Contractors & Home Owners -- how much might this cost?

[garyrc]

[i'm moving this post to "Home Theater" from "Architectural," in hopes of getting more opinions -- to those who responded thus far, thank you]

Note: This post came about because we got guesstimates from 2 local contractors here in Oregon of $40,000 and $75,000 -- that seemed too great a range to us.

We're seeking a way to see if we can afford this.

I know there is at least one contractor on the forum, and many of you have hired contractors to put in, or help put in, home theaters or music rooms. We're trying to get a rough idea -- a plausible range (nothing more accurate) -- of what it would cost to get professionals to remodel an existing room into a specific kind of combination music room / home theater / library, in Oregon -- or in your state (please specify, and I'll try to adjust that figure, quite approximately, by comparing regional cost of living data). The room would have no fancy aesthetics, and none of the visible trappings of home theater (decorative lamps, wall designs, etc.), but would have to be built to our specs as to proportions, and be rigid (for Klipschorns as main spks), relatively earthquake safe, and not rattle (even with super-bass from K-horns and a 15" subwoofer). We realize that we will need a permit, approval by an engineer, and perhaps someone to draw better plans than our skill level will allow.

We've decided we are not skilled or physically fit enough to do the work except for the kinds of finish work that creaky older people can do -- painting, putting up some bookshelves, diffusers, absorbers, the projector, screen, and audio equipment, staining window frames (yes, there will be 4 windows with blackout shades), etc. We are wondering if this job would cost nearer $40K, $50K, $60K or $70K for labor + materials. We're also wondering what the approximate cost per square foot might be.

Here are the provisions:

1) No equipment included in the price -- we would have a separate equipment budget, and use most of the equipment we already have. We are also not counting features such as electrically operable blackout shades at this time.

2) The room size (dictated by the current room and roof) would be about 17' x 25' with a ceiling that would vary in height from about 8' to almost 13.'

3) The existing ceiling is much too low, and is the worst thing about the room, audio wise. It (sheet rock, joists etc.) would have to be taken off, and a new system put in to hold up the existing roof in the "A " shaped front half, so that new sheet rocking (and insulation) could be applied, making the new ceiling follow the "A" shape of the front part of the roof. We're visualizing 2x 6s being sistered along the existing 2 x 4 roof members to make room for the needed insulation, while still allowing maximum ceiling height. The front half of the ceiling would start at about 8 feet and go to about 10' at the peak of the "A." The rear half of the ceiling is would not be "A" shape, and would slope up, following the roof, to a height of about 13.' Some appropriate wiring would need to go to the projector location, and to track lighting.

4) The floor in the front half would need to be taken off, and replaced -- two layers of 3/4" plywood would be fine -- no fancy hardwood flooring needed, because it will be totally covered by carpeting -- that's what's there now, but the plywood is floppy (put in by a former owner). The joists look good and firm. While the floor is off, the foundation bolts should be given the larger, modern, more earthquake safe washers and nuts, shear walling installed in the corners and mid wall area of the crawl space, the air conditioning ducts moved away from the front half of the room where they put convection currents in front of the speakers (a "no no," we gather), and new 20 Amp or greater wiring routed to the subwoofer location, and to the main audio system location. No speaker wires need to be strung; we have that covered.

