Deang

firejim is my hero ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

They actually look pretty nice -- real good shape except for that crushed dustcap. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

Christos -- I was completely making a joke! As a matter of fact I visit your quite often, as the reference systems are simply gorgeous to look at. I actually would have stayed with vinyl if I had not sold every single record I used to own. It would simply be impossible to replace them now. I have neither the time, nor the resources to start over. Boa -- all you need now is 8-track! builder -- A vet. I repent in dust in ashes. You deserve the highest respect. I mean that. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

Dave >>What Diamond noticed was that the oldsters did not react the same to the CD's, even though it was the same music, that they had to analog. They did not quiet down and listen, and seemed bored.<< Considering just how bad PCM sounded during that time frame -- this should not surprise us. It wasnt just our imaginations, it sounded very bad. PCM is not a loss-less technology like vinyl, and it has taken PCM 20 years to become listenable.f>s> >>sound-card in refurbished 200mhz or better computer (less than 200) will provide CD playback equal to or better than a dedicated CD player at twice the price. Further, ripping CD's to WAV files (without transcoding!) is far more convenient than handling CD's.<< To rip CDs to WAV files still entails handling CDs. Also, WAV files are still just 0s and 1s and I fail to see how this process gives you more than what you started with. That is, you start with a certain amount of binary information and you end with the same amount of binary information. I guess I dont fully understand. On another note, how does this process compare to a player at 2 times the price? I would be really interested in more detail regarding the equipment, software, and exact process you undertake to achieve the results you describe (Im not always the brightest light in the chandelier). What do you mean by "transcoding".f>s> mdeneen >>I have no doubt the reports above are true. Which is to say, most LPs sound better than most CDs on most systemsthe most common proposition is that "digital is just ones and zeros which lack a certain soul, and LPs are the REAL music represented in an analog wave and this more soulful<< The reasoning is that PCM doesnt really translate or utilize ALL of the information available from the source. Evidently, it would take more binary information than CD can store in order to accurately represent all of the analog information. There is considerable compression. At least, this is my understanding.f>s> >>LPs of the Golden Era - say the 50s and 60s - were generally made from much simpler micing techniques than CDs made today. So, for instance, a nice jazz ensemble recorded in '56 might have used 5 or 6 mics simply placed and recorded direct to the master tape. Mixing would then be a rather simple task. Today, that same recording would use 25 mics, a digital console, massive over dubbing, and very complicated mixing including having musicians play the parts at different times, in different studios and on different media, which get assembled later.<< I think this would also apply to recordings made through most of the 70s. I think your latter statement regarding the complexity of more recent recording methods along with the inherent limitations of the PCM process, worked together to account for the shear awfulness of most CDs over the last 20 years. The learning curve for Recording Engineers must have also been immense. Simply to many changes in the process at one time. What I believe however, is that advancements in the technology utilized by the studios coupled with more extensive experience has led to some very good current PCM recordings. I have purchased many of the new 20 bit (and more) remasters of discs originally released in the early 80s and they are a substantial improvement. A few are inferior remixes but they have almost no discernible grain.f>s> >>The LP technology, compared to CD technology has a) less dynamic range narrower frequency response c) higher noise level d) less channel separation and e) an inability to remain stable in some of the modern playback environments. I cant imagine a table trying to track accurately in my listening room with my playback habits. Higher than normal SPLs and the powerful pressure waves from my sub would present a virtual nightmare to any table and arm combination. You can only isolate so much. >>and LP is very comparable in this regard to today's "FM Stereo Broadcast" specificationsYesterday, C&S reports to me how "wonderful" his McIntosh MR65 tuner has been sounding compared to his various other sources of LP, 78 and so on. And I start thinking, "Hmmmm, yes, my MR-71 sounds very nice too." He goes on to ask, "Why is that?"<< Dont forget about all the strange things FM stations do to those signals. We know they boost the lows and highs considerably.f>s> >>what might account for our LP preference is this: Just the right FR balance, not too much "stereo effect" (closer to mono), This would make it similar to today's FM. Also, since the sessions were generally miced in a more natural way, and since there was a distinct lack of processing on the boards, a more inherently "natural" sound on the master tape. A better recording to start with.<< I think the emphasis should be on the word "balanced". Not in how it relates to imaging, sound-staging, or separation but simply in the sense of how the top and bottom of the frequency spectrum relate to each other.f>s> >>Many CDs are gimmicked up. Why? Because they can.<< I think for the longest time they sounded the way they did was because they were mixed to sound good on boom-boxes, and not high-end, accurate stereo systems.f>s> >>What really happens when you try to record up to 20KHz - and you end up with a lot of "sizzle" on the recording that is generally TOTALLY missing from LPs?<< I dont anything happens when you try to record up to 20KHz. Ive been playing around with a test disc and SPL meter recently, I found out that I cannot hear anything above 15KHz. The 15KHz test tone is non-existent to my ears. So the fact that CDs can really go to 20KHz is inconsequential as far as my hearing is concerned. However, the older CD releases still sound quite hot on top. I think they were boosting the levels between 8 and 12KHz to enhance playback on systems not capable of accurate reproduction.f>s> >>And, in real performances filtered out of the air by the woman's flowered hat in front of you..<< Yes, this woman is everywhere. I hate that women in the hat.f>s> >>if you have tone controls on your preamp, try playing a CD, and shaping it more like an FM broadcast. Cut the bass a bit starting at 50Hz. Cut the highs starting at 10 or 12KHz. Blend the two channels back together a bit to get less "stereo separation." Does it sound closer to the LP?<< I would be simply amazed if an FM broadcast even goes to 12KHz. I say if one likes the older music - just stick with vinyl. If one likes much of the newer stuff (early 90's and forward), just go ahead and stay with CD because it has gotten so much better that it has pretty much closed the gap, and then of course there is SACD. Between the new PCM releases, reissues of slightly older material redone with 20 bit and more, SACD, and the quality of sound I'm hearing from the new DACs -- the temptation to go back to vinyl just isn't there for me anymore.f>s> This message has been edited by deang on 05-31-2002 at 02:13 PM

