Why doesn't anyone add a Klipsch Cinema Subwoofer?

[Kain]

Has anyone tried using a Klipsch KPT-684 subwoofer in their Home Theater? It is a THX-Approved and as two 18-inch drivers! For all those who crave deep and pounding bass, how come no one tried one of these yet?

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Home Theater:

Display: Sony VPL-VW11HT 16:9 LCD Projector

Receiver: Denon AVC-A11SR (European version of Denon AVR-4802)

DVD Player: Sony DVP-NS900 (European version)

Center: Klipsch RC-7

Mains: Klipsch RF-7s

Surrounds: Klipsch RS-7s

Subwoofer: SVS CS-Ultra w/Samson S1000 amplifier

[APPLEBITE]

It's an interesting idea, but I'm sure there is a good reason for not using one in a home theater application. Of course I don't know what the reason is.

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JVC 36" tv

Technics DA-10 Reciever

Klipsch KSW-10 sub

Klipsch RC-3 II Center

Klipsch RB-3 Surounds

Nuance Fronts

Hitachi DV-P415U dvd player

[mike stehr]

Another reason might be the $1970 Price.

It's 190 lbs, and goes down to 35Hz.

Which might not be low enough for most (HOME) theatre applications.

If your shootin' for 15,20Hz.

You could use a active crossover, as long as the center frequency isn't below 35Hz.

I don't know about home theater, but it would seem like a great sub for music.

105Db sensitivity, you will know they are there.

[kenratboy]

There would be nothing wrong with it. I bought a JBL 4648A-8 sub (dual 15s) and it ROCKS! The only reason I got it was I, and 225 people were lucky enough to get one from JBL for $220 (yes, $220, NO CATCH AT ALL.) I am sitting at my computer right now and making deep electronic bass in FruityLoops (music making software) and I am literally being lifted off of my chair, my ears are ringing a little, and my file cabinet is vibrating horribly, and, I might add, that the volume control on my 180 watt sub amp is only 1/4th of the way up. So, dual 18s? Sounds good to me. Professional stuff is rated as conservative as you can get, my sub is only rated to go down to 45Hz, but in real life, its going down below 25Hz, with enough power to make you poo your pants even in the biggest of home theaters/listening rooms. Remember guys, this is for a MOVIE THEATER, next time you go (if you ever go again:-), think of how many of your listening rooms would fit inside of a movie theater. Also, look at the sensitivity of the subs, they will kill you if you put more than 50 or 100 watts into them, and they can take thousands. Another thing, the drivers are horribly expensive and they sound great, so dont think it needs to be pretty to sound good. Youre not paying a penny for real wood veneers or copper-colored cones, just performance. So, I would like to see a well-respected member of this forum test out one of them and pass the data on to you.

I would NEVER EVER turn the volume control up all of the way (only 180 watts); it would seriously hurt my ears, no joke there.

[HornEd]

KAiN64, there are a lot of reasons why putting commercial subs in a confined space are a bad idea... even as to performance. Your an SVS customer, why not email TV, the "Sub-Human", with your question to get a honest and comprehensive response? HornEd

[TBrennan]

HornEd---Name some. I'm using dual 4648s in my basement in a 2-boundary situation and reading flat at 25hz, the lowest reading on my RTA. That's a total of 4 15" drivers that you can't even see moving at high levels, 106db efficiency and 2400 watts power handling, no strain at all when hitting 110db with 2 watts. Sound is totally effortless and distortion free. Tell me what I'm doing wrong Ed. I laugh at small cone-area, long-stroking home subs, they're like toys compared to JBL Pro, McCauley, Klipsch Pro, EV and Servo-Drive. Hell Ed, good horns are based on motion picture theater sound in the first place. If it fits in the house use it.

This message has been edited by TBrennan on 02-02-2002 at 03:21 PM

[mike stehr]

It's a good thing you have a basement.

I think that's about as close to REAL theater as it gets.

It makes me wonder why in the hell I bought them SVS tubes in the first place.

I don't do much HT anyway, and my Chorus II's have pretty decent bass for music.

