mike9186 Posted January 7, 2002 Share Posted January 7, 2002 First, it is REAL hard to figure out how to Post a Message on this damn board..... Quick question for y'all: Has anyone preferred a non-damped (meaning rope caulk) midrange squaker? I have a pair of old Heresy's running on Bottlehead Paramours and I did the mod late last weak. Well, I must say I am not sure I like the change. Maybe it takes time to get used to it, maybe the Paramours are 'Tubey' enough to not make the mids sound shrill. I have one layer of rope caulk on them. The new sound is much much duller and less involving and the highs for somereason sound very muffled. One of the aspects to the speakers that I really like is the presence and immediacy of the sound. It seems to go away with the damping. I know it all comes down to personal taste, but I am just curious if I am the only person out there who feels this way. Thanks much, Mike Baker ------------- Klipsch Heresy (rewired Squawkers and mids with 22 guage magnet wire) woofer with CAT-5 Tweaked Bottlehead Paramours Tweaked Bottlehead Foreplay Pioneer DVD with MSB Link DAC Tara Labs Cabling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 7, 2002 Share Posted January 7, 2002 This is a very interesting question and although I have not yet dampened my Cornwall I horns, I have considered it. Still, I have many of the same concerns here. I know most of the loons within this place practially tap dance with delight at the horn dampened results...yet I still wonder if it would not be easy to do too much of a good thing. Frankly, with my Linn-Rega-Cary-Moondogs setup, I am not getting much ringing that I can detect. Of course, the great thing is the mod is reversable...as well as adjustable. Perhaps just a slight bit of caulk is in order, although many on here put multiple layers over said horns. For some reason, I too share my doubts about the extent of how far to take this mod or whether it is really necessary with top flight amplification in the first place. kh system one online / alternate components / asylum listing f>s> This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 01-08-2002 at 08:17 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShapeShifter Posted January 7, 2002 Share Posted January 7, 2002 I too have considered it but not done it. My Belle and Heresy fronts get pre-audio out to Anthem Amp 1 & Dynaco Series II. So far I don't hear any shrill or harshness of sounds. Could be due the laid back and smooth nature of the NAD's processing, or perhaps my old ears can't detect any if it they exist. Until I actually hear sounds that are annoying, think they will stay bone stock. Wes ------------------ "KLIPSCH IS MUSIC"f> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynnm Posted January 8, 2002 Share Posted January 8, 2002 To a great extent hi-fidelity comes down to a matter of personal taste and perception. I was at a client's home recently and remarked how nice his speakers sounded to me. He said they are an old pair of Tannoy Dual Concentrics and as much as he liked them he felt they were not up to modern standards. He really was considering something newer. I went home and listened to some music similar by the same artists and it was true that my KLF30's were more revealing but those Tannoys had such a sweet sound that if I were in the market for a new setup I would have had had to do some serious listening. I am sure that in the end I would have bought the KLF's but nonetheless the mellow sound of those old Tannoys is such that I would tell anyone who asks that -"If you like the sound and can get them at a reasonable price -Buy them!!' ------------------ It is meet to recall that the Great Green Heron rarely flies upside down in the moonlight - (Foo Ling ca.1900) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 8, 2002 Share Posted January 8, 2002 I like it and might even consider another layer if not for the cheap EQ I have now, which can reduce the 5-6 kHz glare, but the Feb 2000 issue of Stereophile talks about how big old horns were meant to resonate with the music ("God is in the Nuances") ... ------------------ Colin's Music System Cornwall 1s & Klipsch subs; lights out & tubes glowing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hardy Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 FWIW: I felt damping the MR horns on my 1974 Cornwalls smoothed things out in a way I preferred. One layer of rope caulk on the MR. ...possibly the audio placebo effect, I'll grant you. If you don't care for the damped horn sound, the mod is readily reversible. Indeed, it's the only mod I am likely to try on my Cornies, for just that reason. all the best, mrh ------------------ all the best, mrh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc1091 Posted January 10, 2002 Share Posted January 10, 2002 Yes I've thought about it. I've never heard a Heresy with the rope caulking. I have heard my Heresys ring (but it is only annoying at high sound levels). I have resisted the change because I've feared that it would remove some of the brassyness of the Heresy that I enjoy. Your post only reinforces this opinion. I think I would enjoy much more