HSU can be seen and purchased online at www.hsuresearch.com I recently bought the HSU electronic crossover which is an excellent piece of gear for the money -- so I know these folks can engineer. My main problem with the subs is that the driver is at the top, making the units kind of top heavy (bad if you have kids or pets), there is no grill (protection) for the driver, and they are also engineered to be placed as close to your sitting position as possible -- versus corner loaded (placement). The most performance for the money is SVS. This is not even open to debate. For $800 you can get the big one in the powered version with the built in crossover. It will roughly give you the output of two 1000 watt cubes. I am not kidding. It may have a low WAF, and my wife said it looked like an "ugly water heater" -- but after she heard it she actually preferred it to both the Boston Acoustics PV1000 and Klipsch LF10 I used to have (both high powered cubes with passive radiators). Don't play around and do what I did -- which was buy three different subs and lose over $1000 before I finally did what I should have done in the first place. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

Kelly, I feel the recent generation DACs are very good. Until recently, I would have never even remotely considered a Sony machine. When you get some time I would pleased if you would read the review I wrote for the Sony DVP-S9000ES at the Asylum. I copied the post to this site here You might also find the following three threads interesting (they are short). http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hirez/messages/76576.html http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hirez/messages/75315.html http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hirez/messages/70968.html ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> This message has been edited by deang on 05-31-2002 at 01:36 AM

Here you go -- we were just discussing the deal with the marker the other day at the Asylum. Here is the article as posted. http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hirez/messages/75153.html ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> This message has been edited by deang on 05-30-2002 at 11:24 PM

Hetmann I'm very familiar with that table. I had the one two models up with the black lacquer finish. It's actually a pretty decent rig for the money. Why not fire her up and see what shes got? Mike Would you believe that's what I just got done doing with my kids? Sounded pretty darn good on my wimpy 2-channel tube rig Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> This message has been edited by deang on 05-30-2002 at 11:00 PM

i can't believe i just read this whole thread my head hurts oh gawd -- it's the damn glue -- I gotta get outta here ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