Oh well.

[TBrennan]

Mike--It's all about low distortion and effortless sound. With low bass if you don't have room for a 25hz horn the next best thing is lots of big-area cones in big boxes. I don't even play the rig that loud very often but the superb clarity and dynamics are in effect at any volume. Plus the stuff just looks cool. :-)

[kenratboy]

I agree with Tom, the subs just look impressive and imposing. A good analogy would be walking into your listening room, and seeing a Kodiak Grizzly bear standing there, ready to maul you and eat your warm, juicy guts. I had a friend come over (he has a Sony Dream System all-in-one package and a 20 TV, so he hasnt seen the real stuff) and when he walked in and saw the sub, he stopped dead in his tracks, no joke. He didnt know what the hell to think. All I can say is that a Sunfire (no offence to Sunfire owners, I love them) is for movie stars and people who have to live in a 1,200 sq. ft. apartment in New York, but a TRUE audio enthusiast will put up with the trouble of a 150 lb. black box just for sound.

[TVodhanel]

The main issue with the commercial boxes are they aren't designed to extend very low, they are often fairly expensive, and they are relatively large ugly spuds.(meant for a commercial application where no one can see them.)

They don't require a lot of power to play very loudly >30hz though...so if that's your bag they can be a good option.

TV

[mike stehr]

Then my 16/46 Carpeted tubes should be just fine in a Trailerhouse.

Had a amp in mind for the subs, but I guess I got my income tax in September from Bush.

Well nonetheless, I plan on getting a amplifier for the SVS's and have a active crossover kit so I can roll them of below the Chorus II's.

But I am enjoying the Chorus's just by themselves.

THANX!

[kenratboy]

Even though I own a commercial sub, I have to agree with TVodhanel. They are NOT home subs, by that I mean there is better for the house for the money. The ONLY reason I got my sub is the fact that it was $220, instead of $1,400. So, I really couldn't imagine getting a pro dual 18"er instead of a 18" Velodyne or equivalent.

Remember boys and girls, it's only a game...

[mike stehr]

Good to see you got the woofer problem corrected.

That is a screamin' deal, you gotta admit it.

Now you can roust up some more JBL tent sale goodies and build a pair of two-ways to go with the subs.

Or another sub cab for each two-way.

I think Tom mentioned a two-way speaker on the tent sale site.

It seemed like a screamin' deal as well.

Then you could really Piss off the neighbors!

(How long will this tent sale last anyway?)

THANX!

[HornEd]

Tom, your photo is awe inspiring... and it looks like you have the knowledge to put it together right... a luxury not all folks have.

I like organ music and other deep bass experiences, my two 12" subs go below 20Hz and surpass the 121.5 Dolby Digital Theater Minimum... they are the most musical in home subs I have heard... and nobody who has heard my rig has thought of the two 39" x 16" tubes as toys or accused them of being wimpy.

Hey, Tom, I am a maverick... and from the looks of your photo... so are you. Your basement looks like the test room my son and I put together years ago... right down to the axe! Being no stranger to building 60+ seat theaters in showrooms... I am no stranger to big cones or big horns.

With an array of 12 12" woofers and six exponential horns plus two extremely well designed 12" subwoofers with 97oz. strontium magnets on each one, I have a system that was designed for my 94 year-old mother... that can still shake walls at will.

My comments were slanted toward KAiN64's situation and not yours... and that's the context of the "bad idea" comment. I haven't the slightest problem with what you have built for your "ear enjoyment"... especially since it brings back so many happy memories.

When I lived in France in a very old stone building in downtown Orleans, I discovered several hollow spaces along a stone wall that had been wallpapered over. I took a razor blade and slit along the edges of the hollow sound. It turns out that there was some very thick wood cupboard doors and an enormous amount of stone-lined space behind them. There was a three shelf open area with shelves... which I converted to an equipment rack. I cut holes in the doors and used commercial 15 inch woofers with an enormous horn array in the center. I had removed the wallpaper from the doors and made thousands and thousands of pin holes in it. So when the speakers were sealed into the wall, everything was flush... and I put the wallpaper back on.

