Early digital, Virgil Fox, and OMG!

[Mallette]

I was fiddleing around with a surround back channel last night and put on a Virgil Fox disc I do not recall have played before. It was recorded the year of his death in 16/37.5. Yep, less than CD. The title is "The Digital Fox" and was release on the Ultragroove label. I expected to take it right back off the TT.

OMG!. I have NEVER heard bass like that from vinyl. We're talking E Flat, double clutching, gut busting, mother living BASS!. The Garden Grove Community Church instrument has 4 32' stops, and I swear he had all going at the same time more than once. There was none of the harshness of early digital present and the sound exceeds all but the very best of modern output. I suspect part of the reason is they left LOTS of room with not much over 15 minutes on A and even less on B...that may explain the bass, but certainly not the musicality of this recording.

Further, the pieces, two Bach's and a Jongen, are play as well or better than I've ever heard from anyone. Total excitement and Fox has utter mastery of this instrument. If you don't know much about pipe organs, you may not be aware that simply mastering the notes of a piece of music is only the beginning. Unlike piano, each and every organ is completely different both in available resources and in acoustical context. I would swear that Fox was cyborg with this instrument. Each and every timing, pause, pace, and choice of stops is shear perfection.

My pictures were totally rearranged, and I found items vibrating I'd never noticed before. Thank God the PAW and kids are in Florida visiting the MIL or they'd have fled as the house shook to the foundations. UPLIFTING!!!!

Now, the deal is that, according to the cover notes, this precise repertorire was recorded by Fox direct to disc on a Crystal Clear release a year before this one was made. I will now be on a quest to locate a copy. What a deal to be able to A/B this early digital against DD!

While I've learned much about the nature of analog and digital technology, mysteries such as this one continue to amaze and delight. I have other early digital to analog recordings that do not satisfy, and later digital that equals vinyl, and it remains very difficult to determine any reason for some of these anamolies.

The research is certainly fun, though!

Dave

[Don Richard]

I love organ music. It shakes the walls and stirs the soul. Virgil Fox was a virtuoso musician.

[Mallette]

I must admit to being an E. Power Biggs partisan. OTOH, I saw Fox live with his Rogers touring organ and all 400 speakers and absolutely loved the show, and the bright red cape.

However, until hearing this Bach and Jongen performed with perfection PLUS real passion I did not place him quite to the level of E. Pluribus. Now, I see them as yin-yang perfection of all things organ. Biggs championing of tracker action, German organs was badly needly to return the instrument in this country from the rather Wurlitzer, schmaltzy direction it turned in the 20-50's, and Fox's championing of the finer parts of that movement such as Skinner string stops and such combine to put us right where we are. I believe the American built instruments of the last couple of decades have come to near perfection and pure American. It should be noted that the number of European organs being built by American builders has gone from 0 to beaucoups in this period.

That says a lot...

Dave

[Bill W.]

Now, the deal is that, according to the cover notes, this precise repertorire was recorded by Fox direct to disc on a Crystal Clear release a year before this one was made. I will now be on a quest to locate a copy. What a deal to be able to A/B this early digital against DD!

Dave,

The Crystal Clear release was actually a two - record series created from that recording session. I heard them both back in the day but was only able to purchase volume 2. Unfortunately, I played mine too many times. I have been looking for these for some time, if you happen to find copies GRAB THEM!!!

Bill

[Mallette]

Now, the deal is that, according to the cover notes, this precise repertorire was recorded by Fox direct to disc on a Crystal Clear release a year before this one was made. I will now be on a quest to locate a copy. What a deal to be able to A/B this early digital against DD!

Dave,

The Crystal Clear release was actually a two - record series created from that recording session. I heard them both back in the day but was only able to purchase volume 2. Unfortunately, I played mine too many times. I have been looking for these for some time, if you happen to find copies GRAB THEM!!!

Bill

I shall do so, then announce the fact...

Dave

[jtnfoley]

Amazon, of all places, has some provenance on the digital recording(s.)

http://www.amazon.com/Virgil-Performs-Franck-Dupre-Widor/dp/B000001VNE

[Mallette]

If those were "The Fox Touch, Vol. 1 & 2 Crystal Clear Direct to Disc" I just nabbed both volumes NM for 50.00 delivered. I'll let you know the results.. [H]

Not the same session. The Ultragroove disc is a 16/37.5 digital recording and a different session, same venue and material. I am GASPING at doing an A/B. [<)]

Dave

[jtnfoley]

A Googling I go...