1) Mobile Homeless: First this guy shows up and starts on everybody with this tube crap. Cheap tube amps, expensive tube amps, tube amps that don't work, tube amps that should work, and of course -- tube rectalfiers. We all buy tube amps, and then he vanishes. Gone. Invisible. Leaving us alone with these damn devices. Over the last two months I have spent $1400 on NOS, and have enough tubes for 3 complete retube jobs for my amp and preamp. I am broke, and I am completely happy. Thanks Mobile and welcome back (about damn time too)! BTW - I am NEVER, EVER, buying another turntable. However, could you recommend an affordable one? 2) Mdeneen: This guy shows up like Batman. Not your casual poster. Not until half the board is in panic mode does he show up to sort out the messes we've gotten ourselves into. I bought a special dictionary so I can understand some of his posts. I finally learned that Mdeneen stands for Mostly Diodes Ending Near Each Electrical Node. Every couple of days I take my AE-25 out of 'standby' and have to listen to that damn POP. Every couple of days I think to myself, "I should just send this thing to Mdeneen." I for one would like to hear more from you. Thanks Mdeneen. 3)MaxG: What the hell is up with this guy. Posts fabulous reviews of SACD. I think to myself. Well, Max is credible, it must really be good. So I spend a month reading everything I can about SACD. I even go to the dreaded Asylum risking the abuse of Inmates to ask questions. I finally decide to bite the bullet. I sell my $1700 Anthem CD-1 and go buy a freaking Sony DVS9000ES (yes, a Sony of all things), and come back here to find out Max has sold his SACD player and is now using a dinky record player!! I would like to say "see #1" -- but I can't. No, this pollution is the work of the evil entity -- SKALOUMBAKAS. However, I love the 9000ES. What a great machine. Thanks Max! (BTW - you shouldn't have sold your deck. Most SACD releases are reissues and sound mediocre at best. The new releases sound fabulous.) HDBRbuilder: FNG with an attitude. This guy is destined to win the Klipsch Story Teller Contest. His stories are great. I spend a lot of time trying to come up with an angle for my story. I'm hoping I can pull a monkey out of my butt. Since I have no real Klipsch stories -- I may have to make one up. I have a problem though. My imagination can't conjure up anything better than "Engineer Jim and the Famous Fencepost Incident." Welcome to the forum HDBR! Forresthump&TheEar(s): Forresthump only shows up when TheEar(s) shows up. I have been watching carefully, and I'm convinced they are in fact the same person. Colin: He has been watching tubes glowing for so long he has transformed into a Getter, extinguishing all gases, and a creating vacuum wherever he goes. He has become a recluse, and doesn't post as often as he used to. His insight is uncanny, and he always seems to use verbiage which perfectly describes any given situation. We need more of Colin! Boa12: Boa does not understand two-channel. He just can't figure out how it can even work. In order for a piece of audio to be deemed worthy -- it must have more integrated circuits, switches, and programming options than the space shuttle. Boa explains things to newbies the way engineers explain complex concepts to children. If I ever buy a HT receiver, I will also have to buy Boa a plane ticket to come out and set it up for me. Any piece of gear with more than two switches or buttons is beyond my ability to operate. This largely explains why I am still into two-channel. I enjoy telling people the reason I like two-channel is because it sounds better. There. I have told the truth. Thanks for taking care of the HT board Boa! Newbies: The board is suddenly populated with all these new people. Where in the hell did they come from? Most of them are quite knowledgeable. Should we expect anything less from new additions to the Klipsch family. I could go on forever. I was just feeling grateful for this forum and thought I would post a 'thank you' to all the forum members -- especially to those who have helped make my system the best I have ever had. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> This message has been edited by deang on 05-30-2002 at 09:58 PM

Even YOU, the "Mr. RF-7" of this thread, admit that if/when you "can afford" it, you desire a Heritage HT set-up....I rest my case on that!!! That's me. Mr. RF7. And when my 4 kids move out, I will certainly be buying some monster horns for HT in my livingroom. Then I will be an 'old hornie' too! But I will still always play a lot of music on my Klipschcones. "Bye the way...for what you have spent for those RF-7's, you could already be well on your way to a Heritage home theater through purchases on eBay...doncha think? But then I wouldn't have RF7's ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

Yes, I'm sure if those K-horns had been hooked up to a real amplifier they would have sounded much better. I was only trying to say that most other speakers are typically more forgiving in what you drive them with -- and so from that standpoint are easier to sell. I mean, most here will agree that to hear Heritage at its best, you need tubes -- and most people just aren't inclined to go that way. You made very good points however, but keep in mind I was only speculating. My point was really that I didn't believe they built an RF7 to compete head on with a Klipschorn. I understand the limitations of the RF7 -- as well as it's strengths. My original point, and still is -- is that no one should be buying a set speakers without first hearing them. I realize because my post was written in the form of a response to your comments, it may have seemed like I was discounting the Cornwall as a valid choice. However, if you go back and read my first two paragraphs without reading into them -- I was just trying to say: "If you buy them without hearing them first, and then don't like them...". In spite of my bias -- I would certainly enjoy having a set of Cornwalls or Klipschorns sitting in my living room. I would even rent a forklift BTW - I have enjoyed reading your contributions to the forum and look forward to swinging swords with you again in the future! ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

I'll be doing it all over again later tonight. I need to do it without the sub and each speaker separately. I'll then balance the speakers, and then measure them together again. After that, I will add in the sub and adjust it for music. I'll do it at 75db and see what happens. thanks Mike ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

