how to tell if the speaker is better or worse

[InVeNtOr]

okay got a question. looking at the specks on the rf83 vs rf63. here is the specks on the rf83:

frequency response

29Hz-21kHz +/-3dB

sensitivity

100dB @ 2.83V / 1m

high freq crossover

1650Hz

the specific question is, on each category is higher the number good or bad????

[IndyKlipschFan]

It depends.. Specs are great, but only used as a guideline. I know of some desings on purpose... say a studio monitor that look great on paper.. They are designed for that specific purpose too.

In a home situation they are very flat maybe even seem lifeless.. And sound horrible.. Specs tell only PART of the story!

[JetJockey]

I agree with Indy, but the sensitivity is important..the higher the better..for example, a speaker that is rated at 87db would be quite difficult for some receivers and amps to drive while the 83's 100db are very efficient. Also, it gives you some idea of how low the speak can go...in this case 29HZ claimed which I might add is really low for a floorstander and I can attest to that, they really pump out the bass[]

Chris

[wuzzzer]

1) Frequency response: Ideally a speaker should measure as close to 20 Hertz (Hz) and 20 kiloHertz (kHz) within a 3 decibel variance (+/-3dB) as possible. This way the sound will play at the same loudness from the lowest bass to the highest treble. Once a speaker is set up in a room there are a lot of variables that will affect how 'flat' of a response the speaker will play, though. **When I say ideally, what I mean is that if someone is using the speakers without a subwoofer. If you're using a subwoofer its ok to have a speaker that is rated +/- 3dB down to whatever the highest bass frequency your subwoofer will play (generally around 80Hz).

2) Sensitivity is where the higher the number the better. The higher the speaker's sensitivity, the louder it will play with the same wattage input as a speaker with a lower sensitivity. Its very common to see speakers in the low 90s or high 80s for sensitivity. If you look at Klipsch's speakers, most of them will be rated in the mid 90s up to over 100dB. The lower the sensitivity the harder your amp has to work, the higher the sensitivity the easier it is on your amp. **Differences in the ohm rating of a speaker will affect how hard an amp has to work, too. For instance the now discontinued RF-7 speaker from Klipsch had a minimum impedence rating of 2.8 ohms which is lower than most amps can handle well. As a result, even though the speaker has a high sensitivity rating, many users found good results by using an amp that outputted 200+ clean watts per channel and was stable to lower than average ohm loads.

3) The high frequency crossover is the top end of sound that the woofers will play and the bottom end of sound that the tweeter will play. In a 2 way system, its good to have a crossover that doesn't cross too high, otherwise the woofers will be asked to play a very broad spectrum of the sound frequency and sometimes midrange sound can seem not quite as crisp as it can in a 3 way system. If you notice, Klipsch has moved down the high frequency crossover point on the new reference series speakers compared to the previous series. Many have said that the midrange sound is sharper and more detailed on the new reference series because of this.

[InVeNtOr]

alright, that sums it up. thanks for the input. i was trying to see how much a difference the rf83 vs the rf63 was. it seems that they are very close to each other, i will most likely never be able to tell the difference because i will never get high enough in electronics. that helps me decide which way to go.

thanks again guys.

[pauln]

Sensitivity is most important, frequency response less so (per PWK), because low distortion is prior to accuracy.

Opinoins vary, but I don't like a crossover in the voice range.

[InVeNtOr]

i have the 10.5 speakers and to me they sound great. later on when the house comes and there is way more money my wife says i could look at getting the rf63.

[mas]

You cannot evaluate the performance of a speaker, or any mechanical
system, by simply focusing on and attempting to evaluate several overly
simplified factors as if they exist in isolation. They simply provide
some guideposts.

And as far as saying which one is most
important? Since they are actually describing an integrated system and
not a collection of independently functioning variables, which 'pieces
and parts': your brain, heart, lungs or liver - are most important?

They are simply overly reductionist guideposts that must be taken in context.

Here, let's run through them quickly...

Freq
Response. OK, it has a broad spectrum.Is that good? Sure on paper.
Here's a challenge for you. Get a test CD with test tones. Go listen
(on a system capable of reproducing them - or better yet, use
headphones) to the tones from 15 kHz up. Can YOU hear them? And if you
can hear them can you hear them? ...Meaning, if you can actually
hear them, how 'loud' are they? And 21kHz! Your dog will either love
you or hate you. Wouldn't it be nice is such effort was put into the audible
portion of the spectrum. And + - 3 dB...so any given part of the
response can potentially be twice as loud as another part. Is that
good? Don't answer. You can't.

