Let Your Ears be Your Guide

[fenderbender]

This will start a riot, but the whole tube vs SS and vinyl vs CD is a bunch of BS.  Good equipment that is properly matched sounds good, regardless of SS or tube.  Good recordings that are properly mastered sound good, regardless of format. 

My completely SS system, that is high powered (gasp!!), sounds warmer than my friends all tube ststem.  I have bad sounding records and bad sounding CD's.  I  also have very good CD's and records.  I'll take a well recroded CD over a recod any day because it will stay that way and is super convienent. 

As far at TT's.  I had a VPI Scout, Dynavector 20x cart and VPI 16.5 cleaning machine with the magic solution as I dove into vinyl.  I didn't use it much and sold the entire package.  I later decided to try again and bought a Technics SL1210 MK2, Sumiko headshell and Denon 160 cart (all of which cost less than the Dynavector cart's list price) and am now very happy.  Super easy to use and great sound. 

If you want to go very cheap, a friend heard my Technics and bought an SL1300 (kind of a home version of the 1200 but semi auto).  They are about $100 to $150.  I also used to have a Denon DP31 fully auto table.  Those are about $100 on ebay.  They all have very similar tonearms.  I'd use the Denon 160 cart on each.  Add the Sumiko headshell for a little extra weight up front. 

Low buck way to get in and enjoy.  Also super easy to use, plus the price of entry is so low that you will not feel bad if you don't use it all of the time. 

Ah TigerWK....a man after my own heart! You are 100%....good is good regardless of format, cost, etc. I have a lot of CD's that sound beter than the original vinyl (producers cut corners back then also)....I collect and listen to the vinyl when it isn't available in other formats....

CB here is a link to Esoteric Sound

http://www.esotericsound.com/index.htm

if you go to the used section he has a Tech SL 1300 for $85 !!

I also here that his Rekocut TT for $299 with cart is very good also........All his products are top notch!

[Hifi jim]

Good equipment that is properly matched sounds good, regardless of SS or tube.  Good recordings that are properly mastered sound good, regardless of format.

I agree. I also agree with tigerwoodKhorns in that you needn't spend a fortune on a turntable. I think most of the Japanese made direct drive tables are hard to beat. I'd suggest something with auto return as I'm lazy and hate baby sitting my records. Pioneer makes some fine tables and I was lucky enough to find mine on eBay for $50 shipped. A decent cartridge such as a Shure M97xe can be found for as little as $65 and I doubt you'd want for more. I'm sure the NAD is not up to par with the McIntosh CD player, but it's still a fine player. I think the AR preamp is perhaps a bit too transparent for the other associated gear in this case. For me, I'd go back to the Mac preamp as they match well with their power amps. Fenderbender is right in that some people find the Mac sound too warm, but not me I think Mac+Klipsch=Good sound. Try the McIntosh preamp again and if you enjoy the sound, move on to your next adventure, be it vinyl or whatever. And the Mac does have a really sweet phono stage... Just my .02

[russ69]

Fenderbender,

Cables are significant, that's why they make them. On my systems, I can go from hyper detailed and dry (using a Kimber KAG or Silver Streak), to warm and smoother (Cardis 300). The only change being one interconnect cable. Cigarbum said his system was harsh and a cable change is a cheap $150 fix for that (assuming he's using mass consumer type cabling now). I don't have any 3000 dollar cables but I keep a good selection of value priced cables on hand to help "tune-up" any system change. I don't care about the group that says cables don't make any difference, they just don't have any experience using them. You don't need golden ears, the example above is a night and day difference.

Thanx, Russ

[Hifi jim]

Russ, I am also a cable believer. However, I feel it most important to get the synergy of the system first before experimenting with cables. I've used cables in the past as a Band-Aid to patch problems in some systems. But good component synergy, I feel, is the most important thing to get right first. After that, cables can be an important part that also require some experimentation to find the right match. At this time, it seems that Cigarbum is still trying to find that magic that comes from trying out different components until his ears have that epiphany... Ah! Thats it! Adding cables into the mix this early can often be a bit frustrating, at least for me.

[russ69]

Jim,

I agree, synergy first.

Thanx, Russ

P.S. Thinking further, I don't think the Cornwalls, Mac 2105 and SP3 is much of a mis-match. I can guess it might be a tad dry unless the SP3 is warmed up a little. You could do that at the source, change the pre, or try a cable. Audio Advisor will take the cable back if you don't like it, so it's something you could try and just loose 7 bucks shipping if it doesn't work. Just a thought.