Needless to say, the joint really rocked... and guests were blown away with all that sound without any apparent speakers... and that was almost 40 years ago... I can't remember all the components... but I can't forget the sound. I think you would have liked it.

I always enjoy a thought provoking TBrennan post... even if it's a roast post and I'm on the spit. Well done or at least I think I am. HornEd

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"arrhythmias Klipsch Legends Cavort Discretely Six Ways!"

FOREGROUND SOUND STAGE:

KLF 30's: Left Main, Center Main, Right Main

SB-2's: L & R Front Effects on 5' sand filled columns

BACKGROUND SOUND STAGE:

KLF 30's: Left Surround, Rear Effects, Right Surround

LARGE MOUTH BASS:

Twin SVS CS-Ultra subs, Samson Megawatt Amp

KLIPSCH SPEAKER SUPPORT SYSTEMS:

Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65", Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver

Toshiba Pro Scan 6200, Toshiba Pro 6-head SVHS W808

and such... Tweakin' On!

Music Respite System: vintage Cornwall with SVS16-46CS+

Klipsched Class "A" Motorhome: On the road testing...

[TheEAR]

Talk about using Pro subs in a home,I tried the Cerwin Vega T36/750 bass bin in my small HT room lest year.

The result was heart restarting bass down to 30Hz,below this the monster dB sub was much weaker.

30Hz and above this T36/750 bass bin mops the floor with even two or three...or more Ultras in output.I used the trusty Carver TFM75 to power it,no lack in juice.

If all you look for its massive OUTPUT the Pro bass bins may do.And these are HUGE and dont help any decor.

I dont need to tell you its not practical unless your hearing is almost gone and you must do demolition work using your sound system.

I'll stick to my smaller home subs,even a Sunfire Signature can provide more output then any sane person would need.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[TBrennan]

HornEd---My intention with the 4648s was not for sub use but to augment the weak bass of my Altec A5 cabinets below 100hz, when the 4648s came up for only $220 each I figured thay'd be perfect in that role. They are woofer boxes for behind-screen motion picture theater use and not theater subs. But I figured that with their 45hz f3 in a 1 boundary situation they might go a little lower in a room and in a 2 boundary situation. Things worked out even better than I expected, I was hearing some very low bass and was delighted to see 25hz flat when I hooked-up my RTA. The 6db boost at 30hz of the plateamp I'm using is helping too. Now one should be wary of EQing vented boxes below F3 but 6db is a mild boost and the 4 15s are under so little stress and fed so little power that there are no bad effects. This dual 4648 rig has better performance down to 25hz (in my room) than any of the home subs tested by the HT magazine refered to in another thread on this forum (in his room). What's happening below 25 I don't know but flat to 25 with the ability to hit over 120db at that freqency is formidable performance.This leaves me LOTS of dynamic headroom as I rarely listen over 90db anymore. As a single guy (widower) with the kids on their own or away at school I don't have to figure in domestic tranquility and can choose gear strictly on my ideas of performance no matter how big or ugly.

[HornEd]

Tom, we are in similar situations on the home front. Your doing what I used to enjoy doing... and need to do again. I've been retired for about ten years and need to get into something to get me excited about living again.

I am pleasantly surprised at what you have been able to make those 4648's do. I spent $2,700 to get bass that would beat those numbers. My father had a stroke over five years ago and have been taking care of my nonagenarian parents since then. My dad died at home from an undiagnosed cancer two years ago (he had been given two weeks to live when I got here)... and mother (who was given two months to live) is stronger than she has been for 30 years. She is an inspiration, doing a mile and a half mall walk twice a week.

Actually I built the present system to increase her stimulation and quality of life. She has dementia and can't remember very well, so I buy DVD's and show her the ones she likes over and over. But she's happy and that's what counts.

Thanks for sharing. Now back to the grind... HornEd

[Seb]

HornEd, I think I speak for everybody here when I say I'm in awe of your dedication, nay, devotion ot your loved ones. You are an inspiration to us all.

