Big Towers vs. Smaller Towers

[t-man]

Seb,

you wrote: I was wondering, is there any drawback to using this as opposed to using the speaker-level filter

For what it's worth...That's exactly the way I found things to work the best in my situation. Can't hurt to try this.

T-man

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KG 5.5 (mains)

KG 2.2v (center)

KLF-C7 (center in storage)

KG 1 (rears)

KSW-12 (sub)

Denon AVR 681/1601

Toshiba SD-3109 DVD

Kenwood LVD700 LD

Sony CD changer

Sony 27" Trinitron

Sony PLX I

[boa12]

t-man, i don't think you're doing what seb is talkin about doin. you'd to have a seperate power amp like he has. maybe i'm confused, but by low level inputs, seb,

i'd guess your talking about the rca (line level) inputs/outputs (from your front preouts to sub & outta your sub from the rca line outputs to a power amp(?).

the low pass (crossover knob) on a sub doesn't effect what's passed on thru to the speakers. that's what's done by the high pass filter (usually fixed). as far as I know the crossover on the sub only affects where the sub itself is cut. fe, 40hz setting starts cutting the bass from the sub there sloping up. everything still passes thru the sub & whether either speaker or line level, then begins to get cut by the high pass at 80hz sloping on down, in the case of the pw2200.

if i remember t, u set sub:no (which mixes in & sends the LFE to fronts:large) & run your front preouts line level to the sub, BUT connect your front speakers to the denon front terminals. that way u bypass the high pass filter in the sub. & that's fine to do to also get around not having the adjustable digital low pass crossover point in your receiver's dsp.

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My Home Systems Page

This message has been edited by boa12 on 01-25-2002 at 07:52 PM

[Seb]

boa, if I understand you correctly, you mean that the xover knob only adjusts the low-pass, meaning what is sent to the sub, but that the high-pass is fixed, meaing whatever the setting for the xover, the mains will never get anything under 80Hz (well, not really because of the slope, but still)??

I doubt that. My guess is that the xover affects both the low- and high-pass filters, meaning if you set it at 50Hz, the speakers will get whatever's above that, and the sub will get whatever is below. again, i know there is a slope and the speakers will probably have to reproduce small amounts of 40 and 30Hz material, but that's not the point.

that's how I understood everything, but I might be wrong. anyone?

/edit/

oh, and boa, how do you like your Marantz receiver? how did it compre to other models you might have tried? I'm hesitating between Marantz and Denon at this point...

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'cuz not a lot of people have ever said

"Pump up the treble!"

This message has been edited by Seb on 01-25-2002 at 10:59 PM

[boa12]

seb, doubt me will ya. well w/ all the dif stuff & the rocket science involved

there days who knows. but a crossover on a sub is a low pass (meaning it lets the lows pass at the set point w/ a gradual phasing out the rate of which is determined by the slope as u go up in freq). high pass lets highs past at the point at that slope rate as u go down in freq.

just get a 4802, set it at 40hz & forget it

i choose the marantz sr8000 over the comparable denon 3300 caus i thought it sounded a bit warmer, smoother w/ the klipsch. but the denon dealers think marantz sound fuzzy. they do make good amps, at least in the 8000 & I thought the 6200 i heard sounded pretty smooth too.

may want to give them a listen. preferably a-b w/ klipsch. but marantz has not caught on at all w/ those

adjustable crossovers (now those are both high & low pass).

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My Home Systems Page

This message has been edited by boa12 on 01-26-2002 at 01:39 AM

[Seb]

boa, i'm still not sure whether I understand what you're saying, but my sub does not let the bass through, it does a complete xover, meaing it takes the bass away from the signal and only sends higher freqs to the speakers. at least that's true of the speaker-level inputs/ouputs, but since the low-level RCA ouputs are labled high-pass output, my guess is it's going to act the same.

the ONLY thing that bothers me about the 3802 vs. the 4802 is the xover, which isn't adjustable below 80Hz. what a shame! I'm certainly not going to pay several hundred dollars more just for this feature, though.

one thing I'm still wondering about is whether the 4802 will offer me amplification of similar quality to the POA5200... anyone?