Builder Yeah, right, I am sure PWK established his design parameters for the Jubilee based on your postings!!..LOL! uhh...I was making a joke. I can't believe you thought I was being serious. ...thus allowing for a wide range horn tweeter and eliminating the need for a midrange horn/driver assembly. always a good idea ...BUT...are these frequencies being reproduced with a full, rounded at peak and trough soundwave????...OR...is that soundwave distorted by clipping at its peaks and troughs? Clipping from the amp, or 'clipping' because the transducer is incapable of reproducing the full waveform? I think I know what you are saying. You are telling me that a fully loaded horn system has less compression. I accept that. OTOH, I also believe you can go the middle ground and reduce compression without losing warmth and texture -- which are also attibutes of live music. Absolutey. The dynamics of a fully loaded horn system are much closer the live music than what the RF7's do. But at what cost? Dynamics is not the end all of music reproduction. I heard K-horns extensively in the middle 70's. They sat in that shop for over a year before someone bought them. Sure, they could make the material on the bottom of my pants flap -- but I was also yelling for ear plugs. They sure didn't sound very good on that Crown amp. Put that same Crown amp on a set of Dahlquist DQ10's, and in spite of the lack of dynamics as compared to the K-horn -- was a much more musically satisfying experience. .....In other words....whether it sounds good to you or not.....IS IT ACCURATE REPRODUCTION OF SOUND?...Think about it...and try and think just how large a radiator has to be in order to take that low-end wave in its response curve and make it a FULL, UNDISTORTED WAVE!!! Tough to battle with you on this point. Really, I know what you are saying here. I pretty much have to concede this point. However, we are for the most part talking Cornwalls here, not K-horns. The Cornwall does not have loaded bass, so as far as I'm concerned -- it's in the same boat with the RF7 in principle. I can only say that a set of RF7's and single SVS sub in my listening room, reproduces 20Hz at 110db and shakes the entire house. That wave is being propagated. Probably not as clean sounding as a K-horn does at 30Hz -- buy hey, you gotta hear it to believe it. I can't help but think a pair of RF7's and a pair of SVS Ultra's (which would run a little more than 1/2 the price of some K-horns) -- would have no problem in creating an immediate bowel movement. Isn't that what sound reproduction is all about?...ACCURATE REPRODUCTION? Or is it better to just try and fool our ears into believing that INACCURATE reproduction is actually "close enough" just because we want something slimmer and taller in our living rooms? Think about it!! Nuff Said! No, that's not what it is all about. It's about creating a musical satisfying experience. Besides, horns only do some things 'accurately'. There are some things related to music that horns don't always do very well. Take controlled directivity for example. Great for projecting what is on the recording -- but not so great in the sense that live sound tends to bounce around quite a bit. There is a speaker that does that pretty good, but I ain't gonna say it. ...ok....show me something you have informed this soul about besides the bias you are spouting in favor of the RF-7!!! O.K. Regardless of what is considered to be the most speaker for the money -- what it really comes down to is what sounds the best To YOU. I have heard many speakers, many expensive speakers -- and many of them I did not like. I have heard $1000 monitors that I preferred over $5000 floor standers. The emphasis should always be placed on what sound a person prefers. Period. At any rate, of course the Cornwalls are not out-of-date, any more than any other speaker design is "out-of-date". I still like the sound of AR11's, Old Advents, and the DQ-10s. As different as each of these speakers are from each other -- they each do different things equally well. "Quality", such a subjective thing. I have better advice. Listen and compare before you buy, or you could be crying in your beer. Good enough? ...AND...what the hell difference does it make to point out sonic differences to ANYBODY, if "what it really comes down to is what sounds best to you!" True. By the way...I kinda wonder what happens when they build a Reference series prototype and test it??...do they say something like: "How does it stack up against a k-horn?".....or maybe now that they are building k-horns again, they say: "How does that k-horn stack up against an RF-7?" No. I think they said. "We aren't selling enough Legends, and we aren't selling enough Heritage. We need something that people will buy. Something that sounds better than what everyone else is selling, but also something people can afford. We need to up the ante. We need cutting edge in a package we can sell. We don't want to sacrifice our namesake, but at the same time we have to edge our way into a market accustomed to a sense of politeness in reproduced music. We need something in-between. Dynamic, yet warm. A sense of immediacy yet without a sense of aggressiveness. Large - but not too large. We need something totally different. We need to survive." It's like Mdeneen said. It's apples and oranges. They can be compared -- but it will ultimately come down to preference. It's totally subjective. Always will be. You like apples and I like oranges. If I have $6500, and had to choose between a set of K-horns, and a complete Reference HT setup with two SVS Ultras and dedicated amp -- well... ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

Sure like to give some Edgars a whirl. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

Fixed Well, the chart - not the room. Uhgg. Want equalizer. Maybe for Christmas. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

ah yes...awarded 'no life' status under his moniker. i do believe i'm jealous. still just a 'freak'. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