moving the horn mountings to the exterior of the mortarboard a la Heresy IIs thus eliminating the difraction at the openings of the horns. I'd also like to add an extra tweeter to take the Heresy from 17Khz to 30 Khz (I know, 20 Khz is supposedly the limits of hearing, and perhaps less now that I am not 20 something). And then a subwoofer to fill out the bass from 50hz to +/- 20hz. Anyhoo..maybe Klipsch will develop a new Heritage line once the supply of drivers for the old Heritage line runs out. Ideally, they would address some of these issues in the new designs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike9186 Posted January 10, 2002 Author Share Posted January 10, 2002 Well I did it. I took the rope caulk off the squakers (and added some braided Cat-5 to the input wire and to the woofer while I was at it!) The sound: back to exactly where I like it. Up front presentation, a more immediate mid and high end...sounds like Klipsch. I really found that the rope caulk made the speakers sound more like conventional box-driver speakers. I think that since I am using Bottlehead Paramours with the sweet 2A3 sound AND magnet wire to the squaker and tweet (which smooths things out Better, in my opinion, than the rope caulk) that the extra caulk-tweak just wasn't necessary. Next: Move the horns to the front of the baffle! Just because I didn't personally like this tweak doesn't mean I am not going to keep trying! Mike B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 10, 2002 Share Posted January 10, 2002 Are you using the 30g Magnet wire? I know a lot have talked of this mod. IF not, what gauge did you go with? Colin, I still cant believe you are running your signal through an Equalizer! There goes the simple cirucit the 2A3 Paramour brings to the equation. I know you are trying to help your situation, but could there by other more enticing options? I have never in my life hearda normal equalizer do anything but take away transparency, openess, and air. Also, the boosted treble in the 16k region sounds artificial to me and too hot. Something else must be up in your sysem given the components. I would look into your preamp and wire. Also, and I said this before, why not get the original Type B crossover? I saw a mint pair go on ebay awhile back for dirt. I think this would actually be a more valid upgrade than even the Alk in many ways and possibly (from what I have heard) a more musical one. Also, the magnet wire is another option that many applaud outside of this forum. Interestingly, Mike9186 is using the Paramours as well.... and with the Heresy's, no less. kh ------------------ Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike9186 Posted January 10, 2002 Author Share Posted January 10, 2002 I used the Radio shack 22 gauge magnet wire from the $3.99 3 spool pack. At first I wired everything with Mag wire and the bass went away. Then I changed the input to the x-over and wire to the woofer with CAT-5. I think this is the best of both worlds. Super sweetness with the magnet wire on the squaker and tweeter and some real bottom with the CAT-5. It is a tweak I would recommend. It is also reversible like the rope caulk tweak, although it takes a little more effort to squeeze a soldering iron into the cabinet. I will look into the type B crossover on Ebay. Also, it IS a little surprising that with such great electronics someone would throw an EQ in. I personally LOVE the sonic balance that the Bottlehead gear provides. Great feedback from this post, THANKS to everyone! Mike B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 10, 2002 Share Posted January 10, 2002 oh, I know that the EQ is a audiophile "no-no", but it works great at reducing the 5-6 kHz glare and cost all of $30, the glare is more annoying than the changes the EQ made, which are slight, though I was able to muster an almost flat frequency resposne down to 25 Hz with it, of course, overuse makes the system sound less lifelike, so I set it up or down only 3 dB here and there, but it wroks so great for none audiophiles that a pretty good system could be made much better with some in-room testing and a low cost EQ, now if only some one would make a unified tube DVD/CD player with tube gain stage, EQ and tube amps - the instant audiophile product! I am planning on bi-amping, hadn't thought of the older B networks, that is a very good idea, thanks, also thinking of better wire ... ------------------ Colin's Music System Cornwall 1s & Klipsch subs; lights out & tubes glowing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hardy Posted January 10, 2002 Share Posted January 10, 2002 In case y'all didn't know -- and on the off-chance that you might care :-) -- My Cornwalls are very happily powered by a pair of Dr. B's Paramours as well. Magnet wiring the HF and MR is an alluring possibility. I am a cable skeptic, but I was astounded by how good I/C's made with 30-ga R/S magnet wire (twisted pair) sound. ------------------ all the best, mrh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Bey Posted January 11, 2002 Share Posted January 11, 2002 Dammit Mike I hate it when people force me to think! I damped my horns when I