LaScala and subwoofer as Khorn replacement?

[redwood forest]

I presently have a pair of Khorns and a pair of TacT subwoofers that go down to 13Hz. The Marchand variable active subwoofer crossover is presently set at 35Hz so the subwoofer can take over after the Khorns drop out at that frequency. A Bryston 7B-ST 500 watt amp and a Placette Passive Pre provide the power and control of the subs. This signal is fed into an Active Placette Pre so the Khorns and subwoofer can be controlled simultaneously. This works perfectly, but my question is could the Khorns be substituted with LaScalas with the subwoofer crossover raised to 55Hz. to provide the same quality of sound as the Khorns with the crossover set at 35Hz?

[Daddy Dee]

La Scalas with a sub certainly allow them to sound at their best. I came to truly enjoy my LaScalas after adding a sub. On some occasions when shutting down the sound, I'd hear the sub output w/o the mains. I was surprised at how little LF sound it took to make the LaScalas sound complete.

I am certain you can get the sub dialed in correctly with the LaScalas. While it will provide immense improvement on a LaScala system, comparing it to Khorns might be disappointing.

Using the same drivers and crossovers, one would think LaScala sound to be pretty much identical to Khorn sound, except for bass. The surprising thing to me was how much bigger Khorn sound is than LaScala sound. The only thing I can think of to explain this is that snugged into the corners the Khorn HF is able to load the room with sound better than LaScala. LaScala is no slouch, of course, but there is no way to get a LaScala HF in the same position as the Khorn. It was one of the most surprising audio discoveries for me.

[Guest " "]

It would not sound the same. The internal volumes of the woofer sections are different. The LaScala bass cabinet has a higher reach than the Khorn cab. As already stated, the khorn cab uses the room corners to extend the horn effect.

[IndyKlipschFan]

Realistically, you might want to cross it over at around 80htz (through your amp) and then take the sub up to 80 as well and take a re listen!! Michael and I have had this disscussion around 20 htz above the cutoff points.. so if it is 53 fopr the Scala look at 73 htz or more...as a guide.. It just seems to blend more effortlessly here in this region.

Use a spl meeter, you might have too much bass by ear. And then slowely dial in to taste if thet does not "toot your horn!" LOL

I am spolied, I have split La Scla's, and the tops are up in the air about 16 inches on risers and a milk carton. Both toed in to the listening position! That LIFITING of the mids and highs IMO is what makes them sound so much bigger and closer to a K horn sound. Martched in with the subs... It is breathtaking. Those with split cabinets have the ability to enjoy it this way. Think of the new P 39, the Ref 7's, k horns... that upper end is off the floor and at or above where you would be if you were sitting down enjoying a good listen!

Now comparing them to the bottom end of a K horn, there is no question the k horn will stomp it in a room with good corners. I will argue most of us just do not have the perfect room, and the ability to point the La Scala exactly where you want it, reguardless, is the home run we need. Add the sub and it is again breathtaking.

Even in a HT experience a K horn needs a sub.. Those that have added it, know this to be true! Confused you enough? LOL

So not a replacement..... But dialed in right... Breathtaking!

[Marvel]

The La Scalas will take up more room. If you already have the Khorn tucked into corners and it works, I would question why you would want to switch, unless you intend to rearrange things/move, etc.

[redwood forest]

Actually the Khorns take up more room, because they are positioned out in the room facing the sweet spot and forming a 9 foot equilateral triangle with the sweet spot. I am able to do this with very thick baffles behind the Khorns like the 60th anniversary editions. The subwoofers are also corner loaded speakers and positioned in the rear corners 9 feet from the sweet spot. My thinking is that placed out in the room, the LaScalas would be more aesthetically pleasing than the Khorns at the same position, but NOT at the expense of sound quality.

[DrWho]

I find that the mid bass performance of the lascala exceeds that of the khorn...less folds means less distortion. You should really look into the Lascala2 though...or bracing for the stock lascalas. The side walls vibrate quite a bit and will muddy up the sound.

However, that TacT sub isn't going to be able to reproduce 50-80Hz better than the Khorn. In other words, you'll be sacrificing one octave for the better performance of another octave. I don't think the Lascala is as much better in the midbass as the Khorn is better than the sub at bass (until of course the point where the khorn doesn't go low enough). Some might perceive it as more of a lateral shift.

However, if you got yourself a more potent subwoofer, then I think you'll find that Subwoofer + Lascala sounds better than the Khorn. I would also agree with the notion of an 80Hz crossover point.

Do you have any form of delay on the subwoofer channel? If you've got your subs in the corner and the mains pulled out a bit, you're asking for some serious phase cancellation with the lascala - especially with a higher crossover point. The longer path through the folding in the Khorn and the lower crossover frequency is going to be a lot closer to ideal (not to mention it's a crossover in a less noticeable range). It would be a shame to experience less bass with the lascala+sub and blaim it on something other than the misalignment...

[redwood forest]

DrWho, what you are saying about the TacT sub is correct, but which sub /amp combo will do the job correctly? I have been looking seriously at the LaScala II ever since it came out. It's appearance is a vast improvement over LaScala I, but still needs some more work. With the one inch construction boards, LaScala II is now solid as a rock. As for time delay, none is required because both the speakers in front and both subwoofers in the rear corner are all nine feet from the sweet spot. I have found that the subwoofers work well with the Khorns with both producing equal volumes in their frequency ranges. However, when the subwoofers have the crossover point moved to 80Hz., the subs are much louder in the 40-80Hz. range than they are in the 15-40Hz. range. I'm thinking about having two subs with one working in 40-80Hz. range and the other working in the 15-40Hz. range. Each sub will have it's own separate crossover/amp/attenuator combination.

