Mallette Posted July 19, 2008 Author Share Posted July 19, 2008 As you know, Jim, I respect your opinions highly and understand the philosophy. However, would you not agree that Virgil is playing the building while the engineers ignored it? I think the approach would have been better if they'd communicated to Virgil how they wanted to mike it so he could have closed the gaps somewhat. OTOH, he'd probably have said "You can't do that and I won't adjust for it." [] Are you saying the DD and digital were cut from the same feed? I got the impression from the notes that these were different sessions. If they are the SAME session, I'd be forced to conclude that the digital muddied the bass to some degree. Dave PS - Really beautiful pix! PPS - Just realized the CD of the digital would have had to have been transcoded to 44.1 and dithered since 37.5 doesn't divide. How does it compare to the "Digital Touch" LP? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted July 19, 2008 Share Posted July 19, 2008 As I was writing (and adding the pic) to my post above, I missed your latest post, Dave, and I'm intrigued... It's my understanding from what I've read that these historic session recordings on the Ruffatti at Garden Grove were recorded between August 28 to 31, 1977 due to the strenuous nature of recording direct-to-disc with no breaks inbetween pieces. As in the linear notes from my "Digital Fox" album and CD, there were no other recordings made of the same material on the same instrument within a month of each other. I assume what we hear on any of these formats is what was simultaneously recorded between those three days in August '77 on direct-to-disc, analog tape, and digital tape. I'm guessing since on all the formats the performances are not all in the same order, there are certain selections used from either the direct-to-disc masters and digital tape masters from the 3 day session...I dunno. On my Ultragroove/Bainbridge CD this tidbit is mention though: "Originally released as a direct-to-disc collectors edition recording (UG-9003). Please note: This CD contains the same repertoire as the originally released direct-to-disc recording. However, during the direct-to-disc sessions, the simultaneous use of analog tape and the newest technology, digital tape, was employed as well. This disc is the result of the digital tape recording. Although still live, the performances and frequency balances are different." Since I no longer have the cassette copies of these LPs, and my turntable's wired-in patch cables are shot and need to be replaced, I can't at the moment play my albums to hear if indeed different performances of the same material are used. My long term memory sucks, and I haven't actually played these albums in years, so I assumed all the pieces in all the releases are all the same. Apparently not, it seems. As mentioned on the jacket notes from the Chrystal Clear LPs, the direct-to-disc process is a tension-filled, exhausting experience due to its very nature, and even with the smallest error or mistake, even if towards the end of a lacquer's side, the vinyl is lost and the entire process must start all over again! Since analog and digital masters were simultaneously made along with the direct-to-disc lacquers, any other perfectly good selections lost due to errors on the wax were duplicated anyway on both tape formats, so I guess some judicial editing was indeed used...waste not, want not! I really need to get my turntable playable again so I can listen to these performances again! We're all learning something new about these old recordings...Virgil would be so proud today that folks are still enjoying the fruits of his labor! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted July 19, 2008 Author Share Posted July 19, 2008 >However, during the direct-to-disc sessions, the simultaneous use ofanalog tape and the newest technology, digital tape, was employed aswell. This disc is the result of the digital tape recording. Althoughstill live, the performances and frequency balances are different." I've parsed that sentence and it appears contradictory. How could the PERFORMANCE be different in a SIMULTANEOUS recording? And frequency balances? If from the same mikes, it would imply that either the analog or the digital is wrong. The engineers job is to get it as it is, not achieve "frequency balance" of some kind. Certainly if these are from the same feed I find the somewhat muddied bass from the digital master to perhaps be due to flaws in the system, though, of course, it might also be from the disc mastering process. Intriquing indeed. My bet is the CD would be better if digitized at 16/44.1 rather than transcoding from 16/37.5. This is really great mind fodder for the inquisitive audiophile... You may recall what a Biggs partisan I was. I still am, but these discs caused me to finally understand what Virgil was all about. While a Biggs recording of the Bach T&F in D- on a historic German organ is alway letter perfect and marvelous Virgil squeezes every bit of gusto out of Johann and provides more proof that Bach need not be played only with the resources Bach had at his disposal but blooms under a great artist to even greater heights of ecstasy. These two guys are yin-yang, and without yin-yang there is no balance. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted July 19, 2008 Share Posted July 19, 2008 Good question, Dave...I also find that sentence somewhat vague and lacking specifics (any white papers on the '77 session recordings would be great reading). I think a custom mixer was used and no transformers or other processors were used in the recording chain. Maybe each recording device had its own set of mics, maybe not...I'd love to discuss the recording session with the late Bert Whyte; alas, that is not to be. I've always been a big fan of both Biggs and Fox...maybe more so with Virgil because he proved to the purists that Bach didn't have to be performed only on authentic tracker instruments, that his genius could also transcend to symphonic/concert instruments with shimmering, romantic strings and vox humanas and actually come alive! Leopold Stokowski proved to the world just how wonderful Bach's music could sound given the Romantic treatment, and I also think if old Bach were alive to hear Leopold and Virgil put some swing into his music on modern instruments that he would've approved (and maybe also given a thumbs-up to Wendy Carlos and her interpretations on the Moog synthesizer)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted July 20, 2008 Author Share Posted July 20, 2008 I'd still lean SLIGHTLY to the Biggs side as I feel he was almost single-handedly responsible for the renaissance of tracker organ building. However, we needed both and so what we got was a feast... Hard to speak for JSB, but I am also with you there. I think Bach would have loved it and immediately set out to create music with these "new" technologies in mind. While we think of him as rather staid and rigid now, he was really a pioneering maverick. As to the recording, my enginears say there is a decisive difference in the bass. I'd love to see the mike and equipment plan. I probably need to try to forget the bass and see what I can detect in the higher octaves. My listeners yesterday seemed to agree that these were pretty close to identical. Perhaps listening for some slight performance difference would also sort out whether these are the same time or not...though they might still be and just be different takes. Dang, have to listen to these some more... I guess somebody has to do it! Oh, well, such audiophun! Nice to have something like these to cuss and discuss...especially since everybody wins. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 You're right, Dave...everyone wins with both E. Power and Dr. Fox! Their individual interpretations on John Bach's tunes are part of what brought his ancient music to new 20th (and 21st) century ears. No matter the differences in how his music is performed and from what instruments, the fact that it's still performed today and is still as popular as ever is a living testiment to the ol' man's genius. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted July 26, 2008 Author Share Posted July 26, 2008 Time to put the paddles to this one for stage 2... I made a 1 bit, 2.8mhz transfer of Vol. 2 of the Crystal Clear Fox LP. I used just enough DBX to drop out the surface noise...not much. So, I sync up the disc and the playback from the Korg right down to the DBX setting on the LP. Neither I nor the PAW could determine which was which. The Korg is combination audiophile Ipod and Swiss army knife! Next experiment is to transcode to 24/88.2 and see how it holds up. If good, then I have found a way to archive LP's to DVD-A. Of course, I'll be able to make CD's at Redbook as well. Guys, this Korg is a winner and may be the biggest audiophile bargain ever. At 600.00 (200.00 rebate makes it 400.00 until 31 August!) it is able to record from a 1400.00 TT and do so transparently. Now I am drooling to record live music with it. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 It truely amazes me how digital recording technology has advanced to such heights in this last decade alone. If only Virgil and his recording engineers had this latest technology back then... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonelobo Posted August 8, 2008 Share Posted August 8, 2008 Just got my 2 record set of NM DBX encoded Digital Fox Volumes I & II delivered for $25. Should have even MORE dynamic range. Just thought I'd throw a little gas on the fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted August 8, 2008 Author Share Posted August 8, 2008 There certainly should be NO noise... Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted August 8, 2008 Share Posted August 8, 2008 I found a very nice copy of this one for a buck last week at the thrift store. It doesn't sound quite as good as the "OMG" Digital Volume Two LP but still holds its own. If anyone is interested, you can have it for what I paid (a buck plus shipping). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted August 8, 2008 Author Share Posted August 8, 2008 What is the instrument he is playing? If it's the Rogers, that would explain the sound. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted August 8, 2008 Share Posted August 8, 2008 Good question Dave. I'll check when I get home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 Royal Albert Hall organ in London, and at Riverside Church, NYC...no Black Beauty, although on the back of the jacket it shows VF playing the famous Rodgers touring organ. Those '70s RCA Red Seal LPs never sounded good IMO... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschfoot Posted August 17, 2008 Share Posted August 17, 2008 Virgil Fox LOVED Bach's music and shared his enthusiasm. I got turned on to Fox via a (former) girlfriend while in college. He was a rock star organist. I have several of his releases. Pipe organ is right up there with bagpipes as an instrument that evokes the spirit and soul. Wife hates it though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted July 24, 2010 Author Share Posted July 24, 2010 Time to put the paddles to this one. Several were looking for the elusive Bert Whyte masterpiece DD Crystal Clear as well as the companion Soundstream digital releases done from the backup recorder. Seems to be a number available at this time. Here Also Ebay and Acoustic Sounds. Happy hunting! I think Bert Whyte was the greatest engineer ever and these amongst the finest vinyl ever produced. If you have a serious subwoofer, keep it down if you value your windows. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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