JL Audio f113 or the thx ultra 2 sub woofer system

[Mark Casto]

Looks like everyone likes this sub. This is the Gloss Black. Is

2850.00 plus tax a good price. I am looking to buy the RF-83 Ssystem

and delete the rt-12d. My other option was to get the Klipsch Ultra 2

sub system the KA-1000-THX amp and 2 kw-120 thx subs. I been told the

jl 113 will be better than that set up. Come on audiophiles. Help me

out here.

[michael hurd]

I would take the THX Ultra II sub system over a JL F113 anyday of the week. The JL uses eq to get low and also has a sliding high pass filter, the louder you play it, the less low bass you get. About 105 db is where it starts to really go for a nose-dive.

In comparison, the THX Ultra II will deliver close to or above 120 db @ 20 hz in room ( depending on the size and layout, considering room gain, room modes, etc ) with a f3 lower than that. While doing that with low power compression. If your room is smaller I would go with a single RT12d.

[TheEAR]

The dual Klipsch THX combo beats a single JL f113 in output down deep. Compared one to one the JL beats one THX sub module. But the price of the JL is ~$2800 per sub.

The single ported 12(and port) in the Klipsch moves around the same volume of air the f113's driver. Even if the f113 dricer is capable of a much greater excursion. Sealed VS Ported....a sealed system is less efficient.

[Jay481985]

the fanthom is a nice novelty piece that is more prestige than substance. I would get the kw120

[TheEAR]

More prestige than substance.

Fact is the Fathom has the highest output per cubic inch,the reviewer(tester)even wrote this. This is not an opinion,it is a fact.

JL Audio prestige come from first quality high performance subwoofers.And not mumbo jumbo like I read here.

[Jay481985]

More prestige than substance.

Fact is the Fathom has the highest output per cubic inch,the reviewer(tester)even wrote this. This is not an opinion,it is a fact.

JL Audio prestige come from first quality high performance subwoofers.And not mumbo jumbo like I read here.

It probably also has the highest cost per cubic inch too.....

[DrWho]

Compared one to one the JL beats one THX sub module.

Nope.

[TheEAR]

YES

In the audible range the JL Audio has more output,down to 30Hz the JL even measured outdoors is a monster.Check the GP data and show me one Klipsch THX sub measured GP.

A NOPE does not cut it with me, DATA to back your NOPE.

Also the THX subs are also in the very compact cetegory and one can get much higher performance still for the same money ..or less.

Take ONE ...Maelstrom-X 18" (~$349) build a box (~$140 in meterials,even baltic birch)...add a Behringer EP2500/and the Behringer little box you even linked not long ago... Under $1000 you have a monster, displacement to best two THX subs with ease. [:#]

See you can still do a good deal better,if maximum performance per dollar is paramount.

[Macho Nacho]

Nah!

[TheEAR]

Macho Camacho you are correct NAH is the answer ! []

Viva la revolucion !!!

[DrWho]

A NOPE does not cut it with me, DATA to back your NOPE.

I believe the burden of data is on your shoulders since you're trying to make the outrageous claim.

But just for kicks...

The F113 is pushing over 10% distortion at 20Hz with only a 93dB GP drive level. Add 6dB for 1/8 space loading (it's usually more around 4dB) and you're looking at 99dB.

A single KW-120 will do less than 10% distortion at 104dB GP (extrapolating back from the THX spec). In 1/8 space, you're looking at 110dB for just a single unit. Since the distortion is nonlinear, you're probably looking at around 1% distortion from a single KW-120 driving at 99dB in 1/8 space.

Last May when I was measuring Indyklipschfan's HT, I was running sweeps at about 95dB. The distortion was sitting right around 0.3% THD. The F113 is over 1% (more like 5%) when running 90dB outdoors (which is ~96dB indoors). If anything, my measurement rig is going to introduce more distortion than Ilkka's measurement, which means a single KW-120 has at least 10dB less distortion all around at more normal listening levels.

And then in terms of power compression, the F113 is simply smoked so no need to go there.

In terms of frequency response, they pretty much are identical with 3dB down at 20Hz.

The biggest downside I've run across with the Ultra2 subwoofer system is that the KA-1000 amplifier is a difficult load for most receiver's sub preouts to drive. It's no fault of Klipsch since they designed it to the THX Ultra 2 specification, but not everyone is running Ultra 2 certified processors/receivers. The best way around this is to install a device with a better gain stage inbetween the receiver and the KA-1000...something like a Behringer EQ, or even a little mixer. Anyways, I can't help but wonder if less than positive reviews are because of this impedance mismatch. Even Indyklipschfan had this problem with his brand new Sunfire pre/pro...so it's not a matter of the quality of the upstream equipment.

