RSW15 versus Epik Conquest versus SVS PB ultra

[laager]

But, yes, if he added a 20Hz data point like craigsub did/does, things would change significantly.

I'm confused: http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/C2.pdf

[laager]

I expect that the Epik would be outstanding on HT material. Just incredible.

However, despite all subjective reports I do not see how such a heavy assembly could possibly be 'better' in a single cone configuration on music than a single cone sub with an accelerometer on the voice coil (read: Velodyne DD or HGS). The monitoring and cone control employed by that 'servo' circuit is what results in such low distortion (and thus high accuracy) that is a hallmark of the premier Velodyne models. It beggars belief that higher distortion could be 'better'.

Hence, if the Epik can be considered 'better' on music in a subjective test (Craigsub) either that particular ear finds the distortion 'pleasing' or there are other factors at play influencing the result (such as raw output, room dynamics or even port resonances).

The core of what I am saying is this: the very expensive single cone Velodynes do not dig as deep as the single cone Epik. They do not have the same output. However, they are a compromise between raw output and accuracy that no other sub to date seems to come close to. The inbuilt room correction on the Velodynes also make them a 'plug and play' option. My assertion is that is why they were and still are expensive. They do everything very, very well. They just don't dig as deep or go as loud as some other subs; but those other subs don't do the complete package as well as the Velodynes.

If I had the dollars, I'd have an Epik Conquest to augment the Velodyne DD-18. On music, I doubt there's anything better (more accurate) than a Velodyne. The Danley 'tower of power' might come close due to the tapped horn configuration....

At the end of the day given the budget imposed you will not get a single cone 'one sub does all' solution. Pick what you need more of and buy whatever delivers that. Just don't expect it to do what the really expensive single cone subs do.

[TheEAR]

The large Epik is in no way more accurate than the HGS/DD18. Itis capable of vastly superior output below 20Hz.

Distortion in the subsonic bass is also percieved as MORE output by the human hearing. The Danley sub(using the 12" driver) is capable of higher clean output than the big Epik,no contest here.

[askbob1]

a few things to add... the distortion equaling more output with human hearing is most likely what i'm talking about missing without the ported design. i have built many sub boxes starting back in '92 when car audio was in its infancy. simple sealed, ported, 2nd and 4th order bandpass boxes. bass, as in 1994 when orion was american made and had a demo van with 18 twelve inch drivers that would demolish windshields and would permanantly deafen you without aircraft grade hearing protection. if you have ever experienced the 'feeling' of that amount of bass, then you know how to justify 'quantities' and 'qualities' of the lower realms of the frequency range. not that i'm looking for that extreme amount, but i do realize what and if something is missing or if something is not near worthy of certain acclaim. especially with some of the pricing for these subs. i do realize everyone has their idea of clean output at different Hz ranges.

for instance, everyone here with the rsw try listening to the opening track of dark side of the moon. let me know how much impact is there in the first minute or so.

[sivadselim]

But, yes, if he added a 20Hz data point like craigsub did/does, things would change significantly.

I'm confused: http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/C2.pdf

Even though he may do many more measurements, Noussaine doesn't include a 20Hz (or lower) measurement in his subwoofer rankings. The measurements he includes in his average output calculation are at 25, 32, 40, 50 and 62Hz. The RSW15 doesn't have anywhere near the 20Hz output that the Conquest has. So, if Noussaine included the additional 20Hz measurement, and ranked subs based upon their average output at 20, 25, 32, 40, 50Hz, and 62Hz, like craigsub does, then the Conquest would have outscored the RSW15 by more than .5dB.

What are you confused about?

[sivadselim]

For instance, everyone here with the rsw try listening to the opening track of dark side of the moon. let me know how much impact is there in the first minute or so.

CD? SACD? DVD-A? The heartbeats? They sound great to me. Of course, I've not heard them on a Conquest.

[Q-Man]

I didn't realize how much I was missing untill I got the Conquest.

[michael hurd]

Low distortion bass is a sickness I tell ya... LOL...... feed your addiction!

[TheEAR]

I did not realise what I was missing untill I got my TWENTY driver wall O subs finished. Now I have totally effortless abyss bass at my command. From near DC to 80Hz reference levels are smashed with total ease. []

Power is addictive,now a single JL Audio f113 or any single commercial sub is just...restricted. []

[askbob1]

For instance, everyone here with the rsw try listening to the opening track of dark side of the moon. let me know how much impact is there in the first minute or so.

