Classical sessions info and playlist

[LarryC]

We had really good, attentive turnout for these three sessions Friday afternoon -- we being me and Klipsch's Steve Phillips. Steve has a great in-depth understanding of DVDs, players, and the rest of the equipment, and had no trouble getting the audio and track setup done and ready to play as soon as I stopped talking ... er, introducing ... the next selection.

The equipment was excellent, well chosen for the very high quality DTS 5.1 DVDs I had -- Aragon preamp and amp, a Palladium P-37F pair, subwoofer, and Palladium surrounds! This combination made a real difference, as I missed the subwoofer and surrounds on a P-39 setup I got to play with on Saturday. Trey had the timing and inter-session shuffling very well organized!

The three audiences were very different, but all very attentive. The first and third were intent, serious, and skeptical, while Colter's garage clean-up crew came in full of cheer, dusting themselves off on the way in and out.

I began each session with an intro to classical music, which I summarize here. My next post will have the playlist with comments on each piece.

What Classical Music is About

Classical music differs from non-classical in a several ways:

• Numbers and kinds of instruments. The symphony orchestra (the full-blown ensemble) has many more types of instruments and more of them, than non-classical – 5 types of strings, 7 or more of woodwinds, 4 or more of brass, and a potentially huge variety of percussion. A full symphony orchestra has about 100 players, and even reduced-size "chamber" orchestras have 50 or 60.
• Sym orchestras have large numbers of STRINGS (violins, violas, cellos, basses) in order to compete against the louder woodwinds and brass, since strings and play the CENTRAL role in most classical. Strings in non-classical groups are fewer and usually play softly in the background.
• Classical is exceptionally complex -- much more development, and a complex hierarchy of units from phrases on up to movements. Each level aggregates to a higher one, all the way to entire symphonies, etc.
• This makes classical works quite a bit longer – a symphony, concerto, opera, or suite can last from a few minutes to over an hour for long symphonies, longer than that for some works.
• Performing classical music can be very demanding, requiring extraordinary professional skill and TOGETHERNESS, even within large string sections. Every last player is a highly-trained musician, and good orchestras have nearly all professional players.

A good conductor is key to unifying the orchestra in purpose, playing style, excitement, precision, and feeling.

While most music is WRITTEN DOWN, classical is written in large musical SCORES which display all the individual parts in precise alignment as to speed and rhythm (individual parts are printed out separately). You can see a LOT going on!

Classical is COMPOSED by very gifted individuals who are FULLY aware in their mind’s ear, how the notes he or she sets down will actually sound! This includes —

• the harmonies
• the exact rhythmic interplay between individual instruments, especially in complicated rhythms. This CANNOT be improvised!
• the SOUND of the piece – the composer decides on which instruments and WHICH PART of their range to use, to produce the desired sound from individual and grouped instruments. Great composers are amazingly aware in their own mind of the sound they are creating.

The COMPOSER writes down EVERY individual note for each instrument, often including how the notes are played, and the players play EVERY note (as a rule). Composers do not have others "arrange" their music!

Classical seems to be intimidating to those who haven’t gained confidence in talking about it or seeking it out. It's sometimes hard to start a conversation in it and keep it going.

"Classical" can mean two different things in music –

• The whole genre of composed music from Medieval times to the present day.
• The very formal, reserved style of music composed between 1750 to 1827, by Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven. This was preceded by the Renaissance (1500's) and Baroque (1600-1750) eras, and followed by the Romantic (1827 - 1913) and Modern (1913 - present).

The playlist is next.

[LarryC]

Here is the playlist I used, complete with DVD catalog numbers:

J.S. Bach, Partita No. 3 for Solo Violin. Gidon Kremer, "Bach to Bach." EuroArts 2055638

• Like the similar Bach six sonatas for solo cello, the writing is CONTRAPUNTAL, in which the music is made up entirely of independent melodic lines rather than what we usually hear – a main melody set to harmony. One can hear more than one "voice" (high, middle, low) being played or inferred simultaneously. Although the camera does him no favors, this close-up of his flawless performance fully displays the piece’s extreme difficulty and his mastery of playing it. Note that Bach wrote EVERY note he plays, and that he plays EVERY note Bach wrote in this.