[DrWho]

Well I suppose I could start off by mentioning something obnoxious overkill and then back off from there [] A pair of these outta be able to keep up just fine:
http://www.klipsch.com/products/details/kpt-884.aspx
(just keep in mind those are 1/2 space measurements....in a corner in a room it's gonna be more like -3dB at 18Hz).

As far as running multiple subs, I think you get into issues of price points versus performance. In other words, for any fixed budget I might argue that better performance can be achieved by covering 2.5 octaves (from 15Hz to 80Hz) with both drivers than two separate drivers covering different bandwidths.

Were you thinking of going DIY?

Btw, are you accounting for the ~7ft the sound travels inside the basshorn on the khorn before it gets to the front of the speaker? With a higher crossover frequency do you notice that you're able to localize the subwoofers behind you?

I think if you wanted to take a large step forward in performance you should check out the Jubilee (PWK's final upgrade to the khorn)....though you did mention aesthetics so maybe that's outta the question - unless you wanna perty it up yourself like what Rigma did. It's got quite a bit less distortion than the Khorn and it's midbass performance is cleaner than the lascala. It digs as low as the Khorn too, so you could still stick with a lower subwoofer crossover frequency. It also doesn't require corners (self-contained like the lascala).

[redwood forest]

Dr. Who, the KPT 884 subwoofer only goes down to 27Hz. The RT 12d sub might be a better choice with a maximum low of 19Hz. One of these subs will create a 120 dB output which is the threshold of pain, and two of these subs will double that output. The RT 12d also has cherry wood finish which is a nice touch.

I think you are right about the multiple subs with different frequency ranges being a problem. Perhaps I'll have better luck with the above subs maintaining a flat dB level over the 2 octaves.

The Khorns that I already own are made from raw plywood with no hardwood, no finish, no nothing. Klipsch built these thirty years ago and are no longer offered. I've tried many times to decorate them but without success. This time I'm going for a finished model so the Jubilee is, as you said, out of the question.

If I switch to the LaScala, the seven foot sound path of the Khorn and it's bass sound delay will no longer be a problem.

As you said, the Khorn, LaScala, and Jubilee all have their strong and weak points. So unless Klipsch comes up wth the perfect speaker, I'll have to evaluate the whole picture and make a decision. Thanks for your help and let me know if you have any more suggestions.

[DrWho]

Well there's always the Palladium...

If you do any subwoofer shopping you might find this interesting:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/6015-index-subwoofer-tests-manufacturer-model.html

[Islander]

The Khorns that I already own are made from raw plywood with no hardwood, no finish, no nothing. Klipsch built these thirty years ago and are no longer offered. I've tried many times to decorate them but without success. This time I'm going for a finished model so the Jubilee is, as you said, out of the question.

Dr. Who, the KPT 884 subwoofer only goes down to 27Hz. The RT 12d sub might be a better choice with a maximum low of 19Hz. One of these subs will create a 120 dB output which is the threshold of pain, and two of these subs will double that output. The RT 12d also has cherry wood finish which is a nice touch.

If looks are important and price is not an issue, La Scala IIs would be better looking and better sounding than original La Scalas.

As for a sub going down to "only" 27Hz, that may not be very important, depending on what you listen to. A four-string bass guitar's lowest note is around 40Hz, while a five-string bass guitar will go as low as 30Hz. Other than some rap and electronica, or certain organ music, like some pieces written by Saint-Saens, there's not a lot of music in the 20Hz range. Even explosions don't have all that much really low bass content. If you have room for a KPT-884, you might be happy with it, unless you really prefer the looks of the of the RT-12d. Cherry wood could be very pretty.

How low a sub can go depends, to a great deal, on your room and where the sub is in the room. The lowest point where my sub produces useful output can vary by 5-8Hz, depending on its location in the room. Lowest doesn't always mean smoothest, either. It's all a compromise.

Using an equalizer with the sub can help smooth out some peaks and dips, many of which are caused by the room.

Finally, setting a sub's crossover point based on published speaker frequency response claims is really shooting in the dark. Listening and testing with at least an SPL meter will give you much better odds of getting a smooth bass response where the speaker and sub overlap. La Scalas can sound good with the sub crossed over as high as 120 or even 150Hz. At that point, of course, you'll want to set them at "Large", with the LFE set at "both", so the Scalas don't lose what low bass they have.

This is just what works for me. Experiment and see what works best for you.

[redwood forest]

Islander, organ music is my bag. I have a recording of Bach's Taccata And Fugue In D Minor performed at one octave below Bach's composition to take advantage of the organ's 64 foot pipes. I know that my system will not reproduce these 8Hz notes, but the Radio Shack SPL meter was measuring 104dB at 20Hz. This was a jaw-dropping experience. I have another recording of Mussorgsky's Pictures At An Exhibition done with an organ performing down to the same notes. The shock wave was awesome.

Using an equilizer for the woofer is a good idea. I'm having trouble maintaining a flat dB line from 80Hz down to the lowest limits. Originally I was going to use two subs with each taking care of one octave (80 to 40Hz for one and 40 to 20Hz for the other). An equilizer sounds a lot more practical.