Here's the mastering engineer on the Crystal Clear DD of 'The Fox Touch'

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=16&pagestring=Record+Mastering,+an+interview+with+Stan+Ricker+Part+3

[Bill W.]

If those were "The Fox Touch, Vol. 1 & 2 Crystal Clear Direct to Disc" I just nabbed both volumes NM for 50.00 delivered. I'll let you know the results..

Not the same session. The Ultragroove disc is a 16/37.5 digital recording and a different session, same venue and material. I am GASPING at doing an A/B.

Dave

Dave,

Those are them!!!

Bill

[Mallette]

A Googling I go...

Here's the mastering engineer on the Crystal Clear DD of 'The Fox Touch'

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=16&pagestring=Record+Mastering,+an+interview+with+Stan+Ricker+Part+3

Thanks...

"Dave: Okay. Here's one which Stan absolutely loves, Virgil Fox, The Fox Touch, Volume 1 on Crystal Clear, which was direct to disk, organ with all the stops pulled out.

Stan: Oh yeah, that was fun. That was two B&K microphones
hard-wired through a minimalist console that John Meyer had put
together. The microphones were B&K with special power supplies and
line driver amplifiers built by John. The console fed the 2 Neumann
lathes directly. Richard Simpson was there, too, with his VG-66/AM-32B
Neumann. That was a lot of fun to do. I wish we had that much challenge
nowadays, direct-to-disk recording. But that was then and this is now
and things are different."

I am filled with anticiPATION!

Dave

[MD1032]

"The Digital Fox" is the highest quality recording Virgil ever made. Enjoy!

This CD mentioned above is a copy of The Digital Fox, but it cuts off the beginning, which sucks.

http://www.amazon.com/Virgil-Performs-Franck-Dupre-Widor/dp/B000001VNE

My favorite bass test track is Gordon playing The Boellmann (try the Toccata, track 4!) at Ocean Grove on this CD:

http://www.amazon.com/Ocean-Grove/dp/B000028D4G/ref=pd_bbs_sr_5?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1215006960&sr=8-5

Another organ with four 32's, and he uses em. That Diaphone (which, mind you, is smaller scale than the originally installed one!) is the one making all the noise, the other three don't contribute nearly as much. It's even better in real life, trust me! Not even my favorite CD, but if you like bass, you will enjoy the opening and fourth tracks of that CD, trust me.

[Mallette]

Now I've located a copy of TDF, Vol. 1 for 13.00 delivered (NM condition).

What fun!

Dave

[Mallette]

I should have mentioned that one more copy of The Fox Touch is available at http://www.dccblowout.com/dept.asp?dept_id=14-009-001. While bargains are not all that common there, this site is a great place to find HTG LP's and such.

Dave

[artto]

two Bach's and a Jongen

Now, the deal is that, according to the cover notes, this precise repertorire was recorded by Fox direct to disc on a Crystal Clear release a year before this one was made. I will now be on a quest to locate a copy. What a deal to be able to A/B this early digital against DD!

Dave

Well, it looks like you're in luck Dave, but then maybe not. I believe I have the original LP on Crystal Clear Recordings that you're referring to. My copy reads "Virgil Fox ~ The Fox Touch, Volume One". It contains Bach Toccata, Adagio and Fugue (side one). Side two has Bach Toccata and Fugue in D monir and Jongen Toccata from the Symphonie Concertante. The late Bert White from Audio Magazine was the recording engineer, Stan Ricker (who else?)on mastering.

EDIT: Ah, I see you've aleady aquired a copy. That's pretty surprising actually. Good for you! Now I don't have to worry about sending mine out [Y]

[Mallette]

EDIT: Ah, I see you've aleady aquired a copy. That's pretty surprising actually. Good for you! Now I don't have to worry about sending mine out

Quote

My search skills are legendary...took about 5 minutes before they were located and procured!

I am so looking forward to this. I do not recall where or when I acquired the Ultragroove, and it has no wear at all. However, it is ticky and poppy from some damage or conditions and I was glad to get both the Crystals as well as what is described as an NM copy of the Ultragroove.