J.S. Bach, Concerto in D Minor for Two Violins, Largo movement. Isaac Stern and Schlomo Mintz, "The Huberman Festival." Kulture D4250

• This movement is one of the greats in the concerto literature IMO. The video gives the viewer/listener the great advantage of easily following the intricate parts of the 2 solo violins by closely watching them as well as listening. This is harder to do if you only hear it. A very absorbing movement.

W.A. Mozart, Symphony No. 41, Finale (molto allegro). Kammerorchester CPE Bach, Haenchen cond. EuroArts 2056018

• Mozart wrote this, his last symphony, 3 years before his death. The last movement is a tour de force that combines five themes into a fugal coda. This CHAMBER ORCHESTRA plays standing up, except for the cellos, and really lays into it. The precision playing by these superb musicians is amazing. Excellent conductor. Recorded in Berlin, 2005.

Hector Berlioz, Hungarian March from Damnation de Faust. Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Solti cond. ArtHaus 102 023

• Berlioz was a phenomenal composer – an amazing innovator in melody, harmony, and orchestral effects, as displayed in the Hungarian March. He was a great song writer and wrote a major book on orchestration. Recorded in the Royal Albert Hall, London, in 1989. Georg SOLTI is an electrifying conductor and a strong presence on the podium

Antonin Dvorak, Symphony No. 9 "From the New World," first movement (Adagio - Allegro molto). Berlin Philharmonic, Abbado cond. EuroArts 20560482

• Dvorak, son of a provincial butcher in what is now the Czech Republic, became a famous composer in Europe, which led to his being made Director of a new National Conservatory of Music in New York City in 1892, where he was introduced to the African-American spiritual. Dvorak wrote this symphony in 1893 using pentatonic-scale melodies that in his mind reflected Native American and African-American music. The first movement is a powerful, exciting opening to the symphony. The Largo second movement is a very famous symphony movement. This was recorded in Palermo, Italy, in 2002. The Berlin Philhamonic is one of the best orchestras in the world, and this is an outstanding taping and recording IMO. One can see precision playing and unified dynamic (loud-soft) shadings by its superb musicians. Abbado is an expressive conductor with a great connection with the orchestra.

Claudio Monteverdi, Vespers of the Blessed Virgin, Ave Maris Stella. John Eliot Gardiner, cond., et al. Archiv 073 035-9

• Monteverdi may have been the greatest composer of the early Baroque (early 1600s). He led the early transformation of music from the emotionally reserved Renaissance to the introduction of intensely emotional opera and the Italian madrigal. The Vespers, written in 1610, may be the greatest musical work before 1700. It combines psalms, earthy biblical songs, and Catholic vesper liturgy into a somewhat baffling but powerful whole. Although the writing of separate parts for instruments and voices had only been recently developed, the somewhat reconstructed orchestration shows remarkable skill. This was recorded in 1989 in the unique San Marco basilica in Venice, a world treasure over 1,100 years old with many lofts and domes, massively lined with precious gems and mosaic gold. Venice became a center of musical composition in part because of Monteverdi, and led as well in music printing and publishing. The vocal writing is beautiful and unsurpassingly sumptuous and rich. Ave Maris Stella (Hail, star of the sea) has an 8-part chorus (two 4-voice choirs) singing several stanzas (verses) with 4 instrumental "ritornellos" (returning passages) between them. Each ritornello is performed in turn by:

  o brass – (3 cornetti, 3 trombones)

  o strings – 4 violins (or 2 violins and 2 violas), cello

  o winds – 2 oboes, bassoon

  o recorder quartet.

  The chorus and the instruments all combine at the end in a final stanza and a stunning Amen.

[Coytee]

Larry,

I enjoyed your session very much. Unbeknown to me... I had previously asked you (or seen on the forum more likely) what we'd be listening to. Well... I got back to work on Monday and several CD's and DVD's that I ordered prior to leaving had arrived.

One of them, who's name I currently forget, was a bass player I heard while I was at Ralph's in London. Seems another one was some kind of classical recording. [:^)]

Turns out (and pardon that the names escape me) it is one of the DVD's you showed... not Mr. Skeleton face but the other guy who evidently spends too much time profiling his pretty face sideways to the crowd

I put it in and immediately said "HEY....I recognize that dude!!! He was in Larry's show!"