5) The sheetrock would need to be taken off of the side walls, and the framing inspected. One large window on each side would have to be taken out, some of the area framed in, and these two windows replaced with smaller, beefy, double glazed ones. We will deal with the blackout shades. Near the front of the room, for five feet (only) out from each of the two front corners, where the Klipschorns will live, we would like additional studs inserted between the existing ones, making the resulting studs 8" on-center, rather than 16" as is the case now. We did this in a former house, and got much improved bass and impact/attack from the Klipschorns. If this costs too much, we might get talked out of it, if the walls can be made very rigid some other way. The side walls would then be covered with 2 layers of 5/8 sheetrock (staggered seams), or 3/4 plywood for shear strength, if the code permits, and then just 1 layer of sheetrock. In the rear portion of the room, the walls would have to be extended upward to join the sloping ceiling/roof. Now here's the quirky part. You thought you already read the quirky part? In the front of the room, where the main speakers and roll-down screen would be, we would like to have a baffle wall about 5' high (and 17' wide) built about 21" into the room from the front wall. It would have 8" O.C. 2 x 6 studs and 3/4" plywood front and back. It would join the side walls, providing strong corners for the Klipschorns, and our Belle Klipsch center channel would be embedded -- flush mounted -- in that baffle wall. Above the 5' high level, where the baffle wall ends, there would just be open space (a few studs would go all the way to the ceiling for added strength) with a deep space (from the baffle wall to the original wall) in which we could place various diffusers and/or absorbers by ear, then the whole baffle wall, the Belle (its own grille cloth taken off) and the empty space above would be covered with somewhat acoustically transparent grille cloth (prob Acoustone FR 93). We would handle putting in the non-resonant decorative trim which will divide the space into fabric coverable areas. From the room, with the proper lighting, and everything behind the proper color (experiments are favoring the "theatre black" to match the non-reflective black Belle), this arrangement would look like a fabric covered wall, that would be partly obscured by the movie screen when it is rolled down.

6) We would probably want a new (additional) power box (a ____ amp main) in the garage, dedicated to the audio equipment.

What do you think this would set us back?

[Guest " "]

40k is not believable...75k is

[mas]

I certainly wish you the best, but i also think the same problems you faced in the other thread will prevail here as well!

Varying regional labor costs and materials, no knowledge of local codes, NO PICTURES OR DRAWINGS of the existing or desired structure...there are simply SO many variables and unknowns that I wouldn't even begin to guess...well, aside from guessing that it would most likely be somewhere between $15 and $1M.

If you want valid estimates, contact local contractors and get the facts instead of off the wall unfounded opinions and guesses.

Best of luck.

[JJkizak]

Every acoustical engineering book in the world tells you to avoid a 17 ft dimension in your room. DIY is the way to go to save a ton of money but when you have such a custom installation without drawings it is not a good idea.

JJK

[mas]

Every acoustical engineering book in the world tells you to avoid a 17 ft dimension in your room.

JJK

Huh?

If you mean because 17' is close to a multiple of 2 for an 8 ' high ceiling, it can be slightly problematic with standing waves, but their is NOTHING magical about 17 feet.

[IndyKlipschFan]

give it to him MAS... hahahaha I love the know it alls too.. hehehehehehe

[JJkizak]

mas:

Check the books, read them.

JJK

[kev313]

[li][li][li]

[:#]

[getech]

I would certainly budget for a minimum of $75-$85K to do your room right. Always keep in mind change orders as you progress. When it's time for equipment, give me a call...

[mas]

mas:

Check the books, read them.

JJK

Please do tell...

What is magic about 17 feet? Aside from it tending to be a near equal multiple of a typical room height, resulting in a 'clustering' of 2 modes near each other providing additional reinforcement of summed modes?

What if the ceiling is 10 feet high? Is a 17 foot wall still verboten?

Quoting some obtuse source that makes arbitrary absolute statements without understanding how or why these "facts"(sic) arise is not a sound plan. (get it, sound...I read that in an engineering book too.) Of course that means that I will have to break down and find a book on acoustics. Oh, and just out of curiosity, what book based upon a valid legacy foundation and continued original research are you quoting? (I don't need a list of "every book"!**)...and please do not say Everest.

Hmmmm...reading a book...now there's an idea!

**Although I would love to see the list of ALL of the books that make this absolute claim! Then the question becomes, where in heck did they get their information?

This is too easy...I just couldn't resist! []

[mas]

I would certainly budget for a minimum of $75-$85K to do your room right. Always keep in mind change orders as you progress. When it's time for equipment, give me a call...

I would budget at least $250,000. After all, Every acoustic book says so. Just read them!

