Crossover options for Klipschorns

[psg]

Yeah, I likely wouldn't go as high as $200 for a used one. But I also have to add shipping to Canada and a 15% tax at the border if I order it from the US. At least our dollar is worth something these days. It was weird to look at ebay today and see prices in US dollars and the Canadian equivalent in parenthesis actually lower than the US price.

[psg]

Part of the reason to try the active crossover route is to time-align the drivers.

Does anyone know what the actual offsets are?

What kind of audible difference does it make on Klipschorns if they are correctly aligned?

Thanks !

[gaspr]

You know what makes a nice 6-channel volume control to put after the Behringer (to allow it to work at full input signal)?

An HT receiver with 6-channal inputs and pre-outs! Even

better, I could use the 6 amps in the receiver to drive the pair of

speakers too.

If I am not

mistaken, the 6 channel receiver could also be used for the

delay...when you set the distance from the listening position.

Only thing it won't do is the cross over ...

[Groomlakearea51]

Part of the reason to try the active crossover route is to time-align the drivers. Does anyone know what the actual offsets are? What kind of audible difference does it make on Klipschorns if they are correctly aligned? Thanks !

I tried a RANE unit a month or so ago when I tri-amped a pair of Klipschorns. Set Rane AC-24 delay for mid-bass (that's the one on the Rane unit for "normal") to "0"; Set the delay for the midrange to 2.4 ms; set the tweeter to 7.4 ms. The "ramp" was set at the mid mark to start with. Ended up with 7.2ms delay for tweet; 2.0ms delay for mid. Gain controlled with each individual amp, and ended up with (I think) 7.5 ms for the tweeter, and 3ms for the mid, but I can't find my notes (Moving stereo related stuff getting ready for the "dedicated" room). I'd try several different settings and see what sounds best to your ears.

[psg]

So the bass bin lags the mid by 2.4 ms and the tweeter by 7.4 ms ?

Thanks!

Someone on another forum actually offered to let me borrow his Behringer and try it out on my system! So I will compare:

CD player ---analog---> h/k receiver ---> Klipschorns w/ AA passive

to

CD player --digital--> Behringer --6-channel-analog--> h/k receiver --> Klipschorn drivers

:-)

[gaspr]

In the Heyser K-horn review, he measured the delays as

follows...midrange was 1.68mS behind tweeter...woofer was 8.4mS behind

the tweeter.

[Groomlakearea51]

Correct on Heyser: When I fooled around with the RANE unit, I set the delays only to what sounded best for me, my ears, etc. I just probably liked how I had it set. Dunno. I only used the unit for one day and had to take it back. I played mostly vocal heavy stuff (the mood of the day...). What I like about these units is that you can adjust/ tweak the delay to suit your tastes.

[DrWho]

Did you post that signal path before and I just overlooked it?

Running digital from the CD Player into the Behringer is bound to be the better sounding solution [Y] (provided the analog section on your HK is a true analog bypass)

[michael hurd]

Finding a 6 channel analog in receiver with pre-outs is a fantastic solution with minimal work. Set the delays in the menu of the Behringer and you can also try a steeper crossoever slope. Keep in mind if you do use different amplifiers the phase shift through the amplifiers will be different and consequently the delay time in msec will be different, if you use a different amplifier brand / type for the HF, MR and LF horn sections.

[PrestonTom]

Sounds like things are coming together. A couple of points however.

First : The total difference in delay between the drivers mostly consists of the physical offsets and hence a propagation delay. In addition to this are smaller delays caused by phase shifts (Michael mentioned ones that are possibly in the different amps) but there is also an important delay coming from the processor (crossover). Since the filters are implemented as a convolution (delay, multiply and add) this will add a delay which could differ in each channel. This may not be small and could be on the order of 100s of usec to 1s of msec. It will depend on the length of the filter (usually a function of the filter's steepness) and some overhead. This must be included. The moral of the story is that if you use an oscilloscope and impulse signal to measure the delay differences, make sure the impulse is also going through the crossover's filter (convolution).

Second: Some of the Behringers put out a pro level signal rather than a line level signal (8-10 volts vs about 1 volt). Can the inputs on the receiver handle that level? It's not the end of the world, since a pair of resistors or a transformer can deal with that problem.

Good Luck,

-Tom

[psg]

Good point about the high level output.
I remembered that I also had to deal with the XLR to RCA adapters, but there's also the signal level to worry about.

[PrestonTom]

The XLR to RCA adaptor is not hard. You are simply losing one of the "hots" and cutting the signal voltage in half. This is a cable you can wire up yourself.

-Tom