[boa12]

seb, here are the pw specs http://www.paradigm.com/Website/SiteParadigmProduct/ParadigmModels/SubWoofers/PW_2200_Specs.htm

notice high pass crossover roll off specs. for speaker

level it's a lesser slope - 6db/octave. if the crossover control does what you're thinking it does, then it would be both a high pass & low pass control.

so that's a high pass and then they would have another high pass fixed at 80hz (not good). it probably just sounds like the sub cross control is adding more bass to your mains because as you turn it down to say 50hz the sub is less overwhelming on them.

you could get that outlaw icbm for just $250 to go between your pre & amp & give you what u kneed. i think that's more than worth it if u gonna have rf-7 for mains & a power amp for them.

jmo, sorry to hog this. that large vs small thing always draws me in because of that $&^@ fixed crossover

in the dsp (like i went thru w/ my marantz sr8000 - sounded great w/ all set small but still the 30s not as good as they could be (like now). direct mode for 5.1 on the marantz worked good usually, but was no good for

the 2-channel stuff).

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My Home Systems Page

[Seb]

thank you boa!

yes, it does seem that the low-pass is variable, but the high-pass is fixed at 80Hz, which IMO is pretty stupid.

why oh why can't hardware makers give us more flexibility?

what a waste, crossing RF-7s at 80Hz... i don't know if I can bear the thought of that.

[Deang]

Most subs have both the fixed high pass and the adjustable low pass.

Now I don't have any experience with receivers, but I would imagine the receiver is simply a low pass crossover, which if used - would necessitate you flipping the low pass on your sub to off or inactive. You should use one or the other but not both.

The fixed high pass at 80Hz is the most common because 80Hz is the THX standard. 6db/octave for the high pass is also fairly common. With a 6db/octave slope you will be -3db at 40Hz.

Where you set your low pass at this point is totally subjective based on room boundary effects and personal preferance. I always seem to think 50Hz sounds the best.

Now, another option is to not use the high pass at all, but simply run the RF7's full range for music - and only turn the sub on for HT. Just set the low pass on the sub as low as it will go. There will be a little overlap - but hey, it's movies and little extra rumble between 30 & 40 Hz ain't exactly something to get all worked up about.

The reason I make this suggestion is because many people (including me) believe running the whole signal through a crossover before going to your amp is less than ideal. In other words - there is certainly going to be some signal degradation.

Others argue that it's actually cleaner because since the woofer(s) of the mains are freed up from playing low bass - there is less IM and THD.

What I have actually found is that with monitors, using the high pass sounds better than not using it - but with full range speakers, it sounds better not using the high pass.

If you plan on listening to alot of multi-channel music - you will probably be better off using it.

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deanG

[boa12]

seb, yea my velo hgs does the same thing - high pass filter on pass thru though it's switchable between 80 or 100hz (big deal). again they too are catering to that thx size speaker crowd.

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My Home Systems Page

[boa12]

deang, in most cases, the fixed on the receiver dsp of usually 80hz is both a low pass for the sub preout & a high pass for speakers set:small. & in most cases as long as you set sub:yes, all lfe goes to the sub preout. denon does have an "lfe only" setting, but then your sub will not get any low bass on 2 channel material.

so that's the trilemma:

using the receiver sub preout which I think sounds best, if you set mains large & the sub's cross out, you can get a lot of overlap between the mains & sub (bad standing waves).

if you move the fronts to small, it eliminates the bad overlap, but you're not using big front towers to their full ability.

& if you set the sub's cross in to say 50hz you cut off the LFE channel.

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My Home Systems Page

[Seb]

deang,

"Others argue that it's actually cleaner because since the woofer(s) of the mains are freed up from playing low bass - there is less IM and THD."

exactly. isn't that the point of the xover in the first place? I mean, people are always looking for more bass, so if there was overlap between the sub and the speakers because you ran the speakers full-range, you just turn down the sub's volume a little bit and there ya go!

but freeing up the mains from the heavy bass duties reduces the load you put on the amp and the speakers as well, resulting in better sound, even with speakers designed to handle pretty low bass like the RF-7.

the other main reason is that if you run the mains full-range (LARGE), then you will be missing out on some really low bass info that is found in the main left and right channel. unless there was a way to send the low bass in the left/right channels to both the mains and the sub, which, from what I gather, is not possible in most if not all receivers.

am i missing something here?

another good point imo is the the slope of the xover doesn't seem too radical. using a 6dB/octave slope would still send a lot of 40Hz material to the speakers, no?