I listened to part of it last night prior to the wifey getting home. I'm going to put it in again shortly but alas... I've got to go out and drain the pond so I can change pumps.... It's going to be another 'power response' listening session rather than nearfield.

You think it will sound ok if I put it at about 125 db's and listen through 6" logs?

[Y]

[Coytee]

The one recorded in Palermo

[LarryC]

Abbado conducting the Dvorak New World. Best recorded and best VT'd of the bunch IMO. Good show!

[colterphoto1]

Thanks for the session Professor Larry and Steve P!

I know from experience that it takes quite a bit of effort and time to construct such a program and thank you for your efforts. I enjoyed this year's session more than last, I think the separate, more lengthy workshop sessions might have had something to do with that. Steve way all 'fingers flying' over the music server keypad and had things right on cue. That's how these sessions were engineered to work but some of the presenters weren't as fluent as the two of you.

Larry's preface to each piece was spot on and helped me to concentrate on which particular features of the musical piece he was trying to illustrate. The selections were well chosen and very well recorded both from an audio and photographic standpoint.

While none of the pieces were distasteful to my musical palate,I very much enjoyed two of the pieces, the Dvorak and Monteverdi. I think the conductor 'profiling' to the crowd might have really been just communiating to the first rows as the orchestral setup was rather interesting, with instruments crammed right to the precipice of the stage so the conductor has players literally to his sides. I find the manner in which instruments are arranged to be purposeful, and wonder why there isn't more separation of instruments geographically across the soundstage in the recordings? The Dvorak was very pleasing to my ear, perhaps because I enjoy that 'Americana-themed' type of classical work, like Copeland and this sounded similar to my ear. Is this the piece where the first clarinet and first flute worked together so much with each instrument used in it's best tonal range?

The Monteverdi had some small but powerful vocal 'choirlette' sections with repetitive themes played by several small grouping of instruments and was also well liked. I enjoyed these highly themed works as they are easy for me to follow. Some of my first orchestral examples were fugues played by rock ensemble and orchestra (like Deep Purple's Geminii Suite and Jon Lord's Continuo on BACH). Again though, I would have enjoyed a bit more instrument placement used in the recording. Each grouping inhabited a balcony in this grotto wall and the camera and mic did a close up on each section. It would have been very effective to have placed mics (and therefore instrument groupings) in their respective place in the sound field. However the recording as it stood was well balanced and captured the grand ambience of the hall very well. It was an enormous recording for the scarcity of musicians.

Thanks again Larry and Steve!

[LarryC]

Thanks, Michael! So what did the rest of you think?

There were about 100 instrumentalists in the Dvorak, and it wasn't possible to separate them much. The greater spacing in smaller non-classical groups is probably for show and helps fill the stage. Also, the musicians in some of those have earphones, so they don't have to be close together to hear each other. Being able to hear the other musicians around them is important in classical.

The Dvorak was the one where the flute was used by itself in the lowest part of its range for a deliberate effect. In a different place (the "second theme"), the flute and oboe played in unison for a melancholy effect, and you saw them play it side-by-side. There, they were both in their middle range -- I didn't point it out, but higher would have made the flute too silvery and dominant while lower would have made the oboe too raucous for a good blend, so, yes, Dvorak made a conscious decision about range there, too.

I'm not sure I understand the instrument placement issue in the Monteverdi -- space was limited in the basilica, and I think they wanted to use the various lofts and different levels in the 1,000-year-old basilica just like they did in Monteverdi's time. Did you think the sound field didn't reflect what you saw? I can't tell with only one good ear, ya know. I, too thought they did a good job of capturing the ambiance. They probably didn't need mics for the audience, and may have used only a few for the recording.

Scarcity of musicians? -- actually, that would have been a HUGE number for doing this in 1610!! A chorus of 20 would have been large back then, and an orchestra that large and varied would have been almost unheard of. It's now very standard for authentic performances to be no larger than that. For one thing, there is much greater intimacy and solo-like instrumental detail if they keep the violins down to 2, for example! If they did use close-up mics for the recording (mics probably weren't needed at all for the audience in the church), I liked the way they kept them out of sight. I'm not sure close micing was needed for the recording.

