Holy crap, everybody turn on the news about Virginia Tech...

[HarryO]

tkd,

My 2 cents worth is probably worthless. I'm sure you caught my point clearly. Instead of beating around the bush, here I go again. I'm not going to blame it on a gun, bomb, knife, gas or anything but the KILLER. Your point is very well taken and for the most part I am in agreement. Laws need to be enforced against those individuals illegally using said instruments. To me it is the same as blaming an automobile manufacturer for drunk drivers, an institute for higher learning teaching the politicians that make poor decisions. Bottom line: It is the individual committing the act. Not the instrument. I'm not advocating arming anyone. Many of the people I know have NO business with firearms. Many people I know carry firearms. Including myself. I have been a legal carrier of firearms for over 35 years. I take responsibility for my own actions. I will not blame my skillet manufacturer for me burning down my kitchen, nor my automobile dealer for my backing over a shopping cart. I'm not going to shy away from my responsibilities and lay blame where it doesn't belong. Yes, Please, Please enforce our laws to protect our populace. Lock up the illegal firearms dealers, bootleggers, dope dealers, corrupt politicians and cops, criminals, doctors addicting patients for profit, and any other CRIMINAL doing harm to our society. I'll shut up and holster my fingers before I turn Right Wing Conservative, turn on Rush Limbaugh and start saluting the flag screaming "Heil S&W". We still have a free country and I hope it always stays free. Lock me up...not my skillet manufacturer.

HarryO

[Zen Traveler]

tkd,

... I'll shut up and holster my fingers before I turn Right Wing Conservative, turn on Rush Limbaugh and start saluting the flag screaming "Heil S&W". We still have a free country and I hope it always stays free. Lock me up...not my skillet manufacturer.

HarryO

Suffice it to say we are in agreement on several issues and if this crime was committed with a skillet I am sure we could agree on several more. I take your point and will consider it on formats where this discussion would be more apropos. [:-*]

[skonopa]

This tragedy has hit this area (Fredericksurg) very hard, as there are many folks around here that are going or have gone to Virginia Tech. I know of at least three people here at work that are either alumni and/or has children going there.

Having gone to college and graduating with an engineering type degree (in my case, computer science), I can fully relate to what the environment is like there at VT. I cannot even imagine the horror that these folks down there had to face. It just boggle my mind that something like this had to even happen.

There is going to be a lot of talk about if the campus officials should've notified people about that first shooting a lot sooner or locked down the campus immediately. There are some 26,000 students that go to that school! That is more than the population of Fredericksburg proper! So, do we lock down Fredericksburg if a shooting occurred at one of the apartment complexes? After all, the shooter could've easily go off on a rampage at a busy restaurant or supermarket (Lubby's anyone?) just as easily as this one went off in a classroom building.

No doubt, many questions will be asked and hopefully answers can be found. We can only hope to prevent similar tragedies like this in the future.

At this point, all we can really do now is pray for these folks that had to suffer this terrible tragedy. Nothing like this should ever have to happen on any school campus, no matter how small or large or how "prestigeous" it may be.

[HarryO]

tkd,

At the very least we are in total agreement on Klipsch. It's nice chattin with you. Thank you.

Again, my prayers are for all concerned.

HarryO

[oldbuckster]

It was an EVIL crime that effects everyone........EVERYONE...... What a shame......Pray for us all !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Zen Traveler]

This shooting was a terrible crime, but to label it "evil" diminishs humanity's responsibility to keep this from happening to other families, imho.

[mas]

An individual committed an anomalous act.

But to watch so many who were previously no where to be found, run amuck and suddenly start asking what the proverbial 'they' should have done and to attempt to cast 'solution's based upon the inauthentic speculation about the speculation based on the speculation regarding the previous speculation in anticipation of the forthcoming speculation is absurd - just as is the attempt to assign meaning based upon one's emotional disposition. Nothing but inauthentic attention masquerading as 'news'.

If you want to do so, assume responsibility for your influence within your sphere of influence!

It is like watching folks ascribe meaning to a tornado! A meaningless act.

And so much of what we are witnessing is a similar reaction to the Columbine reaction fiasco, when so many asked what the proverbial 'they' (as in the government!) should have done to prevent such an act, when all along the answer was obvious! It is so quaint to watch the 'oh so concerned' chime in after an act has occurred and attempt to assign responsibility and blame, when the opportunity for preventing the situation were present at all times prior to the act!