Dave

[Mallette]

The records arrived a day early. Mein Gott! Stan's mastering, Bert's engineering, Virgil's playing, Ruffati on steroids, and BACH! Add K'horns and if you don't wet your pants you've been dead for a week.

Even though Stan used plenty of space to maximize dynamic range and that range is the widest I've ever heard on an LP at a measured 60db, about a 10% (1.1) expansion on the DBX4BX made it perfect and completely eliminated the slight surface noise of these awesome works of art.

Bert's mike placement was such that, while, of course, the antiphonal organ was heard at the front, you could clearly tell that it was actually to the rear. Nice job of overcoming the 2 dimensional limits of stereo.

This Ruffatti is extraordinary and I fully understand why it was one of Virgil's favorites. Fratelli Ruffatti was certainly no American, but this instrument is. It is clearly of higher pressure than the traditional German instruments and speaks immediately and with force. In fact, at times (partially due to the Foxmeister's flamboyant performance style and stop choices) it would remind one of a theatre organ. 6,791 pipes, 108 stops, 5 manuals. I do not have a spectrum analyzer having (which I sometimes regret) sold my Crown on Ebay a few years back to acquire other stuff, I've little doubt that Bert and Stan captured the 4 32' stops to well below 32hz. My hair was standing on end. I am going to download and install TrueRTA soon so I can check it out.

As to Virgil's performance, I mentioned before I'd always been a Biggs partisan. I am equal now. In music there is no single truth. As my signature states "If it sounds good, it IS good." Biggs would have turned red and passed out at Virgil's use of the swell organ in the Bach pieces. And I am equally sure that Back would have LOVED it. I've gotten to where I almost never listen to the Toccatta and Fugue in D minor anymore as it is such a war horse and most performances are about the same. Virgil utterly owns this piece with a fiery passion, unique rythmic tricks, use of the swell, and many stops that the German school would totally eschew. It works, works, works. I'll listen to this war horse MANY times in the future.

The above pretty much can be used to describe the rest of the pieces on these discs. Most of the Fox records I have are his rather languid Traumeri, Clair de Lune, etc. pieces on the Riverside and similar instruments. Now I know what to look for and will be seeking out the REAL Fox.

Quibbles: As Jim Tidwell (jt1stcav) knows, I am not a big fan of close miked organs. According to the liner notes, Garden Grove Community Church has an RT of 2.5 seconds. That's a bit dry for my tastes. Nonetheless, they touted it as contributing to crisp notes and clean sound instead of the muddling of longer reverb times. Horse hockey, IMHO. Assuming the instrument is well coupled to the acoustics, it is the job of the organist to fully understand the nature of the return and play the building/instrument together effectively. Virgil does this in spades here. HOWEVER...there are times when his response to the coupling sounds too long. My enginears tell me the mikes were likely flown in front of the instrument thereby limiting the building return. This is also evidenced by the sound of the antiphonal organ, rather remote. This may sound self-aggrandizing, but I feel it is the engineers job to find the sweet spot where instrument and building couple perfectly. In this case, the RT is less than I really consider optimum, but Virgil's handling of it would pretty well eliminate noticing it at all except for the fact that the close miking has shortened it by almost a second, making it quite obvious.

Hardly a showstopper...but nothing is perfect except the PAW. I am going to spend many happy hours with these engineers and Virgil.

Dave

[boom3]

A late chime-in here...I received the CD version a few days ago..we passed out of the LP realm some time back, except for the ocassional transcription...This was our first Fox album. Dave has dissected the sonics better than I could. Yes, it is a rather dry recording but that's not bad. If you are using a good HT receiver with suitable DSP you can impose pretty much whatever sonics you want (for better or worse). I listened in 7 ch stereo mode that synthesizes the extra channels. We recently built a Rythmik sub and it performed well. I have often said that there are two generic sonic signatures: They Are Here and You Are There. The Digital Fox, to me, is very much, They (or he) Is Here, your room sonics (plus what ever DSP) predominate. There are too many organ albums I've heard that try to capture so much ambience that the result is a muddle. Sometimes I find myself wishing that there was a DSP setting to reduce reverb time of the source, not just add it.