For someone with crazy room problems, an EQ might be able to do more than even the most obnoxious of subwoofage. If you're looking for an automated approach, the RT-12d has the ARC system. It's really cool because it will work with daisy chained subs too (like if you go with two RT-12d's or even an RT-12d and any other subwoofer).

[TheEAR]

Made you work here...[]

Outrageous claim of... the f113 can hold its own down to 30hz,@ 20Hz the extra distortion is not a major issue.You will hear the room more than the distortion.

Yes the ported beats the sealed. This time [:'(]

[DrWho]

Above 30Hz?

The F113 can do 110dB above 30Hz before power compression sets in (so 116dB indoors) and is pushing over 15% distortion (it doesn't drop below 10% until 38Hz). A single KW-120 will do 118dB GP (124dB indoors) with under 10% distortion. It will probably be closer to 114dB GP with absolutely no power compression and less than 10% THD. So that's what, a good 3dB for the same distortion...or bringing it down to 110dB, you're probably looking at 5% THD, so 10% less distortion at 30Hz and above?

[]

[SWL]

I'm asking this question for myself........but it may also be helpful for the op.

How would you guys rank the SVS PB-12 Ultra/2 plus compared to the JL Audio, THX Ultra etc?

[TheEAR]

From where did you take that 118dG GP under 10% distortion numbers?

[Ricci]

I'm also wanting to know where you are getting these #'s from for the Ultra 2 bass system? I very seriously doubt that one of the bass modules will hit 118db outdoors at all, let alone with those distortion figures. An LMS 18 with 2 PR's in a bigger enclosure and at-least 2KW (more like 3KW with the 220v input line) barely hits those kind of #'s. I don't believe that your measurements are directly comparable with Illka's.

Also the CEA-2010 max clean output for the F113 was 101.3db at 20hz outside. It also mustered a solid 91.5db at 12.5hz.

BTW I'm no JL fanboy.

[TheEAR]

Ricci,

These numbers are hocus bogus. Well all know the 18" LMS-Ultra makes the little THX 12" driver look like a squaker midnrange in comparison. The amount of air the LMS-Ultra even the 15" moves is more than two of these 12's.

Lets see what numbers our good tester from Finland would get or...Craig Sub. I never trust company submited data(always to make them look better)no matter who it is.

I am ready to bet my sealed 15" LMS-Ultra matches the output down deep(16Hz) of one THX module, and beats it by a good margin 30Hz up.In a real world test. No way around a 38mm linear one way.

Fanboys hug one brand...I am a fanboy of no company,I own too many subs...there are very few people who have the number of DIY and commercial I have.So company hocus bogus numbers will never impress me.

[Jay481985]

The TC Sounds LMS5400 18 inch driver was pretty spot on in klippel tests done by another independant company that has no affiliations what so ever with tcsounds.

[Canadian_Dude]

I think drWho gets his numbers from the THX specification that the Ultra subs meet.

(extrapolating back from the THX spec)

[DrWho]

My memory could be shot, but I coulda sworn the Ultra2 spec was 130dB at 30Hz with under 10% distortion...which is what the Klipsch spec sheet is claiming for their Ultra2 system.

Subtract 6dB for a single KW-120 versus a double KW-120 and you're now at 124dB. Subtract another 6dB to go from 1/8 space to 1/2 space and now you're looking at 118dB GP with 10% distortion.

I know the Ultra2 spec is for a 3000 cubic foot room, so perhaps they're accounting for room gain too...which would be 12dB/octave starting at around 40Hz. That would give you around 3-6dB of room gain, which would lower that GP by 3-6dB....that's why I said it would probably be closer to 114dB with 10% distortion. Heck, just call it 112dB GP and you're still better off.

The LMS 5400 is around 5% distortion at 30Hz at 115dB GP, giving it a 6dB edge to the KW-120. The LMS would have even less distortion if everyone didn't insist on tuning it so retarded low.

As far as my measurement rig, it can only show that there is more distortion than there really is. In other words, any distortion measure I make is a worst case scenario. The only downside to the specific measurements I made is that they were taken in the room, which adds the variability of what the room gain is actually doing. Maybe I'll get the chance to ground plane the Ultra2 system and then I'll post the results. For what it's worth, I've ground planed the LMS-5400 and I've gotten extremely comparable results to Ilkka.