In the case of Columbine, several kids were the subject of bullying for quite some time! And what should the amorphous they have done?? Simple! Friends, teachers, adults, strangers...ANYONE who witnessed the bullying over a long period of time could have at any time reported it and held those individual bullies, adults, teachers, other student witnesses and school officials accountable - WHOMEVER was within the sphere of influence - and insisted that all who witnessed such actions use whatever their influence was to cause such bullying to cease. But aren't we quick to absolve ourselves and to yell and scream as we expect 'someone else' to solve the problem! Waiting until after something reaches critical mass and then whining is noise. Its history. And every individual in their own small way blew it. There is no 'they'! Pogo was right. We have met the enemy and he is US!

It doesn't take the guberment, or the inevitable pointing at someone else to figure out 'who was to blame'. The answer isn't 'out there' or someone else's responsibility! It is the responsibility of every person who came into contact and who in some way participants or witnesses and who fails to act responsibly as they blindly turn their eyes and choose to ignore something they rationalize as insignificant...To the degree that they are able to recognize that a problem exists! That is the problem. Everything else is simply epilogue.

So, if you want to figure out who is to blame, and who has the power to prevent such incidents AS FAR AS THEY ARE PREVENTABLE, which they may not be, Look in the mirror. And before anyone runs amuck ascribing restrictions to place on others or abstract meaning based upon their emotional reactions, if you have some suggestion as to how others should act, impose those restrictions on yourself in your everyday actions.

Everything else is simply inauthentic concern.

But, hey, I know! Let's pass another law against doing bad things.

[oldenough]

Well said mas, but i do'nt expect too many folks will be clammering to congratulate you on your insight.

[kaiser SET say]

MAS, I like your thoughts here but the "It takes a Village to raise a child" has passed us by a long shot because we (The good hearted people of concern) are afraid of the Bully & his parents who employ a scumbag Attorney to protect their angel's rights[]

Gee, think of how many lives might have been saved had anyone taken early warnings on 911[] But by God let's all jump on the Knifong wagon and desicrate 3 fine young men[+o(] Cultural Revolution (courtesy Anarchist) is an understatement[:^)]

[mas]

It takes a village? Nor am I talking of social engineering by imposing my ideas on someone else. All you have to do is acknowledge the existing rules of common sense and demand compliance within your sphere of influence - no more.

And who cares about an attorney.

In my school control of a bully was well within the ability of the individual students to control if each had simply stood up to it. And none would have had to raise a hand. Simply ostracizing of the bully from inclusion by individual action would have done more without raising a hand than whatever a lawyer would have been called in for! And as you mention lawyers, the victims of bullying can employ them just as easily as a bully. But I love(sic) the restrictive 'it can't be done' logic that precludes any options rather than the expansive 'how can it be done' thinking which encourages possibilities and solutions..

It simply takes YOU to do what you can within your sphere of influence. I have no control over anyone else, just me! But I can have a small role in what occurs within my space.

Do I expect the world to change in accordance to my thinking? No. But neither do I go looking for cosmic significance in anomalous acts of stupidity.

But oldenough is right, I don't expect any calls from Oprah. But then I don't depend upon the validation of others for my values either.

[Zen Traveler]

Well said mas, but i do'nt expect too many folks will be clammering to congratulate you on your insight.

Well, Let me be the second. [Y] {edit: Although we may have slight opinion variances on some potential solutions []}

[kaiser SET say]

My point was MAS that we are raising kids who are afraid or won't stand up to bullying. I think my 6 year old has finally caught on after watching the Ant Bully for about 6 times now. He looked at me when the town bully challenged the young man playing the main character again towards the end and after he learned from the ants about teaming together my son looks at me and says he can beat one of them up but not all of them and I thought to myself (ding, his little light popped on and it's so cool when your child picks up on the lesson)[]

I know for a fact nerds in numbers can take out any bully any given day, just like women abusers they are the biggest cowards and turn tail as soon as they see they are out numbered/gunned or whatever you like to call it[]

[Zen Traveler]

Holy crap! This guy evidently bought the guns legally. [] I wish he would have used a skillet to commit this crime. [:S]

http://news.aol.com/topnews/articles/_a/virginia-tech-shooting/20070416102509990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001

{edit: I apologize for the cheap shot but I found the news startling}

[kaiser SET say]

I'd say most nut cases can buy guns before they are identified as being nutz[]

I'm sure there is the potential that we have thousands more of these guns owners just waiting to snap[]

[mas]

Kaiser...ok, I see what you mean now!

Yeah, I fear that too many have internalized the "I am a victim" mentality that they do not realize that they can make a difference - however small, and even so it is worth trying. And they don't have to stand up and take anyone on directly...they can go and persist in asking for help from parents, teachers, or other figures. And that is a tragedy.

I just reject the notion that we have to have someone else do it for us (but this is not to say you can't employ help!). It just doesn't absolve each individual of their responsibility to try to see that reasonable values are maintained where they live. No heroics, just common sense responsibility.