Tom Titanium is heavier than aluminum and has less high frequency response for a given magnetic circuit. Don't really understand how this translates to particular sonic signature of each material. I just know that over the years, I have found aluminium HF drivers to sound somewhat dry. Titanium OTOH, always sounds immediate and alive. I'm not convinced the new metal Klipsch woofers are better damped, all the metal woofers I've seen response curves on show a great deal of high-frequency ringing which must be quashed by a drastic notch filter in the crossover. The cones are not 'metal'. It is a composite material. Aluminium is sandwiched between two layers of ceramic. Please read the white paper I provided the link for at the Infinity site written by Floyd Toole and Allan Deventier -- it's informative. The materials in compression drivers are pretty much the same as years ago save for titianium and berilium used as diaphrams, and the switch from Alnico to ferrite magnets... I guess this is a good thing? ...I REALLY don't like cone speakers very much, that's why I listen to horns... Much of this probably comes down to what one is used to. I'm sure you remember from my Asylum posts that I spent the better part of a decade with Magnepans. When I finally got bored with them, it was tough finding something to replace them. After all, I really liked the richness and texture of the Maggies, but missed the attack and decay properties of dynamic drivers. What was a poor guy to do -- jump to Khorns? I don't really 'hate' three-way exponential horn systems, but they are just too 'in my face' for everyday listening. The RF7's give me some of everything I like in good speakers. I get some of the richness and texture of a planar, and much better dynamics than a straight up direct radiator design. Argue as we will about the technology it all gets down to preference and if you're happy with your RFs then that's aces with me, I'm happy for you, really, I'm not cracking wise. Why Mr. Tom, I do believe that's the nicest thing you've ever said to me. Uhh, I think it might be nicest thing you've ever said to anyone why not take a weekend and come to one of our Chicago Horn Club meetings? I think Straight-Arrow is having one in Lafeyette Indianer in July. I'll bring my JBLs and Edgars. Maybe you'd like a 2-way running down to 650hz. ? Cmon. Yea, I should do that, really should. 3 hour drive I can handle. Let me know when, and I'll clear my calendar. No doubt I would to hear some two-ways going down to 650Hz, and Edgars would be cool too. Mdeneen I guess to add to the TBrennan logic, an RF-7 is not really a horn speaker, but rather a cone speaker with a horn for a tweeter. So, whatever its redeeming values are, and I'm sure they are many, they should rightly be compared to cone speakers of whatever brand you like. Man, what a mean thing to say. I don't even know how to respond to that one. Uhh, how about it has one horn instead of two? I mean, it looks like a horn If you don't have horns at least down into the midrange, there is simply no "horn-like" quality left to the sound... Well, there is the fundemental of the note, and then of course all of those harmonics. Yes, the majority of the midrange fundamentals are being reproduced by the cones, but all of the associated harmonics of those midrange fundamentals are being reproduced by the horn. Not going to let me get away with this one are you. All other nonsense aside, HORN drivers sound FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT than cones. And that matters not whether the cone is made from paper, plastic or crushed diamonds. Whether there is one cone playing or 16 cones. The entire principle of a compression driver is radically differenent than a piston driver, and you can hear that. Crushed diamonds would have a high WAF. I think you might be on to something. The sound of both speakers mentioned is fine. They can each satisfy various tastes, but they are simply not "directly comparable" on the same scale. Likewise you can't directly compare a Linn turntable to a Sony SACD player. It doesn't make sense. You are usually right about everything, but this time I think you're wrong. I mean, you can compare anything, right? "Old Hornies" as the term is used around here, simply hear a completely different "quality" to the sound in horn systems than you can ever get with cones. I believe that is probably true. I think it might be somewhat of an 'aquired' taste. Just take a simple taste test: Find your favorite vocal material - record, CD whatever, then play it on a VERY expensive cone system - any system - even one costing $150,000 - Watt-Puppies, Grand Slams, whatever. Then play that same vocal on K-horns, Altecs, JBL horns, or Cornwalls. I'm not predicting which you will PREFER, but the DIFFERENCE in the "character of the sound" will startle you. Emphasis on the word startle Also, take a look at a frequency chart - - you know - where they plot what makes what sounds at what frequencies. You will see that at 2200 Hz, all the interesting dynamic stuff is over. Yes, there is a good one here . What you are saying is really true, so I cannot argue against what you are saying. I do think there is some truth to my argument regarding reproduction of the harmonics by the horn in the RF7. I mean, the damn speaker is pretty dynamic, and the horn is doing something! So having a "horn" above 2200Hz is in my estimation nothing more than "window dressing" to say, "Hey guys, we are still in the horn speaker business!" You're being mean again. The RF7 is a fine speaker and offers a fairly high level of refinement and a decent slam factor to boot. Well, c'mon, not REALLY! You could replace that twinky little RF7 tweeter driver with any number of high-quality standard dome tweeters and the system would sound fundamentally the same. Because the fundamental quality of what you are hearing is those cones. No way. You ever hold one of those drivers in your hands? I have. 'Twinky little' don't get it. It's almost 2 inches in diameter and weighs well over 2 pounds. As far a "fundamental quality" or sonic signature goes -- all I can say is grab a conehead and tell them the RF7 is NOT really a horn loaded speaker. Go to the Polk site and read all of the responses generated by my posts challenging them to go take a listen. Many came back and basically said, "you know, them new horns sound pretty damn good -- but they STILL SOUND LIKE HORNS, LONG LIVE POLK. "Fundamentally", what we hear with the RF7 is not the sonic signature strictly associated with cones or horns -- but rather an integration of concepts and technologies that creates a completely unique sonic signature. Even a casual listener however, can make out the fact that there is a horn present. Enjoy which every path you choose and good luck! Thanks Mdeneen -- enjoy I do! mdeneen mpwagon deang loves this! RF7's must be the best, cause that's what he has. There is no 'best'. That's what makes all this so interesting. The RF7's are not "the best" because that is what I own. The RF7's are the best because they sounded the best to me out of all the speakers I had an opportunity to hear -- with $3.2K to spend. Mdeneen ...I'm laying 11 to 5 that you will never see another "horn speaker" from the Klipsch company. No Jubilees, no Heritage, no Cornwall revivals. Well, you've already lost that bet since Klipsch is again manufacturing the Heritage line. They also make a nice line called 'All Hat No Cattle Horns' Who'd buy them? The 200 guys active on this forum that already own Heritage? It's a pity, but the hornies are an arcane, niche within a niche. A total anachronism. A market so small that only cottage makers like Edgar, etc. are interested. HT and MP3 put the final nails in that coffin. If I had the money I would buy Heritage for a separate HT system. I would love to have a set of Belles and 4 SVS Ultra's. Man, that would be the bomb. Don't be so negative Mdeneen. You're bumming me out. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> This message has been edited by deang on 05-29-2002 at 02:55 PM