[garymd]

The D2D copy of Vol. 2 I purchased from a local ebayer was delivered Thursday to my office and the condition is absolutely perfect. I paid a bit higher than market at $7.99 but no shipping made it a real bargain.

As stated, the LP is amazing. No doubt that bass goes down as low as the Khorns will allow. I can feel my concrete foundation rumble even at low volume. I haven't had the opportunity to give it some real juice yet but I'm looking forward to it.

Thanks again for the recommendation Dave! I love finding bargain vinyl!

[Mallette]

Timely posts. Just completed the A/B of the "Digital Fox" and "The Fox Touch." To recap for new readers of this thread, this is a unique situation. One of the earliest digital recordings (16/37.5) and a direct to disc Crystal Clear of the same material, in the same building, on the same organ, by the same performer done within a month of each other.

The listeners were the PAW, myself, and Doug and Terry Rountree, friends of some 30 years. Their systems (they have two) are one with Dynaco A-50's front and Dynaco A-25's in the rear with a DynaQuad, and the other is all Frazier with a DynaQuad. Pretty critical ears.

We did the Toccata and Fugue in D minor. I did not reveal which was which. I started with the Crystal Clear, then the Ultragroove, then just the first phrase again on each. I am not going to right an in-depth but just hit the high points.

Verdict: Split decision. Terry preferred the all analog, saying it had more complexity, layers, sort of like a complex French red wine. Doug preferred the digital suggesting it had more life, tickle, clearer. The PAW was evenly split with similar comments on both.

In my case, I feel the analog has a cleaner, tighter bass more evocative of being in the presence of large pipes that don't just rumble but have texture and color.

In all cases, they commented (in various ways) that the ambience was rather dry. I explained about how I knew that Virgil was "playing the building" and that, in spite of the greatness of the engineers involved, they obviously did not really understand that and miked only the instrument.

As is usual with work so good that it requires close listening and critique, it must be noted here that all agreed both these recordings are about as good as it gets.

A wonderful way to start the day! And besides that, I finished the new support for my turntables before breakfast...but that is another thread.

Dave

PS - I should add that the differences observed cannot readily be traced to either the digital or analog technology. For instance, the bass difference I commented on could easily be from microphones.

[jt1stcav]

I'm glad to see new discoveries to this wonderful recording![]

I was 15 when I bought The Fox Touch dual direct-to-disc albums back in '77, and even though I recorded them to cassette, I still played the hell outta them (they're a bit worn but still quite playable today). The jacket notes on both Chrystal Clear records mention these recordings as using a state-of-the-art direct-to-disc process and nothing else...it wasn't until '81 when I also bought The Digital Fox album (volume 1 only) and discovered these '77 recording sessions were historic in that they simultaneously used direct-to-disc, analog tape, and the newest digital tape technology (at 16-bit/37.5kHz), and was tauted as "the first digital tape recordings made in the United States" (I assume they meant the very first "commercial" digital recordings). The '81 album was released under the Ultragroove Records label and its selections used the digital tape masters.

In '84 I bought The Digital Fox (volumes 1 & 2) CD under the Bainbridge Records label...it too used the digital tape masters for its complete '77 selections (which at over 64 minutes fits both albums perfectly on disc). Sometime in the early '90s I also purchased the 1990 release of "Virgil Fox" on the Laserlight label; it also is cut from the original '77 session digital masters and sounds identicle to the Bainbridge CD. I know of no other releases from any other labels that use these same recordings from the Ruffatti organ at the old Garden Grove Community Church (which, BTW had been combined with a large '62 Aeolian-Skinner pipe organ from NYC's Avery Fisher Hall, totalling 320 ranks and installed in '80(?) in the new all-glass and steel Chrystal Cathedral...at least Virgil was able to play this magnificent enlarged instrument he helped design as a consultant for Ruffatti; he died months later of cancer).

And no quibbles here, Dave[]...regardless of miking techniques, the overall sound of that Ruffatti as a whole is spectacular IMHO, even if RT and the antiphonal is lessened to some degree (nothing's perfect). Recording is as much an art as it is a science, and many opinions on how its acurately done does allow for very interesting results...as long as the final recordings are as near perfect to the live event as humanly possible, then I'm fine with that.