and expectations with that which actually exists. So I guess we have a choice. We can listen intelligently with an awareness of the production techniques, much like one might watch a horror or special effects film cognizant of the skill and craft involved in generating the myriad special effects, or we can drink a beer or glass of wine or whatever else might strike your fancy, and sit back and suspend your sense of disbelief and immerse yourself into a realm of make believe. In any case, that which many claim as the holy grail, simply does not exist except insofar as the engineer can mask their involvement. But don't delude yourself into thinking that they don't exist! [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dp1954 Posted January 19, 2007 Author Share Posted January 19, 2007 Interesting way of looking at things audio...... I do agree with you that the sound that you/we hear is only as good as the engineer behind the recording. A good example of this are some of the old moody blues cds.... Seventh Sojourn... I have 2 copies, one a copy of the original and the other a copy from 'remastered' tapes. the remastered one sounds much better only because I believe it was better engineered. But remastered recordings are not always/necessarily the best. Another example. Acoustic Alchemy cd's. These guys were graduates from Juliard in both playing/recording music. I have about 14 of their cds and every one of them is excellent. Not a bad recording in the lot. These guys know how to engineer their tapes. But where does that leave us? Is it best to ignore the artist to some extent and start focusing on who engineered the source? Thats a path I'm just not willing to follow... Maybe its time to get into something else. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mas Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 "Is it best to ignore the artist to some extent and start focusing on who engineered the source? Thats a path I'm just not willing to follow... Maybe its time to get into something else." No! But isn't that exactly what you are doing? ...And in the process becoming disillusioned that the recording process is exactly that, a complex process ranging from the actual performance to the recording to the reproduction of it? No. I suggest that you simply acknowledge the process. It exists! You seem to have lost your belief system that all is ideal and as a result are experiencing a Sysiphusean crisis over the meaning of audio! Come on! And realize that the recording and mastering engineers are as much artists on the recordings as the actual musicians. I guess that is why, aside from the self-congratulatory nature of the business, they have awards for them too! And whatever you do, don't watch movies, as you just may discover that some of the effects aren't real, or that there really aren't such things as Hobbits. (I sure hope that Coytee doesn't read this! I don't think he has fully recovered from the trauma of the Santa Claus incident!) Just relax. A great recording is indeed a joy! Enjoy it. A bad recording is like watching an episode of Green Acres. Try to enjoy it, and failing that, laugh! Or, if you are really depressed (or want to become that way!!!), listen to a disco or rap record and plan your suicide attempt (OK, don't follow through, but you have certainly discovered the right format for inspiring it!) And you may be amazed that even some of them, while having little content of value, are actually well engineered...Hey, you have to find a bright spot somewhere! Look, the problem is not records, or movies, or anything out there. Its in 'here' - in your expectations! Simply acknowledge the reality in all of its manifestations and delight in the the good and appreciate and laugh at the bad. And if you can't do that, when you discover that illusive ideal venture you seem to require, let us all know. And if none of this works, take a listen to Al Yankowitz or the Firesign Theater. Al uses great production techniques to parody the music - with an incredible skill in itself. Its not cheap production! And if you need a break from all of the seriousness, few things can top the Firesign Theater for changing your perspective on reality. After all, where do you think LSD and the various other hallucinogenics got the idea? Yup, you guessed it, Firesign Theater! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dp1954 Posted January 19, 2007 Author Share Posted January 19, 2007 Yo mas, you aren't a psych by chance are you? No I'm not depressed, but maybe just a little bit disappointed. I guess I'll just have to set up two boxes for my cds. One to listen to in the car and one for the home system.... kind of like taking a trip to the top of a mountain. Great trip, perfect views, wonderful sounds, but a good part of the food suks. Maybe I've just gotten too 'critical'. I'll spend the weekend listening and thinking... And I like green acres...................... Have a nice weekend all. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMays Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 It's funny you mention this. I have been trying to find the sound I heard in college myself. I had a Pioneer system with AR speakers. I really think that system must not have been as good as I seem to remember though. This is the very reason I am going to set up a two channel system in my guitar/bar room....I will probabally get some B & W speakers like the 805's or perhaps even some Sonus Faber's. DP, do you still have those items for sale? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 I'm beginning to question my audio search. For the last 30 years I've been looking for that 'sound'. I've tried dozens of different speaker types, different apllification etc always looking for a sound I heard during my college days in the 70's. About 8 years ago I ran across klipsch, and realized that was the sound I'd been looking for. The last 8 years now i've been 'tweeking' my system, adding this/that, messing with tubes, different interconnects, rewiring, recapping, horn wrapping, you name it. If I saw it on the forum and it sounded plausible i'd try it. Now I think my system has gotten to the point that it is just to darn revealing. I recently started picking up mac equipment because it seemed well thought of and because of this I"ve been going back through my cd/vinyl collection relistening to all of my old source material. The conclusion I've reached is that only about 30% or so of my CDs/vinyl really sounds decent. The rest of them just plain out sound like crap. Has anybody else run into this dilema? The recordings now that don't sound so good sounded fine on other setups. Now I have a system that sounds fantastic, but only with the best source material. I'm not so sure this is a victory. Any thoughts from you guys? There are other speakers out there that are even more revealing than Klipsch that sound good with a wide variety of source materials. I was lsitening to soem electrostats last weekend that were extremely revealing and just sounded great with everything played on them. Same goes for my B&W's. My suggestion is to keep the Klipsch and get an AH! or Jolida CD player for the less than perfect recordings and keep te hhigh definition source that you have now for the better recordings. What is your source? I had the same problem with my K Horns until I went with a Peach / upsampled AH! CD player. Then most everything sounded good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dp1954 Posted January 19, 2007 Author Share Posted January 19, 2007 Phil.. Yes I still have some things for sale. I haven't sold anything yet for sure. I'll get around to posting pics as soon as I can. I just find it hard to part with any of it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMays Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 Understood Dave! If you decide to sale some of the items, I would have an interest. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dp1954 Posted January 19, 2007 Author Share Posted January 19, 2007 Will do Phil.. Heck why don't you run up here one weekend. Its only about 90 miles. Heading home for the weekend. Have a good one. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiser SET say Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 Dave, I could be happy with that Pioneer SX-1280 and a pair of Cornwalls and a decent CD player and you have so many options in your system profile I just think you have several intriguing possibilities with all that gear[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lwhaples Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 Dave, I could be happy with that Pioneer SX-1280 and a pair of Cornwalls and a decent CD player and you have so many options in your system profile I just think you have several intriguing possibilities with all that gear[] I would have to agree on Pioneer! I have a SX1250 that I'm using as a pre while my Blueberry is out. The Pioneer has way too much power! Though the three Cornwalls seem to enjoy it.[Y] Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 I guess I can understand this. But after dealing with the industry for far too long and knowing how many sessions are recorded, and realizing that there is no soundstage and image to recreate, as artists were over-dubbed and multi-tracked over a period of time from different rooms and locations, and that true ensemble recordings where there might be phase information that could be accurately referenced regarding the location of the players, was to say, rare at best, then you start to realize that many folks seek that which never existed. They are, unfortunately, on a proverbial snipe hunt. What most are actually chasing is the engineers ability to compose a session. Literally. Panning this source here, Overdubbing this source there. Image? Soundstage? Oh... yeah.... Doesn't it just feel like you were at the legendary session where everyone was in the same room, playing simultaneously and where the vibe was just perfect - THE ONE THAT NEVER EXISTED! IMO the best we can do is to find a system that accurately reproduces the source. Be it record, CD, DVD, whatever. And from there you get to listen to not only the performance, but also to the performance of the engineer. As you cannot remove the micing techniques, the compression the gating, the reverb and other effects... You get to listen to the entire PRODUCTION, and it is exactly that, a production where many steps are integrated.And that necessarily includes all of the limitations as well as the joys of production. Exactly right, Mark. At a rock show, unless you're close enough to the stage to hear the onstage monitors instead of the PA columns, you are not going to get imaging/soundstage even remotely like an engineer-enhanced live recording. And even if you are close enough, the balance is going to be all wrong. Live rock shows are rarely presented in stereo to the audience. At a symphony, the particular seat and the particular hall create huge differences in what the listener hears. But regardless, he'll never hear the orchestra in the same way as a commercial recording reproduces it, whether it is from the perspective of the conductor or wherever, what with multiple microphones and spotlighting of soloists and any number of other issues. A listener will usually hear the orchestra as a unit, and that's the way it should be. A listener is not supposed to be able to pick out each individual violinist, for instance. That's not what the string section is about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMays Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 I may just head up one day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ69 Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 Can you go too far? Yes, definitely. You can "tune up" your system so it will just play one CD really well and most of the others will sound like crap. Been there, done that. It's tempting to get a system sounding so close to being real that we keep trying to get it closer and closer to sounding like the real thing. The problem is that there just isn't enough good software out there to support that kind of system. I firmly believe that the goal is not to strive for a super accurate hi-fi system but to make the goal to assemble as enjoyable music system as you can. I'm enjoying my music more and analyzing less and less. I'll probably be flamed for this or put in the "he's one of those guys" camp but it's really about enjoying the music and anything you do to make all your recordings sound better will work better than concentrating on just a few recordings. What I do is take out my 10 favorite CD's and change stuff around until they all sound as best they can. My top few super sounding CD's will definitely "take a hit" and you'll lose that little edge but everything else will sound much better. Thin out the silver interconnects and start plugging in some Cardis or Kimber copper units and see if the music isn't livelier and more satisfying. Thanx, Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 For me its all about the music, some recordings are better than others, that is clear. But if your favorite tune is on a static filled mono LP then so be it, its your favorite tune. My Speakers, Amp, preamp, etc is all about playing recordings I enjoy, not about playing the best recorded recordings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Me Loves Khorns Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 I can absolutely tell the difference in good and bad recordings now. I have so many old cd's and vinyl that I figure I could never listen to them all in 100 years anyway.[] If one sounds bad, I put in another one. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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