I have to get one of these vacuum cleaners for my wife ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

So nice to see you back Kelly -- we have really missed your contributions and good company. I have listed my Super Amp a couple of times on AudiogoN, and just last night removed an add for it. Looks like I'm going to be a daddy again, and was thinking I could sell the amp, get another tubey, and put some cash back in my pocket to boot. The problem is, everytime I turn that thing on, I get such a rush. That AE-25 is the single most intelligent audio purchase I have ever made. The fact is, I'm smart enough to know that if I sold it -- I would just be plain sick. I can't really say I would consider the Super Amp exessively forward, especially with most of my previous listening being done with solid state. I did do a run for about a year with the Anthem EL-34 based amp, and it does seem to be a little more forward compared to that. However, at the same time, The Super Amp has a crispness, transparency, and openess that was completely absent from the Anthem. It may be that since I have it paired up with the RF7's instead 'real' horns -- there is no sense of undue forwardness. As a matter of fact, I believe the Super Amp and RF7's to be a marriage made in Heaven. I wish I had the money to buy Chris' Super Amp. I would love to biamp those suckers. OTOH -- There is no real reason to. I recently purchased the SVS 20-39 CS+ subwoofer , accompanying Samson pro amp, and HSU electronic crossover . The crossover is outstanding. I purchased it with the 51Hz modules and I feed the full range signal through the crossover. Certainly not the purist approach and I was hesitant to do it, but the combination ended up working flawlessly with the AE-25. If there is any degradation to the signal from the crossover, I do not detect it. I can't say enough good things about this crossover -- it is truly outstanding. At any rate -- It is simply phenomenal what that 15 watts sounds like. Godsmack anyone ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> This message has been edited by deang on 05-29-2002 at 11:38 AM

I just found out the other day that my frequency response curve is totally "wrong". Evidently, the common Rat Shack meter isn't really calibrated all that well, and apparently -- it is necessary to add in factors at various frequency points to get an accurate plot. http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/messages/49147.html ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

http://www.svsubwoofers.com/ampeq_rane_pe17.htm ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