In the Magnificat of the Monteverdi, which I didn't play for you, the orchestra was all gathered on the main floor, and I don't recall mics being used. The soloists and choruses were placed in back and in the lofts, as in the Ave maris stella.

[Coytee]

I hope this doesn't seem like a thread hijack but could you also list the DVD you showed last year? I seem to remember part of it (prior to me running out to get sick []) panning along the length of a piano keyboard as the guy was playing?

That's the only thing I really remember about it... I was going to order it last year since I missed the show. I'd order it now if I could remember what it was.

[LarryC]

Coytee, here are the 3 or 4 DVDs from last year, and if you saw running fingers, it would have been the Bach cello sonata since I didn't have any piano. The Bach would be a good DVD in any case --

Tchaikovsky, THIRD movement (Allegro molto vivace), Symphony No. 6. Vienna Philharmonic, Herbert von Karajan, cond. A powerhouse of excitement and climax as only Tchaikovsky could write it. Sony Classical DVD, SVD 48311 (it may no longer be available).

Carl Orff, Carmina Burana, Section "In taberna". Berlin Philharmonic, Seiji Ozawa conducting, recorded in Japan with a Japanese Chorus. This brief section of the amazing 20th-century percussion-laden work features a paean to loose living, the mournful song of a roasting goose (sung in a high tenor falsetto), an Abbot who sings of drunkeness, and a chorus to drinking. This is a fine performance conducted by a youthful Seiji Ozawa. The DVD also contains a fine Beethoven's 9th symphony conducted by a shockingly aged Ozawa. Phillips DVD B0002505-09.

J.S. Bach, Suites for Solo Cello; Prelude, Suite No. 1. Mstislav Rostropovich, cello. EMI DVD 7243 5 99156-9-2. Towering works that sound like a full string group that you'll never believe comes from one solitary cello. I am currently convinced that Rostropovich was THE cellist of the 20th century, and watching this is a revelation.

I was also going to play Joaquin Rodrodrigo's Concierto de Aranjuez for Guitar and Orchestra, but didn't get to it.

Larry

[LarryC]

one of the DVD's you showed... I listened to part of it last night....

Richard, did you listen to it on your Jubes or what, and how did it sound?

[colterphoto1]

More feedback for Larry please! []

C'mon you guys, what did you enjoy or learn?

M

[Mick Bell]

Larry:

Thanks for a most enjoyable presentation on classical music. I love nearly every type of music from rock and pop to folk and jazz. But I've especially been a classical fan all my adult life and have taken many courses at the college level to enhance my understanding of this exceptional art form. I have to say that your forum was an OUTSTANDING introduction to this music. In a very short time you covered the structure of the orchestra and the main historical periods of classical music and gave examples of the music with suggestions of what to listen for. The DVDs were an added bonus giving us the opportunity to see as well as hear some of the great artists and orchestras of the world. Thanks for a wonderful session.

Mick

[Coytee]

Richard, did you listen to it on your Jubes or what, and how did it sound?

Other than the standing wave issue I seem to have in this room at about 90 hz... would "outstanding" suffice? Big?

I think I need to forget about anything stereo until I can do some room treatments.

[Seadog]

Larry,

I really enjoyed your classical session. I particularly liked the Dvoraki DVD. I am going to Fry's today to see if I can find any of those DVDs.

David

[LarryC]

Thanks, David. You may need to turn to Euroarts for some of them. I got the Monteverdi through Crotchet, a UK firm. www.crotchet.co.uk, catalog no. 0730359, for £17.31 (£2 shipping!).

[BLSamuel]

Larry,

Thanks for the excellent classical presentation. The introductions to each selection and what to listen and watch for were very informative and helpful. It's taken me a long time to get back to this post and send a reply so I'm sure I've forgotten a lot already.

I'm sure I would've missed quite a few of the things you pointed out - such as the flute playing in the low range and how it blended with the oboe in one piece. And the different period instruments. The lute you told us to watch out for was very interesting with a very long neck and created a very distinctive sound.