[Deang]

Boa - who says this isn't rocket science? Yeesh. Glad I'm just two channel.

Seb - yes, just about all the 40Hz stuff is still there.

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deanG

[T2K]

Don't sell the rear effects short.This ain't pro-logic.

I wouldn't worry about stressing the receiver/amp too much(relieving it of low bass)when using highly efficient speakers(read Klipsch).

Keith

[T2K]

"the other main reason is that if you run the mains full-range (LARGE), then you will be missing out on some really low bass info that is found in the main left and right channel. unless there was a way to send the low bass in the left/right channels to both the mains and the sub, which, from what I gather, is not possible in most if not all receivers"

Huh?

Read about bass management in Denon owner's manual.

Keith

[Seb]

keith,

I did. there is no indication of a way to send the deep bass in the two front channels to BOTH the mains and the sub, unless I'm mistaken.

maybe I didn't express myself clearly. I was arguing that if you set the mains to large, then you would not be using the sub for the deep bass found in the front channels, therefore missing out on some deep bass info because the mains can't reproduce it properly, even the RF-7.

[boa12]

seb, if u wire the rf speaker level thru the sub u set the sub:no & fronts:large of course. then u're getting

all low bass & lfe to the front terminals & using the sub's low pass cross control & the sub's fixed high pass filter to the rf-7.

if u use the denon sub preout (sub:yes), there is a setting called fronts+lfe that sends the low bass of the fronts:large to both the front speaks & the sub preout/sub. lfe only setting sends only lfe to the sub

(not also low bass from the fronts:large).

sorry in advance if this didn't help.

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My Home Systems Page

[t-man]

Seb,

If you want your towers to run full range, AND duplicate the low frequency bass from the front L and R into the sub, there is really only one way to be absoulutely sure:

Tell your denon you have NO sub, and run the sub parallel with the mains. You can do this via speaker wire or main RCA pre-out. Works for me. I use speaker wire connection, as it's much cheaper.

Yes, it would be nice if the low pass control on your sub could also simultaneously adjusts the high pass. One would think this couldn't be too hard, since the Outlaw that Boa is referring to essentially does this. STUPID!!!

Oh well, once my SVS CS+ arrives, I won't have much choice. It will be sub out via RCA cable or nothing, since it is a passive sub needing an external amp. I'm stuck at 80 hz high/low pass with my KG5.5s.

T-man

[boa12]

Or yea as t-man does - run the sub & rf-7 in parallel & thereby eliminate the high pass in sub & just use the sub low pass control. then any lfe u cut w/ the low pass in the sub is also going full bore into the rf-7 (hopefully not overloading them).

w/ a good adjustable high & low cross in a dsp, all these dif manuevers would be unnecessary.

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My Home Systems Page

[Seb]

boa,

that front+lfe setting is most interesting... does it mean that the bass from the front two channels is sent to both the fronts AND sub, or does it mean that the LFE signal is sent to both the front and sub?

because if it's the former, then that's exactly what i'm looking for. didn't find any mention of it in the Denon manual though...

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'cuz not a lot of people have ever said

"Pump up the treble!"

[boa12]

seb, pretty much. it means that low bass cut at 80hz by the dsp high pass from the fronts:large is sent both to the fronts & sub preout. & all LFE goes only to the sub preout.

kinda confusin because it's titled from the sub perspective. "LFE only" means the sub preout gets only LFE (not low bass from fronts). Fronts+LFE means the sub preout gets the low bass as described above & all the LFE (LFE never goes to fronts unless you set sub:no).

at least that's how I understand it from my extensive research on the various denon.

trouble is when u use that front+lfe setting w/ big front speaks like rf-7 or klf-30, u get a lotta overlap w/ the sub crossover set out/off. when u switch in the sub's crossover u cut lfe which is still all going only

to the sub preout/sub.

now i've gone completely full circle at least once.

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My Home Systems Page

This message has been edited by boa12 on 01-26-2002 at 04:46 PM