I guess I got a few things to say. Dollar for dollar spent, the Cornwalls will be the best buy! Regardless of what is considered to be the most speaker for the money -- what it really comes down to is what sounds the best To YOU. I have heard many speakers, many expensive speakers -- and many of them I did not like. I have heard $1000 monitors that I preferred over $5000 floor standers. The emphasis should always be placed on what sound a person prefers. Period. ...One thing about Cornwalls is that they will escalate in value. I kinda like old heritage speakers because of that factor alone...one must put the price of the Cornwall close to that of a LaScala. When you are looking at a newly manufactured Cornwall as going for over 2500 bucks a pair (if included in the line-up)...it kinda makes the prices for them in great used condition seem pretty inexpensive! If a person likes the sound of the Cornwall, then this "value" argument is legitimate. If however, they do not like the sound of the Cornwall -- then who cares what they are "worth". A speaker that one does not like the sound of has no true "value" as far as listening goes. ...As for the heritage line being out-of-date...far from the truth!! All the Heritage line was developed by PWK himself!! I don't see what the first statement has to do with the second. At any rate, of course the Cornwalls are not out-of-date, any more than any other speaker design is "out-of-date". I still like the sound of AR11's, Old Advents, and the DQ-10s. As different as each of these speakers are from each other -- they each do different things equally well. The king of the KLIPSCH line is still the Klipschorn...as it has been since day one!! With new pairs of k-horns starting at over 6000 bucks, you gotta wonder how anything else is better at a lower price in the line!!... Again, price isn't really indicative of anything as far as hearing and preference is concerned. There are many who actually prefer the sound of the Cornwall to the Klipschorn. Also, three-way exponential horn systems are simply not everyone's cup of tea. I think it is intellectually dishonest to continually spout ones bias, and never point out the sonic differences in speakers so that someone might be helped in making an informed choice. The Jubilee home version will likely be in the 10 grand plus area!! And, remember, the Jubilee is basically the FINAL heritage speaker..PWK's final attempted improvement over the k-horn, from what I hear, and a two-way speaker to boot!!!! PWK's parameters for the Jubilee: "No sense in making a new speaker if it can't be a better speaker than the k-horn is...and I want this to be a two-way system instead of a three-way system!" This happened because PK kept reading all of my posts about two-ways. I guess it finally got to him. ...With all these different original uses for the speaker designs in the Heritage line...and considering they are all originally supposed to be supplements to the k-horn....it is quite amazing that they ALL became quite popular as primary speaker set-ups in their own right!!! Something to be said for that, don't you think? Gotta be a reason!! What is so amazing? I used two RC7's (center channel speaker) as mains until I had the money to upgrade to the RF7's. People simply could either not afford K-horns, or didn't have corners for them, and since the driver compliments were for the most part identical -- individuals decided to get a pair of La-Scalas or Belles. As for the availability of these speakers on eBay and such...note that no speaker Klipsch has ever produced has equaled the volumes of heritage speakers produced!! So, even though there are numbers of them showing up on eBay and such...the IMPORTANT thing is how reasonable some of the prices are...well below the actual value of the speakers!! Since Klipsch started selling Reference they have been able to expand their facilities, and facilitate new hires. Over a two year period, the RF3 out sold almost every other similar product in the market. Many people seem to like the sound of the 'new' Klipsch. Sure, lot's of different lines over the years -- and Klipsch kept banging away until they got it right. Now they have a winner. I imagine Reference will be around until it's not selling well anymore. If recent numbers are indicative of anything, it is that they will be selling for quite some time. Also note that the REASON for the sale of most of these are due to estate sales, people moving in to smaller quarters with no room for them, etc....never are they sold because the owner doesn't like the sound!!! Show me just one eBay ad where the owner is getting rid of them because he prefers another speaker's sound!!!(unless of course it is a better Klipsch heritage model!!) And of course if I were trying to sell a speaker I would advertise the reason for selling as "do not like the sound". Truth is, most speaker sales are exactly just that -- attempting to find another sound preferable to what one has presently. Many are without a doubt advertised as being sold for reasons related to estate -- but that doesn't mean that is the real reason, much less the only reason. Sad thing about all of this is how many good heritage speakers are being gutted by the speaker ghouls to sell the components separately, since they get more for them than the speakers would bring on their own!!! Must be because the cabinets are so ugly Only kidding!!! Seriously, I do wish Klipsch would create a Reference speaker with the build quality of Heritage. You'll get no argument from me here on this. I would gladly pay $500 more for a better cabinet. Want to build me a couple But, also realize this: If Klipsch ever announces it will NEVER manufacture any of the heritage line again...just watch those eBay prices for Heritage speakers skyrocket!!!! Actually, I am a bit surprised the sellers haven't used PWK's passing to jack up their reserves yet!! This is certainly true. TBrennan Man, you are brutal. Please stop with the 'cones suck' posts. Besides, I dont agree. ...they DON'T make them like they used to. They sure don't, but it's not the end of the world. Reference, and most speakers will sure not take the abuse of any Heritage speaker -- but I'm sure they will last just as long. I just saw a mint set of Advents sell on Ebay, and them suckers were 30 years old. Yep, sure can't drop MDF speakers off the back of a truck the solution to keeping them nice is not to drop them off the back of a truck. ...this old hornie doesn't want to hear 2200 hz coming from a cone, no sir. That's what Bose is for. I'm sorry you're an old hornie Tom, but us new hornies like the new cones just fine. I mean c'mon, 2200Hz isnt all that bad for a $2000 two-way. Also, 1)... some of that is being reproduced by the horn due to overlapping from the crossover. 