I agree that having the video really enhances things - while I've seen conductors before, mostly from the back the few times Ive been to the symphony and usually from the back on TV also. It wasn't near as good to show the how the conductors control or maybe their releationship with the orchestra would be a better term as on at least a couple of the video clips. I think Sir Georg Solti conducting really showed the control or and the conductor being reallly in sync with the orchestra - the wide sweeping gestures are obvious but also the very subtle hand gestures and facial expressions - an occaisonal slight smile in one direction, sort of a quick pat on the back during the performance. I think Solti's eyebrows were even involved in his communicating to the orchestra what he wanted - very interesting to watch. I think it was Claudio Abbado who also stood out as conductor on the video - in the into to the piece with the timpani it almost seemed as if there was an invisible string connecting his hand to the tympanist (tympani player) during the intro kind of like a marionette or maybe like he was doing it himself. Very interesting to watch.

Identifying the set and size of the various orchestas was also very interesting. The one in the cathedral with the period instruments was very interesting, a small group of singers with instrumentalists on this balcaony, different ones on another balcaony or another location was very interesting. The standing orchestra was also interesting.

Another thing my daughter and I noticed is that rotary valved trumpets were used for a couple of the selections. I susect this may have been due to having tried to play trumpet through high school, and my daughter is learning to play the baritone. I'm not sure I realized there were rotary valved trumpets and am sure I've never seen one before. Very intesting - here's a couple of web pages - sounds like they're distinctly different instruments though I've not done much more than scan through either web page. A Players Guide To Rotary Valve Trumpets by David H Green of the Antique Sound Workshop: http://www.aswltd.com/rotary.htm Another is a guide to all types of trumpets: http://www.petrouska.com/TrumpetGuide.htm . Very fascinating. I hope I remember to come back read through these web pages as I've only just scanned. I think that one of the articles said that the rotary valved trumpets were better for certain types of music though could not be used to play the more technically challenging works.

Very informative and entertaining presentation. I really wish I could've seen last year's. I wouldn't be opposed to making Larry's presentation an annual event. I'll probably always be new to classical music though hope to get some of my vinyl out and listen to more in the future. I do remember that I used to listen to Bach's Brandenburg Concertos quite a bit that I had copied to cassette. I think my version was by The Academy of St Martin's In the FIeld conducted by Neville Mariner.

One of the few orchestra's I've been fortunate enough to see live was the Chicago Symphony. Unfortunately, Sir Georg Solti wasn't conducting - I think the main associate conductor was conducting except for one piece that was conducted by the manager of the Chicago Nieman Marcus who had puchased the privilege at a charity auction. Talk about a rush.... one of the world's great symphonies at your command .... whew... It was a special student performance where as college students we got our tickets for 1/2 price. I kind of organized this trip and actually had to send in photocopies of everyone's student IDs. I don't recall that they checked for admission though. Even ordering several weeks in advance our tickets were all over the place with one behind another being the closest we could get any together... so I too those two and fortuanately my future wife and myself got to sit together. Unfortunately, I missed all but the last few minutes of the pre-symphony talk that was also available as part of student night. I think about half of our group made it but I ended up with the slackards who just couldn't be drug away from the planetarium or aquarium to get there on time.

Thanks again!

[LarryC]

Thanks Ben for taking the time to write your interesting reflections. The details of trumpet valves and sounds is too arcane for me! I didn't mention it, but trumpets and French horns in the Classical (Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven) and early Romantic eras (Mendelssohn, Berlioz, Weber) did NOT have valves. Instead, different notes were created solely by lip pressure and shape, and the notes were limited to only the 12 or so in the widely-spaced overtone scale. That's why Mozart's brass mostly added weight and some color, rather than playing melodic lines. The valveless, or natural, trumpet:

By Dvorak's time, trumpets and horns had valves and could play all the notes within their range.

FYI, Berlioz' innovativness led him to score Damnation for both trumpets AND cornets. Cornets had piston valves, could play many more notes than trumpets. The Berlioz also liked them for the effect of a military, bugle-like sound as opposed to the more formal, powerful sound of the trumpet. I didn't demo that at our sessions. The cornet:

The early Baroque players in Monteverdi's time had it easier -- they could play "cornetts" which had a soft trumpet-like sound but also had finger-holes and so could play all the notes within their range. They were long, dark (looked something like clarinets) and slightly curved (a la the MIDDLE instrument in the pic below). I pointed them out in the Vespers, alongside the trombones. The pair made up a very nice "brass" section.

Glad you enjoyed it!