And as far as if he got a gun legally, who cares. I bought a car legally, but that does not imply that there is anything wrong with the process because I choose to go and get drunk and drive! But it does make me responsible (or irresponsible for abdicating my responsibilities). And the solution is not with anyone else. And it is EASY to make lots of a pipe bombs from garden supply components or to make impulse weapons from a microwave oven. The list is endless. I reject the notion that some carte blanch banning of any item will solve a problem.

And yup, I may inflict harm! But I might do so at any time in a myriad number of ways.

We are each responsible, whether we choose to be or not. And the answer is not in telling me or others what we may own or not. Nor in expecting someone else to take care of the problem for me. We have choices, and we either make good ones or we abdicate our responsibility.

But in any case, we are judged by our actions. And we are responsible for them as well.

And I reject the notion that someone else can decide whether I or someone else will act out or how I will act. Just as I cannot do so in regards to the other person. And I fear that this course is the one that too many will again be too quick to grasp in their 'after the fact' emotional reaction and their desire to find a simple solution directed "at others".

I mean, passing more laws against being stupid and acting irresponsibly will not make such actions more rare. Its a shame, but its time that we acknowledge the fact. And 'they ' are not going to solve the problem for us. To the degree that it can be solved, WE will be the ones who do this via our own values and our own choices.

But, it is amazing how we continue to look for a solution everywhere but where we are sitting. And the only person we each have control of is ourselves. We can establish standards, but we cannot insure that any individual will adhere to them. And to that degree, that is the price of living in a free society. And it is not a feature that I am willing to surrender simply because an individual can be stupid.

But tune into Oprah tomorrow (Wednesday)! Her rep is at VaTech and they are going to discuss "Why did it happen?" and "What can we do?"

I expect profound conclusions!

Yeah, right.

---------------------------------

People expect life to be safe, and to have certainty that it will always be so.

Right... And for some reason we look for the solution each time an exceptional situation confronts us!

Sorry guys, but this is just very simple to me. But that does not mean that I expect any simple answer as a 'solution'. I guess that I do not expect a simple solution. But neither do I find the reactionary desire to find some cosmic significance in an anomalous action. Nor do I look to establish mainstream general solutions based upon an anomalous action.

But I listen to the infotainment masquerading as news, and I listen to the focused attention on the idiot Imus and watch as folks who have already established their racially motivated selves complain about everything but themselves and absolve themselves of all responsibility by virtue of abstractions. And it simply gets old. I mean, when was the last time you saw anyone being dragged in front of the Inquisition for referring to a "bleached blond bimbo"? All denigrating language can be a problem, regardless of who the target is. but sometimes it is also accurate! So no generalization is a valid basis for an absolute determination.

And the only thing that seems to remain in common between the stupid actions of some, and the stupid solutions of others, is PEOPLE. And maybe I am jaded with reality, but I don't expect that to change any time soon!

One is reminded of Twain's observation that "God somewhat overestimated his abilities when he created Man."

Ya think?

Be good to each other.

I'm done....

[oldenough]

You know i think there are a lot of people who's "reality is jaded" and unfortunately it is often jaded to the point of despair, and the resignation that things have got to such a sorry state that nothing can be done to change it. On a regular basis i speak with parents who readily admit to knowing the answers, and furthermore aknowledge the solutions when it comes to instilling good basic behaviour and discipline into kids. Problem is....do'nt dare to mention that it is their OWN kids that require it. Not only did discipline disappear at home, but we were so wise as to remove it from their surrogate guardians...the Teachers.

P.s I did'nt mean to alude that discipline was the only thing lacking from the home, there are of course other things as well.

[PhilMays]

I'm in the camp that more laws will change anything. Laws and locks keep an honest person honest. Enforcement of the current laws should be enough in regards to laws.

The problem is much deeper. As our population base grows, so does the number of incidents. I'm not sure if you look at a percentage that we have more crime today than we di say 100 years ago. it's just that a percentage of a huge number means more incidents.

I was talking with a law enforcement officer about the concealed weapon law that was passed in Virginia about 10 years aog. I asked him if that scared him. His reply was "no". He said those that would do you harm will hide their weapon anyway.

This guy was a loner. Something pushed him over the edge. I bet we all know someone that would fit his "profile". We just never want to think a person could really do that.

The bottom line is that there is a percentage of people that will do us harm, no matter what we do as a society. I remember on 9/11, the owner of my company said that the world as we know it has changed forever and there will be an accepted amount of terrorism. As much as I hated hearing it, it does seem to be true.

And furthermore, I don't care what others have reflected on....it is EVIL! Try to convience the victoms families otherwise.