Sensitivity: OK, it gets louder
for a given input than another speaker. Is that by definition good?
Does that mean it sounds worth listening to? Who knows. I know of air
raid/civil defense sirens more efficient. They sound just great.

Crossover
frequency: Oh boy. The critical vocal frequencies are from ~800 Hz to
2500Hz. Putting a crossover in the middle of this range (as SO many
speakers do!) is anathema - it is not good, as it screws with the phase
response in a very critical range. Why do they do it? If they had more
optimal transducers with a greater range, they wouldn't. Its a fact of
life and it effects much of the audio industry. Does it mean the speaker
stinks? No, not necessarily. BTW, its very common. But that is what the spec tells us.

OK, we have
looked at them all. Do we know much more than when we started? Well,
we know it is a speaker that has a broad spectral range. And that it
plays relatively loudly for a given input so we don't necessarily need
a humongous amp, but one with sufficient reserve to operate in its
linear range over a wide output range is still necessary. We know
nothing about the characteristics of the sound output in terms of Q -
coverage and intensity distribution, nor much else. Is it able to
accurately reproduce transients? Do we know anything about its levels of distortion? I don't know. In fact, we know nothing
about how it sounds!

The problem is not that there is a problem at step 27 of the process, the problem is basic assumption and the question.

If this sounds cryptic, take a look at my avatar. That diagram of a rotating phasor is a complete representation of a system that includes every spec you listed and almost all of the other electro-mechanical specs available as well. Confusing? Good! Hopefully it will lead to more questions and more learning.

The
point is that specs merely give a very cryptic shorthand
representation. They assume much more meaning within the context of a
specific evaluation. But simply taken out of context it is much akin to
my saying that I wear a 36 inch (arm) inseam shirt. Is that good or
bad? You can compare them with other similar units, but then, you still
don't really know what they sound like. I mean, we could compare how
long the arms are of several persons' shirts, but does that tell you who is smarter?

And if you think that
is a measure of intelligence, just wait for the comments about this
that will follow! Then you can ask if typing is a measure of
intelligence. And I suspect that that evaluation will be much easier to evaluate! And probably more accurate as well!

[InVeNtOr]

mas,

i knew you would chime in. i am just trying to get a little feel on what to look for in a speaker. i currently have the 10.5 set up. i don't really know if i have something that is ok, good, great, or well it will do. if i look to upgrade i need to know what i actually am upgrading. it is obvious that the rf 83 and rf63 have much better numbers than mine, but again i don't really know if my numbers are even bad. i figured when i bought them, klipsch is the greatest speakers the average person can buy. anything above klipsch to me starts around $10,000 a speaker. i defiantly know you won't be able to go to c.c. and buy better speakers. (i was going to say b.b. but they now sell klipsch) i have my eye on the rf63 set, and i know they are a better speaker, i just don't know how much better they are and are they worth the extra money. to date i love the sound, all the movies i play sound awesome.

that is all that i was meaning by asking the question. i know you can't solely judge a speaker by a few numbers.

[mas]

I could provide a list of speakers based upon many criterion, but in order to buy a "better" speaker, I would suggest listening to them in a similar environment at the same SPL levels (as the louder one will be preferred).

Listen to well know sources of music. And just because a speaker costs allot of money does not necessarily mean that it is better! I have listened to plenty of absurdly priced speakers that I would not buy IF I had the money.

Specs alone can give you a very simplistic notion of how the 2 compare in certain respects, but they do not replace listening to them.

And price is simply 'another' spec.

If the specs were sufficient, you could save some money at a very nice restaurant by simply eating the menu.

LISTEN to them! []

[InVeNtOr]

oh i would love to! just let me know where i can find a store that actually sells the rf63 speakers and i am there! maybe i will invite myself to some of the guys that are here and listen to their media room...lol. truth is i WANT to upgrade, but i won't unless i can hear a difference.

[mas]

I can certainly relate to your frustration with hearing many of the speakers!!!

I actually think that perhaps the biggest strength of the forum is that there are others who are open to letting you hear them. ...And often in a much more attractive environment then the infernal store.

[InVeNtOr]

yeah, it seems that klipsch lovers are just nicer people.

[jacksonbart]

Forget the specs and put on a particular recording your very familiar with and listen to them both.

[Speedball]

...listen, listen, listen........are the highs all there? the mids? the lows? is it a pleasing sound......I'm just guessing but that's what I'd listen for and do as many comparisons as possible.

Most of all take your time and have fun with it. Oh and by the way, when I bought my rf-7's I was looking for the biggest baddest speaker available in the store......[]