Besides, you are in Corvallis, and we all know that there all of the trees have feelings. So I suspect you will not be able to use nails or saws or any of the other heinous instruments of torture to modify our woodland friends.

Plus you will need security to prevent the other caring zealots from spiking your 2x4s and nesting in your attic to prevent progress. Hey, it pays to think of these things.

Anyone else have any purely arbitrary emotional figure they want to quote! I will debate you to the death that my arbitrary figure is better than your arbitrary emotional figure!

But, sorry folks, I don't have anything to sell...which makes me rather anomalous on the site... Sorry, gotta run! There goes an ambulance I can chase!

[JJkizak]

mas:

Initial installation in 1965 of the k-horns and cornwall powered center channel were in an "L" shaped room with the system on the long 24 ft wall. The short wall was 12 ft with an open dining room attached. The longer section had 15 ft with a long hallway attached. There was an open beam ceiling. Everything sounded pretty good. Later in 1968 moved to an apartment with living room/dining room/kitchen attached. Installed the system on what appeared to be the longest wall and everything sounded like crap---reduced bass and lower SPL threshold. The overall sound was not very clean. I checked the acoustical engineering book and the DUDE says avoid a 17 ft dimension as it creates too many problems. I measured the wall and it was exactly 17 ft. In 1969 moved the system to an older house with huge rooms and installed on the 24 ft wall with about 20 ft other wall and 10 ft ceilings. The sound came back to life and the SPL was higher then the first two installations. In 1971 moved the system to another house (present location) and installed on the 24 ft wall with the other wall being 13 ft. Therre are 3 doorways, 4 windows, and a fireplace and a stairway. Added new SS 7.1 receiver, equalizer, and compander/expander while using the old receiver to power the k-horns with equalizer and expander/compander on the old receiver. The volume control of the new receiver controls the old receiver volume with the new receiver supplying the center channel, RSW 12" sub, and the small SS speakers on the side and rear. The sub (max volume) helped reduce some nodes. The 7.1 receiver setting is Dolby PLC-II. The levels were set with the Avia test disc. The equalizer is set for +5 at 30hz, +2 at 60hz, -2 at 240 hz, -2 at 480 hz. and 0 on all the rest. The bass and treble controls are set to 3/4 position on the old receiver with the loudness 1/2 way up. These settings are still in flux. The new receiver doesn't have much balls and thats why I use it as a pre-amp for the old receiver. The SPL is around 95 to 105 and sounds pretty good.

I can't give you any mathematical formulas for my results, just trying different setups. If I were going to build an HT for 250 grand I would avoid any dimension close to 17 ft. And yes the book was given to my uncle and I can't remember the name of the author.

JJK

[mas]

mas:

Initial installation in 1965 of the k-horns and cornwall powered center channel were in an "L" shaped room with the system on the long 24 ft wall. The short wall was 12 ft with an open dining room attached. The longer section had 15 ft with a long hallway attached. There was an open beam ceiling. Everything sounded pretty good. Later in 1968 moved to an apartment with living room/dining room/kitchen attached. Installed the system on what appeared to be the longest wall and everything sounded like crap---reduced bass and lower SPL threshold. The overall sound was not very clean. I checked the acoustical engineering book and the DUDE says avoid a 17 ft dimension as it creates too many problems. I measured the wall and it was exactly 17 ft. In 1969 moved the system to an older house with huge rooms and installed on the 24 ft wall with about 20 ft other wall and 10 ft ceilings. The sound came back to life and the SPL was higher then the first two installations. In 1971 moved the system to another house (present location) and installed on the 24 ft wall with the other wall being 13 ft. Therre are 3 doorways, 4 windows, and a fireplace and a stairway. Added new SS 7.1 receiver, equalizer, and compander/expander while using the old receiver to power the k-horns with equalizer and expander/compander on the old receiver. The volume control of the new receiver controls the old receiver volume with the new receiver supplying the center channel, RSW 12" sub, and the small SS speakers on the side and rear. The sub (max volume) helped reduce some nodes. The 7.1 receiver setting is Dolby PLC-II. The levels were set with the Avia test disc. The equalizer is set for +5 at 30hz, +2 at 60hz, -2 at 240 hz, -2 at 480 hz. and 0 on all the rest. The bass and treble controls are set to 3/4 position on the old receiver with the loudness 1/2 way up. These settings are still in flux. The new receiver doesn't have much balls and thats why I use it as a pre-amp for the old receiver. The SPL is around 95 to 105 and sounds pretty good.