CD? SACD? DVD-A? The heartbeats? They sound great to me. Of course, I've not heard them on a Conquest.

sacd. yep, the heartbeats. there is a lot of low end information there that does not come across very well with the rsw. the rw-12d played the lower hz much better.

[SWL]

i'm not too concerned about playing excessively loud below 20-25 hz, but at the same time i believe this is where some of the impact i'm looking for is lacking? thus back to the ported sound i am more familiar with.

This may be due to the fact that the RSW-15 blends so perfectly into the 7's.

I think you're on the right track to invest in a second sub that plays deeper. In my case, I have RSW-15's to blend with my 7's......and an SVS PB-12 Ultra 2 that is ported and cranks out the deep bass. This is a match made in heaven. However, I have not heard the Conquest many people seem to dig.

[askbob1]

right on swl! my next 'stereo' investment will be the svs ultra-13 which is ported. the rsw does have nice attributes and looks well with the rest of its 7 family. i just need that little extra that exists. the conquest would probably be a better bang for the buck, but the size is a lttle much.

[SWL]

You'll be happy with the Ultra. [Y]

[DrWho]

Roger,

Wouldn't that mean that the sub just has the capability of playing lower frequencies and not that it would be any "better" at movies vs music? Like I said, a good speaker is a good speaker, a bad speaker is a bad speaker. Some have more range than others making them better at reproducing the source material regardless of that material being a movie or music.

No,

A sub that can play lower than you can hear is a definate plus for movies, it is what shakes the couch, hits you in the chest, rattless windows, and nocks *** off of the walls. Just because that sub plays that low, doesn't mean it will sound best, or even good with music. There is a reason that some subs comand $3,000, $5,000, or more, they usually do both well. My Velodyne HGS-18IIs can play louder, lower, and more accurately than the RSW-15, but they were twice the price new. What is important is that for X ammount of dollars, you may be compromising, and which of the two is more important to you. $1500 is not a high level sub...

Roger

I dunno, I gotta side with Bhenry on this one...a subwoofer need to cover the bandwidth of the source material, period. There is nothing preventing music from digging as low, if not lower than movies - it's all a matter of what the artists put into the recording.

However, it should be mentioned that lowering the bandwidth of the speaker will reduce its performance at higher frequencies...which is why a lot of the bottom feeder subs touted as being awesome for movies sound lackluster with music that doesn't dig low. Really, what's going on is the bottom feeders are just higher distortion, but some people care more about rattling than they do precision. And then there's some that want both, which is where things start to get expensive. But with that in mind, I also think a lot of people don't correctly correlate the frequency response of their systems to what they hear

[DrWho]

pleased with movies as in it does a pretty good job of that. i'm not too concerned about playing excessively loud below 20-25 hz, but at the same time i believe this is where some of the impact i'm looking for is lacking? thus back to the ported sound i am more familiar with. i'll give it more of a workout next week when the rest of my emotiva gear arrives. i'll try more setup variations then. right now, the lowly ole onkyo 702 ain't cuttin' it!!

It's been my experience that "impact" usually comes in around 50-70Hz actually...and I'd be willing to wager that the lack of impact in your system is more likely the result of room modes and/or the crossover between the mains and sub.

I've heard the RSW-15 in plenty of situations where it slams wicked hard if you crank it up...it's amazing what acoustics can do to the sound of a subwoofer (both good and bad).

[Mr. RF62]

Uh, what about this: http://www.paradigm.com/en/reference/subwoofer_only-specification-20-4-5-17.paradigm looks impressive, maybe EAR can pick it up measure it and give a review.

[CECAA850]

Uh, what about this: http://www.paradigm.com/en/reference/subwoofer_only-specification-20-4-5-17.paradigm looks impressive, maybe EAR can pick it up measure it and give a review.

A pretty beastly looking (spec wise) 15" sub. What's the msrp on that thing?

[Mr. RF62]

I have no clue, but it does look good on paper!

Looks like its $4,000 U.S. 3in. Peak to Peak cone travel for a 15

[CECAA850]

They also recomend a dedicated 20 amp circiut to run it.

[gilbertma]

I love my Epik Conquest! It runs really well with my RF front stage and with my mancave only being 12.5' wide there is plenty of room gain (subwoofer wind tunnel?). I haven't done any measurements but have run test tones in the 14 hz - 30 hz range and this sub just eats those up and delivers as advertised (Nousaine's measurements seem right to me, at least by the seat of my pants). All you have to do is get over the size thing, it's a little too big for most peoples living rooms.