had a SS amp. The effect was immediate and relieving. At the time, and till now, the thought process was that the horn is an amplification device. Any added sound is unwanted, be it ringing or otherwise. From that one postulates that an infinite amount of damping is desirable, so the horn structure itself lends no vibrations to the air movement. More is better, eh? I did not like the 'forward' aspect of my speakers at the time, but much has changed in my signal chain since then. Others have stated, and I believe them, that what PWK did was 'magic' in that he took middlin quality parts and made them add up to more than the whole, all without computers, btw. This was (in my pea brain) the equivalent of those violin makers like Stratavarius who built violins beyond the ken of modern makers, all by artistic feel and intuition. My money goes on intuition any day. What does that mean? I am thinking that PWK built these babies with a PP 2A3 setup and tuned it till he liked what he heard. Crimeny. It will take hours to undo, and the dynamat, while reversible (that is, removable) won't go back on again I'm pretty sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 11, 2002 Share Posted January 11, 2002 from what I understand, the cabinets of the big old horns were supposed to resonate, despite the modern day recommendations to dampen them, while the horns themselves should not ring ... ------------------ Colin's Music System Cornwall 1s & Klipsch subs; lights out & tubes glowing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 11, 2002 Share Posted January 11, 2002 That is a valid point, Colin. Cabinet damping can really do a number on the sound if overdone; I have found this out time and time again with various speakers I have owned that provide a means of adding sand or lead shot. I imagine this also comes into play when dealing with speakers made with 13-ply plywood vs something like MDF. Most of the better horns use of this enclosure type do seem to prefer that ply over the MDF approach. Still, as for the horn dampening, I think a bit of it could apply here as well. While you dont want the horns to "ring" per say, I have just been wondering whether the overuse of the dampening material would provide some of this deadening affect as well as the properties of the horn enclosure must weigh in here. BTW, I wanted to know how hard was it to get that rope caulk off and was it a mess? does it leave a bad residue on the horn? I am probably going to try it myself eventually to just test the results and wanted to know how much a pain it was to remove. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike9186 Posted January 11, 2002 Author Share Posted January 11, 2002 It took me about 10 mins to remove the caulk. I left the heat off in the living room overnight so the caulk would be good and stiff. NOTE: you will not be able to repurpose the caulk as it clumps together and forms a big and dense ball of goo. There is a slight stickiness left on the horns but nothing serious Mike B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Bey Posted January 12, 2002 Share Posted January 12, 2002 You phreaks have gone and done it. That is, convinced me to try my khorns w/o the horn damping. 10 minutes, huh. It was closer to 90 minutes for me, but then my speaks aren't Heresys. And I didn't have just rope caulk, I had dynamat as well. Both have been rendered unusable by the removal process. Too soon to render judgement, the wife is doing laundry, the shower is going, all kinds of ambient noise issues right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnorv Posted January 12, 2002 Share Posted January 12, 2002 At the same time that I dampened my mid range horns with dynamat, I also pulled the bug screens. Overall there was a big improvement. I just did a reinstall of the bug screens (I have the push button connectors to the mid range driver). The improvement in sound without the screens is dramatic. To paraphrase and old joke, You would sound like this too if you had been strained through a screen door. I would highly recommend pulling the screens if at all possible. I would say that in general, any sound that is added by cabinet or horn resonance is unwanted and only serves to reduce the quality of music. I doubt that any sound engineer figures on added horn resonance to enhance the recording. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted January 12, 2002 Share Posted January 12, 2002 I bought a roll of dynamat one or two years ago when this topic was hot & heavy. It's still sitting in the closet. I really havn't felt the need to try it out. I've been building various bass horn cabinets, trying some Altec & University drivers & horns to see what they sound like. Replaced Klipsch crossovers and Klipsch drivers with more Klipsch crossovers & drivers so that all my speakers match, but still no dynamat. I don't really object to the way they sound. But to be fair , I should put it on one of my spare K-400 horns one of these days and pop it in and see what it sounds like. Q. ------------------ Q-Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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