[HarryO]

It is going to be hard waiting for the final reports on this tragedy. I know how the media jumps to conclusions and half-truths things just so they can keep their advertising bucks coming in and viewers tuned in. We know the "Who", but the "Why" may take a while. I am very sure Oprah will have all the facts and answers... As she can sell it anyway. She will or may be just as accurate in her info as Jerry Springer. Same class of crap they both push on people. Very close to CBS, MSNBC, FOX, etc.

Maybe in understanding this horror may we figure out ways to slow these type of things down. I seriously doubt we will ever be able to stop them.

I wonder who will be crucified after the "media trials" have concluded. I'm sure some poor sap will get hung out to dry just because he is an easy target for the media. The media will probably go after the head of VT or local law enforcement over this. Even after the first two shootings it would have been hard to predict his rampage. Calmer heads and time should sort this out properly.

HarryO

[Zen Traveler]

...I just reject the notion that we have to have someone else do it for us (but this is not to say you can't employ help!). And I reject the notion that some carte blanch banning of any item will solve a problem. It just doesn't absolve each individual of their responsibility to try to see that reasonable values are maintained where they live.

No heroics, just common sense responsibility.

TKDA: I couldn't agree more.

And as far as if he got a gun legally, who cares. I bought a car legally, but that does not imply that there is anything wrong with the process because I choose to go and get drunk and drive! But it does make me responsible (or irresponsible for abdicating my responsibilities).

TKDA: You seem like the kind of guy that I would trust behind the wheel or owning a gun--Then again I may be a lousy judge of character.

And the solution is not with anyone else. And it is EASY to make lots of a pipe bombs from garden supply components or to make impulse weapons from a microwave oven. The list is endless. I reject the notion that some carte blanch banning of any item will solve a problem.

TKDA: I agree completely.

And yup, I may inflict harm! But I might do so at any time in a myriad number of ways.

TKDA: OK, now I am starting to worry about you. I reserve the right to change my opinion if I see you on CNN. [^o)]

We are each responsible, whether we choose to be or not. And the answer is not in telling me or others what we may own or not. Nor in expecting someone else to take care of the problem for me. We have choices, and we either make good ones or we abdicate our responsibility.

But in any case, we are judged by our actions. And we are responsible for them as well.

TKDA: Yep, but sometimes for every action there needs to be a swift (thoughtful) reaction or the moment is lost.

And I reject the notion that someone else can decide whether I or someone else will act out or how I will act.

TKDA: Preach it brother. I am with you.

Just as I cannot do so in regards to the other person.

TKDA: In so long as their action doesn't effect me, we are in agreement on this point.

And I fear that this course is the one that too many will again be too quick to grasp in their 'after the fact' emotional reaction and their desire to find a simple solution directed "at others".

TKDA: And my fear is that it will once again be a moment lost until the hysteria that surrounds the next mass shooting and gun (or any violent) crime once again goes under the radar even though it is an obscenely common occurrence in our country.[:$]

I mean, passing more laws against being stupid and acting irresponsibly will not make such actions more rare. Its a shame, but its time that we acknowledge the fact. And 'they ' are not going to solve the problem for us. To the degree that it can be solved, WE will be the ones who do this via our own values and our own choices.

TKDA: And as Americans we need to bring issues important to us to the forefront of elections and not let the powers at large dictate the future unless we agree with their policies. [Y]

But, it is amazing how we continue to look for a solution everywhere but where we are sitting. And the only person we each have control of is ourselves. We can establish standards, but we cannot insure that any individual will adhere to them. And to that degree, that is the price of living in a free society. And it is not a feature that I am willing to surrender simply because an individual can be stupid.

TKDA: I can dig it. [H] Can't throw the baby out with the bath water. [N]

But tune into Oprah tomorrow (Wednesday)! Her rep is at VaTech and they are going to discuss "Why did it happen?" and "What can we do?"

I expect profound conclusions!

Yeah, right.

---------------------------------

Sorry guys, but this is just very simple to me. ...

TKDA: I thought outside of some of the radical stuff you had some good ideas.[8-|]

And the only thing that seems to remain in common between the stupid actions of some, and the stupid solutions of others, is PEOPLE. And maybe I am jaded with reality, but I don't expect that to change any time soon!

TKDA: Well I for one don't feel comfortable laying some of these Human issues on God (If you believe in that sort of thing).

[Zen Traveler]

..And furthermore, I don't care what others have reflected on....it is EVIL! Try to convience the victoms families otherwise.

I agree we should listen to the victim's families. Regardless how we feel about the Gun Laws in the United States or if we believe in Evil, we should hear what the families of this tragedy think after a proper time of mourning. [W]