[fenderbender]

Fenderbender,

Cables are significant, that's why they make them. On my systems, I can go from hyper detailed and dry (using a Kimber KAG or Silver Streak), to warm and smoother (Cardis 300). The only change being one interconnect cable.  Cigarbum said his system was harsh and a cable change is a cheap $150 fix for that (assuming he's using mass consumer type cabling now). I don't have any 3000 dollar cables but I keep a good selection of value priced cables on hand to help "tune-up" any system change. I don't care about the group that says cables don't make any difference, they just don't have any experience using them. You don't need golden ears, the example above is a night and day difference.

Thanx, Russ

 

Like i said ....I certainly won't debate what you hear, and what sounds good or bad to you....I'm no engineer but have taken my share of Physics courses in My school days.

To me electrons are electrons.... electric fields that induce a current are just that, electric fields. I just don't see any quantifiable way to determine how two conductors of the same capacitance could have an effect on the "coloration" of the signal flow unless a load was introduced in the path. Tubes , capacitors, etc. will "color" by either adding or removing from the signal flow. I know of no way that Wire can do this, or any instrument other than the human ear/brain interface that can measure the mentioned phenomenon.

[CIGARBUM]

You guys are just giving too much information for my poor old demented brain to process. I do tend to agree with twKhorns and there is a lot of good and bad in both types for media (vinyl and cds) I will just have to put a little more effort into selecting the good CDs. If, I go to vinyl, got any good suggestions for a turntable and cart so that I may experience this wonderful sound. From what I have seen I could get what I need for $300-$400, it would be worth that to hear the difference. SUGGESTIONS PLEASE.

Now to try get my system sounding a little better: 1. listen a little longer with existing. 2. Replace the AR with the MX113, and listen some more. I really did hate putting that AR with the McIntosh, that stuff is just so nice. While on the subject, if I was to replace the MX113 with another McIntosh, do you think a C28 would do any better??

I do love the Cornwall's, just a real sweet sound.

Well, what do you think guys.

[fenderbender]

CB

The MX113 and the C-28 are very close in design and I doubt that you would hear much difference if any at all.......I believe Roger Russell was the designer of that era pre-amp and the mx line up was a marketing tool to stuff a tuner into the preamp.

May be out of your budget but Juicy Music Line stages are incredible !!! Their Blueberry preamp also has one of the best phono stages around and would make a great combo with any Mcintosh poweramp .

May want to consider selling the Mx 113???? to offset the cost...

If I were in your shoes I'd hold off a bit on the vinyl (since you don't own any yet) and wok on getting the synergy and sound out of what you already have....then once your happy, go ahead and give vinyl a spin, that way , much less variables to deal with.

[russ69]

Fenderbender,

I AM an engineer but I use my ears as the sole criteria for sound system evaluation. Measurements are fine and useful but I'm not even sure we are measuring the right parameters for the finer details in home audio. If we were, I would have tossed my tube amps out the window years ago! I had trouble with "wires" having a sonic effect also, but experience has shown otherwise. On the technical side, capacitance and amp performance are related and capacitance is frequency dependant, so it's difficult to say cables have the same capacitance, because that is only true at certain frequencies but not across the full band. I'm getting out of my area now (I'm a mechanical engineer in a Electromagnetics Lab) so I'll stop before I embarrass myself.

Thanx, Russ

[fenderbender]

Russ,

It's cool.....I'm sure that there is a difference, otherwise nobody would buy them,and there is a big market for them, as you have previously stated. I know just enough to embarrass myself [] and be dangerous if I ever started to fiddle with something.

I should have been more clear that To my ears....I have a very hard time differentiating differences in cables ....All I can tell is that if a Cable is reliable and works or it doesn't. from what Little i know about the subject I Can't find an explanation. So That leads me to be pessimistic .

Sorry if I came off too "Con" on the subject, Heck some people can't tell the difference between Foie Gras and Chopped Liver. Guess I'm a Chopped liver kind of guy...

[CIGARBUM]

Well after dinking with the downstairs system all day, I'm happy. I put the McIntosh MX113 back in and WHAT A DIFFERENCE. It sounds like the upstairs system, a nice warm detailed sound, I like it. Don't ask me why I even got the Audio Research LS3, just cause I guess.

Everyone was a great help,thanks.

Will keep my eye out for a turntable,just for the experience, still would like some recommendations. Thanks again.

