Mattevt Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 disclaimer: I looked for a relevant thread to post this in...I may not have looked hard enough. So I had been toeing-in my kg 3.5s for quite awhile. I didn't really have any legitimate reason for it, it just felt like the right thing to do for some reason. Today I "un-toed" them. Vast (positive) difference. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 There are a lot of things that could be going on in your room that could totally yield the results you experience. I might argue though that it would be more ideal if you could address whatever it is that is causing the untoed configuration to sound better. In other words, if it sounds better then by all means leave it untoed. But when it comes time to upgrade or whatever, I think it would be beneficial to investigate why toeing in doesn't sound better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattevt Posted November 7, 2007 Author Share Posted November 7, 2007 I could say with full confidence that my room is less than ideal. Considering it's a basement sectioned off by the stairs by some drapeage. There are no usable corners. I'd have an easier time if the heater wasn't wrapping the only usable pair of corners. I guess I'm not looking to use the room as a vehicle for the sound because honestly, if I move a table, I have one free corner. The matching corner goes into the laundry room. Come summer time everything will be back to good. I guess I'm just surviving right now. I'm just curious if anyone else experienced similar circumstances. What would be the benefits of toeing in vs. not and vice versa given proper room dimensions etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 In most cases, speakers sound better on-axis, that is, toed in to face directly at the listener. Tweeters in particular lose volume as you move away from the straight-on listening position, so the tonal balance of the speaker will change. You may have an unusual room, or do you find that toeing-in the speakers makes them sound too harsh? What was the improvement that you noticed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattevt Posted November 7, 2007 Author Share Posted November 7, 2007 Being fairly new to this I don't know an effective way to put this into words... I notice a more full sound, I guess is the best I can come up with. It wasn't exactly "bad" toed in it just sounded...narrow(?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted November 8, 2007 Share Posted November 8, 2007 You mean like the soundstage seemed closed in and it opened up more when you reduced the toe-in? That can happen. It may take some experimenting to arrive at the optimum for your system in your room. I take measurements and make notes. It helps me learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lwhaples Posted November 8, 2007 Share Posted November 8, 2007 I see you are close to home,just wanted to say Hello. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted November 8, 2007 Share Posted November 8, 2007 Hello fellow Vermonter I am in the Burlington area if I can ever help you with anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted November 8, 2007 Share Posted November 8, 2007 I find in my room the more I toe them in (R to R ear, L to L ear) that the lead vocal is more centered, and doesn't get lost in the performance. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattevt Posted November 8, 2007 Author Share Posted November 8, 2007 Hello fellow Vermonter I am in the Burlington area if I can ever help you with anything. Good to know! I'm fairly sure I'll be contacting you before I leave for Alaska in August. Out of curiosity, for what price (if any) would you part ways with your heresy's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted November 8, 2007 Share Posted November 8, 2007 A couple of months ago I did have them for sale actually, however I just downsized my rear speakers by selling the Klipschorn's I had in the back and stepped down to Cornwalls so I am now using the Heresy's as my rear effects/centers. I am on the prowl for another pair of Cornwalls and if I find a set in the immediate area I will indeed sell the Heresy's. I was asking like $400 they have updated networks, new wiring and spade lugs. Check Craigslist VT and AudioGon regularly a pair will come up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBryan Posted November 8, 2007 Share Posted November 8, 2007 My listening position is 12' from the speaker plane and in this rather shallow setup, its my experience that angling speakers to directly face the listening position along with placing the speakers in a equidistant triangle is a good place to start. I'm essentially overriding all but the worst room reflections and listening close to a near-field setup - kind of like a headphone effect. In this setup, harsh-sounding tweeters and distortions from the other drivers would likely be an indication of either faulty speaker design (which we all know Klipsch is incapable of ;-) ), equipment problems upstream or just bad system synergy. The soundstage and image should be quite defined but a bit flattened and compressed with most speakers (single-drivers and monitor-sized speakers aren't as affected). Moving the speakers away from each other along the plane (but still facing the listening position) will expand the soundstage but at some point the image will be compromised and it will eventually collapse. I listen to a recording with a strong center image (a vocalist works best for me) and I stop moving the speakers at the point just before the center image becomes unfocused (the singer is well-defined in the center). Now, toeing the speakers out should increase the soundstage but I want to keep the center image focused and I stop once I notice a difference. At this point, compromises are necessary. Ideally, I want the widest soundstage extending beyond the speakers and offering as much depth and height as possible - all while maintaining a crisp and focused image of the instruments and vocalists in their respective locations. The best mix may require moving the speakers closer together or toeing them in slightly - each move requiring adjustments to both axis. Additionally, the drivers on my 2-ways are independent of each other so I also have to adjust the top horn's distance and tilt but that's not a consideration for most folks. The fine tuning is fairly time-consuming and I'm forced to take breaks or my ears and mind turn to mush. In the end, the adjustments may be only fractions of an inch so accurate measurements are essential and actually save time and alleviate frustration. Using well-recorded tracks that I'm very familiar with helps a lot. Most often, I use Sonny Rollins' 'Saxophone Colossus' to tweak the image in mono, then Bela Fleck's 'Outbound' for stereo and finally Little Feat's 'Waiting for Columbus' for the full, live image. This tends to work in my situation (shallow listening position, L-shaped room) while a different room might require changes like toeing the speakers to cross before the listening position to get the best image or such but this should be a good start for most setups. Am I forgetting something? Just my 2 cents...Have fun, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest srobak Posted November 8, 2007 Share Posted November 8, 2007 Mains are 7.5 feet spaced (center to center), toed in 15 degrees each, and my listening position is 12 feet away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted November 8, 2007 Share Posted November 8, 2007 Being fairly new to this I don't know an effective way to put this into words... I notice a more full sound, I guess is the best I can come up with. It wasn't exactly "bad" toed in it just sounded...narrow(?) You haven't mentioned how far apart your speakers are nor how far you're sitting from them. Generally speaking, having them as far apart as you are from them (if you're ten feet away, space them ten feet apart) is a good starting point. When the speakers are fairly close together, small changes in toe-in are very noticeable. For example, you can wind up with a sweet spot that's barely as wide as your head. Moving the speakers further apart will open up the soundstage and make small adjustments less critical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattevt Posted November 8, 2007 Author Share Posted November 8, 2007 They are about 8 feet apart. When I listen, I'm usually 9-10 feet away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted November 8, 2007 Share Posted November 8, 2007 That should work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted November 8, 2007 Share Posted November 8, 2007 You'll be wanting to seek the advice of Forrest WooDog, founder of the 'Woodog school of listening' wherein one sits entirely motionless with eyes softly shut, rising from the chair occasionally to adjust a Cornwall 2-4mm at a time until perfect soundstage is realized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattevt Posted November 8, 2007 Author Share Posted November 8, 2007 You'll be wanting to seek the advice of Forrest WooDog, founder of the 'Woodog school of listening' wherein one sits entirely motionless with eyes softly shut, rising from the chair occasionally to adjust a Cornwall 2-4mm at a time until perfect soundstage is realized. That sounds tedious, but interesting. I'll probably try that, or a variation thereof. I appreciate all the responses. It was also nice running into a couple people from the homeland of cheese and magic hat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 You'll be wanting to seek the advice of Forrest WooDog, founder of the 'Woodog school of listening' wherein one sits entirely motionless with eyes softly shut, rising from the chair occasionally to adjust a Cornwall 2-4mm at a time until perfect soundstage is realized.It's just not the same without you demonstrating the proper posture....we should take a video of that and put it online somewhere [Y] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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