[kenratboy]

Nice work HornEd, people like you make me realize that there are still good, honest people in the world. Keep it up! You set a good example for others. What are the most popular DVD's?

[HornEd]

Seb and Kenratboy, thanks for the positive thoughts, this Board can sure use 'em! But, frankly, I get ample reward each happy day that mother enjoys life. I'm not the kind of guy that's looking to bribe a supreme being with good works... I'm a maverick that does what seems to be the best way for the mongrelized folks of this world to chill out and move up to the next level.

Kenratboy, allow me preface to preface my answer with a couple of facts. Years ago I specialized in a niche of psychology that involved environmental structuring (milieu therapy) in the U.S. Army Medical Corps. A therapeutic concept originated by Pavlov (of salivating dog fame ). Briefly put, since humans tend to react to their environment, then a careful, calculated addition to their environment could produce a change within the targeted mind to a therapeutic end. Add this to the concept that we all must fabricate our own reality in that small space inside our skull that receives sensory impressions from the outside world. Thus, in the end all the perceptions of deep bass subs or off base comments have to be filtered through imperfect senses to be made sense of within. So, it is no wonder that differences of opinion are so common.

So, that being said, mother's all time favorite is the "Sound of Music." She is the daughter of pre 1800 German immigrants who left in disagreement with Kaiser Wilhelm's unification scheme. Nazi methods unsettled her German pride just as her husband's (my father) self-centered autocratic ways kept her troubled about "doing the right thing... and what was the right thing" in sixty years of marriage. I am not a "momma's boy" but I do think this lady deserves some quality time in her life... and the reversal of her chronically depressed psychiatric profile to one without a trace of depression gives me a professionally certified ratification that the system is working!

I have literally bought and discarded dozens of speakers in the quest of a combination that would enhance mother's comprehension of the positive aspects in the world around her. The toughest task was getting something to really work for mother in the lower frequencies... and commercial subs that I tried did not deliver the velvet hammer of realism required for this application. Of course, to recognize positive aspects one must have a negative reference point to appreciate the difference. Supplying the negatives in a story that gets resolved in a positive way (particularly when you explain the movie as it goes along from a positive slant) imbues the target mind with healthy hope of peaceful transition. I have found that the more "live" and "authentic" the sound environment, the better the message is received... and the stronger positive neural pathways seem to build. After renting over 300 movies in 2000 and buying 150 more, that the Klipsch ability to deliver meaningful sound has been a big part of her improvement over the past year or so. I don't think she has been happier in her 94+ years.

Mother's favorite DVD's are ones that appear more real (she doesn't care for animations), resolve conflicts (she was seldom allowed to voice her individual opinion in her life), and in which the focal character "does the right thing" no matter what his end. Thus, "Braveheart", "Saving Private Ryan", and even the further out "Star Wars" are welcome.

Although a very "proper" church going lady with a wayward politician husband, mother does pretty well in handling the sexy side of today's movie fare. She has a little tougher time with foul language... she just doesn't see where the "F" word seems to fit logically in the places that it is applied.

Thus, a good movie shown on a high quality monitor with a sound system that promotes dynamic realism goes a long way to have made mother into a happy person. In this case, her lack of memory precision helps, because the good movies that reinforce her internal progress can be played over and over (at intervals) so that the beneficial concepts within help her to the next happy plateau of challenge.

So, instead of her mind "shutting down" in a well intended nursing home, the movies, the sound and 'round the clock support has opened her life to new daily adventures. It is really a wonderful sight to see... I am privileged.

Unfortunately, the lack of sleep and self care precipitated another round of health problems for me. So mother is taking an extended vacation with my son in Texas (who grew up learning these techniques and seeing them work in business)... while I try to put my abused body back in a shape that can support the wonderful world of thinking inside my brain case for just a bit longer. This sound system's too damn good to quit now!

Be well... enjoy... and make the world a better place even if it doesn't seem to deserve it. HornEd

This message has been edited by HornEd on 02-04-2002 at 11:57 AM