I can't give you any mathematical formulas for my results, just trying different setups. If I were going to build an HT for 250 grand I would avoid any dimension close to 17 ft. And yes the book was given to my uncle and I can't remember the name of the author.

JJK

OK, in 1968, before anyone had the means to measure time based acoustical phenomena and before room modes were substantially analyzed, you had a problem with a particular odd shaped room with a 17 foot surface. And a book from that period said stay away from 17 feet.

Reduced bass and all. You were sitting in a null. And with coupled spaces between rooms, there is no telling just what was happening as far as the room modes...Calculators won't work (well, not precisely enough, especially in complex spaces), only measurements would.

Empirically speaking, I can tell you what is 'special' about 17 feet. As I said earlier, it is near the multiple of the average 8 foot ceiling which results in closely packed room mode center frequencies that will sum. Nothing mystical about them, and rather easily treated. But that assumes one knows what the problem is and why it occurs, other than viewing the problem as a numerologist's nightmare!

I once had a date with a blond woman who was a Scorpio. And she was a complete nut case. So I would advise all folks to avoid ALL blonds and ALL Scorpios as well.

And as far as that engineering book that recommends categorically against 17 foot walls...You are lucky to be rid of it. The author didn't have a clue.

As far as rooms with 17 foot walls; you can again feel safe to enter them. Oh, and its safe to step in the cracks in sidewalks too.

And an EQ offers minimal improvement at best for room modes. You are trying to minimize resonance, not simply a peak! Resonance is a persistence in time of a reinforced frequency due to room dimensions, not simply a matter of gain! While you (and so many others) may chose to focus on the seeming peak at a frequency, the real problem is the persistence in time - where the frequency persists long after the stimulus is gone. The gain issue is secondary to the 'boominess' that results from the lack of transient control in the room.

[]

[JJkizak]

mas:

You are right on about the scorpio blondes. This is verifiable. Judging that the 17 ft thing was almost 40 years ago I decided to cut you some slack.I am wondering though what corrections can be implemented for 250 grand, being my decision, I would build a new facility.

JJK

[garyrc]

Everyone,

Thanks for your responses thus far, and your humor, as well.

I, too, doubt if 17 feet is a magic and malevolent dimension. I imagine that for people with hum problems like mine, it would be asking for trouble to have one dimension 18.8 (O.K., 19) feet [approx. the wavelength of 60 Hz hum] or 9.4 feet [approx. the wavelength of 120 Hz hum].

Those dimensions would be easy to avoid in our proposed room. Since the ceiling will be slanted, it will only be at 9.4 feet for a tad.

Our hum problem [subtle, but present] sounds like that 120 Hz first harmonic, and we've traced it to the NAD T163. NAD worked on it but could not eliminate the hum. We looked for ground loops. The hum comes and goes -- weird. The NAD may be picking it up from some intermittent source.

MAS, it sounds like you've been to Corvallis. Actually, I find most tree-devoted folk charming.

I was just chatting with a tree today. It whispered to me a line from George Bernard Shaw, "The average tree conducts its affairs better than the average man conducts his."

[Bill H.]

Gary,
An Inexpensive fix for the Hum is a Ground Loop Isolator from PartsExpress.com

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=265-012&CFID=1125299&CFTOKEN=82015390

[gaspr]

You have probably thought of this already, but you might want to check

in with any local high end home theater dealers,and ask them if they

could recommend any contractors?? Might help if they think you

may be a potential customer. Just a thought...