2)... there are two 10's sharing the output, which cuts down on IM distortion. 3)... the material used for the 10's is very light and very well damped as compared to paper or plastic -- which aids in both control and speed. 4) ... And since the lowest bass is being reproduced by the port, the 10's are not required to 'move' all that much. I've driven mine to ear blistering levels, and driver movement is barely discernable, visually or audibly. Use an SVS sub or two, cut at 50Hz, and its a grand sounding system. Simply fabulous. There have been NO basic improvements in horn speaker technology since the mid 1940s. O.K. No BASIC improvements. How about improvements in the materials utilized, the tighter tolerances inherent in modern day manufacturing, and extensive computer modeling used in design. You know, my RF7's have no internal bracing. None. Well, there is that 'Double Paned Window Bracing' (I think that's what it's called), and those rolled up wads of acoustic foam -- but I'll be dipped if they are actually doing anything. At any rate, compared to the bracing used in most high-end speakers, it is a complete joke. The RF7 fails the knuckle rap test. Fails it miserably. I know those panels are resonating. They must be in a bad way. But you know something? I can't hear it!! The RF7's should sound slow, fat, bloated, muddy, and boomy. There should be NO midrange, since the resonating panels should be mucking it up without mercy. Yet, that is not what I hear. The RF7's reproduce a tight, well-defined bass with no hint of boominess. The mids are clear and rich, and never do you sense they are being pinched off by the mid-bass or the resonances. They are tight and clear from top to bottom. How do we account for this? Am I going deaf? Or can we say that computer modeling enables engineers to properly compensate for the cabinet resonances in the crossover design, and at the same time factor in the remaining competing variables, which leads to a balanced, dandy sounding design? Is it fair that we can also deduce that better materials, and tighter tolerances during driver manufacture are also contributing factors? I know all the common responses. We have been down this road before. I'll be told that the anodized drivers are nothing revolutionary, and that you can't overcome the limitations of the cone, yada, yada, and yada. We just have to agree to disagree. And direct-radiator technology has yet to reach what horns were doing in 1945. So horns have no weaknesses, or inherent problems? Always superior to the DR in every situation or application. I'm sorry, but I'm just not buying into these arguments anymore. Besides, in spite of prevailing old hornie opinions -- the cone has made some progress ( ceramic/metal matrix ). A modern, high-quality compression driver is identical to one made in 1938 except that the field-coil magnet has been replaced by a permanent magnet and an inferior sounding titanium diaphragm is now often used instead of aluminum, titanium having better power handling. I always preferred the sound of titanium drivers to aluminum. What aspect of titanium is it that contributes to its inferiority? Aluminum hurts my ears. The Cornwall is an inherently better speaker than the RF-7. It only takes the woofer to 600hz, thus lowering distortion that occurs when a woofer is reproducing both bass and midrange. So, with this argument -- all three-ways ever made should sound better than the RF7. I mean, all three- ways have lower distortion than the RF7, so they must sound better. Cornwall...uses a dedicated horn midrange which gives lower distortion, better dynamics and better clarity. Additional crossover distortion, unevenness in the frequency response, and cabinet resonances non-withstanding. Besides, that dedicated horn midrange gives me a headache. The RF-7 takes the woofer up to around 2200hz, not the ideal way to make a speaker. Like the RB5 that goes up to 1900Hz but stomps everything up to the $2500 price point (including most multi-way designs like some of the Vandersteens, Paradigms, Magnapans, Bostons, etc). I for one have never liked the sound of most multi-driver designs. This is strictly my preference of course. There is just something about them that does not sound "right" to me. I have tried many times to like them -- but have always dropped back to a two-way. To my ears, two-ways just sound smoother and richer. The RF-7 is a much more compromised speaker; compromises to make the speaker cheaper to build... Thank God -- at least I can afford to buy them! I don't think the Heritage drivers have squat on the Reference line drivers. Sturdier cabinets, but that it as far as I can tell. ... and more fashionable in terms of what people like to look at nowadays: small, tall and narrow. Nice for home theater. Yep, I can set up my RF7's without a forklift. As a matter of fact, they actually fit through the front door, can be placed in my humble listening room -- and I still have room for a chair! The RFs have their fans and are decent speakers but are not up to the quality of the speakers designed by the company's founder, PWK. "Quality", such a subjective thing. I have better advice. Listen and compare before you buy, or you could be crying in your beer. Get the Cornwalls, if nothing else they'll hold their value... Really, you will have a collectible that you might not like to listen too, but can always use to store stuff inside of them. You can also sit and look at them -- reminding you how much they are "worth". ...who'll want RFs in a few years when some "newer, better" speaker has replaced them... Me. Keep them nice and don't drop them off the back of a truck. Don't run your vacuum cleaner into the bottom of them, don't let your cat hang off the drivers, and try to make sure your kid's head doesn't get stuck in one of the ports -- and I'll buy them. just like the Epics and Legends and the other lines that have come and gone at a dizzying pace. Earbleeders all I express some fact and some opinion. Ya think? ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> This message has been edited by deang on 05-28-2002 at 11:58 PM

i'm telling you unequivocally SVS quit playing with these little boxes and get a real sub ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

No, do not have the B&K anymore. I took a ride with it for a while and then sold it and bought a Bryston 3B-ST. This lasted about a month -- and then decided I just preferred the sound of tubes. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>