[Hifi jim]

Well after dinking with the downstairs system all day, I'm happy.  I put the McIntosh MX113 back in and WHAT A DIFFERENCE.  It sounds like the upstairs system, a nice warm detailed sound, I like it.  Don't ask me why I even got the Audio Research LS3, just cause I guess.

Everyone was a great help,thanks.

Will keep my eye out for a turntable,just for the experience, still would like some recommendations.  Thanks again.

Cigarbum, glad to hear your happy with the sound now, as I stated earlier I think Macs sound is top notch. I personally like Pioneer direct drive tables from the seventies, and early eighties. Technics and Denon are both excellent choices too. Some people will debate about belt vs direct drive, but the best models were almost always direct drive back then. Auto return is a nice feature and the Pioneer PL-530 is a beauty of a TT that is very hard to beat. The Technics 1200 is a super TT too and a common find on craigslist. Lots of turntables on craigslist and a good way to buy so as to avoid shipping which is often problematic with TT's. And as far as cartridge choice, it is very tough to beat a Shure M97xe, it sounds great on most arms and works well with most phono stages. Plus it comes with a very helpful setup guide, and the necessary tools and hardware.

[fenderbender]

^^^ [Y][Y][Y] Technics sl1200 w/ shure cart

[Don Richard]

This will start a riot, but the whole tube vs SS and vinyl vs CD is a bunch of BS. Good equipment that is properly matched sounds good, regardless of SS or tube. Good recordings that are properly mastered sound good, regardless of format.

[Y]

If your preamp does not have tone controls you could add a graphic EQ to your system. DBX has 15 band per channel and 31 band per channel EQs available for $200 or less. Some folks around here don't like any form of tone control at all but I find that a properly set up and adjusted EQ can improve the sound of nearly any sound reproduction system. In fact, it is difficult to find a professional sound system, or a recording board, that doesn't have EQ. Adding cables that adjust frequency response in a random, uncontrollable way is just plain silly.

[CIGARBUM]

Sounds logical, but have had no experience.

Thanks

[tigerwoodKhorns]

This will start a riot, but the whole tube vs SS and vinyl vs CD is a bunch of BS. Good equipment that is properly matched sounds good, regardless of SS or tube. Good recordings that are properly mastered sound good, regardless of format.

If your preamp does not have tone controls you could add a graphic EQ to your system. DBX has 15 band per channel and 31 band per channel EQs available for $200 or less. Some folks around here don't like any form of tone control at all but I find that a properly set up and adjusted EQ can improve the sound of nearly any sound reproduction system. In fact, it is difficult to find a professional sound system, or a recording board, that doesn't have EQ. Adding cables that adjust frequency response in a random, uncontrollable way is just plain silly.

I agree for the most part. If you knwo how to use and EQ you can make a difference. Using a auto eq and pink noise to get started is a good idea. Make sure you know what an "X-curve" is (roll off the top end and boost bass at a certain rate).

However, cables can make differences in resolution that an EQ cannot. That being said, I make my own interconnects out of Mogami Quad mic cable because I do not want to keep rolling the dice until I get it right.

[Don Richard]

However, cables can make differences in resolution that an EQ cannot. That being said, I make my own interconnects out of Mogami Quad mic cable because I do not want to keep rolling the dice until I get it right.

Quad cable has higher capacitance than standard mic cable. In sound reinforcement use quad cables are mostly used for short run mic cables to a stage box. Probably OK for short runs on home equipment. Coax is generally low capacitance and is good for single-ended cables. DIY is the way to go for cables if one has soldering skills. Exact length is good for neatness.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Don,

What constitutes a short run?

[Don Richard]

For 3000 ohm input impedance mixers, 20-25 ft. For 150K ohm tube hi-fi gear about 3 ft. It depends on how much HF rolloff you can stand.

[Cornwalled]

Funny story about lp hunting....found a craigslist add for $1-$3 LP's........drove 20 min. and picked out about 25 VG+ to minty jazz lp's....the guy proceeds to log on to ebay and check out the prices + shipping of each album.....I stopped him about 1 minute in and offered him $75 for the lot and he said he wanted about $20 apiece since most were going for $10-$15 plus $9.95 shipping.I asked him about the price on CL ??? WTF

What (as the french say) Chutzpah!!! I left with my $75 bucks!

Man that's terrible. What a waste of humanity. I'm pretty sure right after he asked for $20 I would have punched him. Seriously.

-Jon