D-MAN

---------------- On 3/20/2004 10:14:01 PM Griffinator wrote: Yammy just started making 7-channel amps. ---------------- Don't know why they just recently would make a 7 channel when back in '96 Yamaha was making 8 channel receivers... DM

IMO, its rather more problematic than the "tall and skinny" recommended speaker placements which purposely avoid reflective sufaces as much as possible... Corner horns have a new bag of tricks for you to deal with. They can be a bear to tame in the "wrong" room... 1) In general, the dispersion characteristics of the midrange horn is MUCH wider than "normal" typically 90 degrees or more horizontal. This in itself, when placed in a corner will cause a great deal of reflectivity from the outside walls real close to the upper horn mouth(s). I would first tame that with absorbtion (I use Tube-Trap panels mounted vertically 3 or 4 per side spaced about 6 inches apart for that purpose, but as you remind me, there is a reflective strip in them too, along with the absorbtion, I think). I still regard it as mostly absorbtion. This will tend to clarify the soundstage and tighten imaging. Most of my panels are used on the side walls for that reason. 2) I have a couple of panels behind each speaker (or above, as it were) in the same corner at the top, touching the ceiling) on the front wall (i.e. facing the listening position). I also have one panel on the front wall between the speakers which also seems to "clarify" the apparent "depth" of the reproduced "soundstage". 3) The bass end of things is pretty much determined by the room dimensions and even the materials used in the wall construction. If it sounds overly boomy then some corner bass traps may be used in the BACK corners of the room. That's the end of my experience with it... There is a bonus to having corner horns that seems to make it all worthwile: they can do some things that are just plain SCARY good! Good luck! DM

In '64, I remember the Beatles album that had "I wanna hold your hand" was the first stereo recording that I remember hearing. Singing on one channel, instruments on the other. How's that! DM

Agreed. Not an environment suitable for Klipschorns. No wonder he wants to sell them... DM

John Albright is absolutely on the money, as usual. The K33-E is the best performer in Khorns for the money. I had to prove this to myself, and I did after spending about $900.00, all told. Other at-least-equally-performing alternatives will cost more (at least double). Some require mods to the Khorn cabinet as well as the crossover, so avoid all of the extra work; it really isn't worth it. What John said. DM

When I am done, "I don't know where I'll be, but I won't smell very good, that's for sure"... Stole that from "Airplane", of course. DM

My DIY Khorns are quite satisfying in this respect. They image at least as good as my (previous) KEF 4's, have a MUCH bigger soundstage (the entire end of the room, top to bottom, wall-to-wall + depth which exceeds the room dimensions), more extended "depth" and seem to actually "dissappear" with certain source material. I actually am quite happy with the DIY Khorns I have as far as soundstaging and depth which I had some experience based on the performance of the KEFs, which I previously thought had excellent soundstaging and frankly, they are never going back into my system (rosewood- any buyers?). I have always heard that horns image poorly and in the past, I find that may have BEEN true, but now I know from experience that poor imaging has more to do with the inadequacies of the room rather than the horns themselves. However, it seems that with corner horns the sound tends to "reflect" off of the side walls due to the proximity so that it tends to restrict the width of the soundstage to fit within the outside walls to a degree. This varies with source, but it seems to be a tendency. Some judicious room treatments can help to tame this tendency, but I can;t get it to completely go away. As far as depth; it exceeds my expectations. It definately goes well "beyond" the wall boundary. It goes back several "feet" behind the speakers. As my corners are only 13 ft apart, the center of the soundstage is full also. I have turned my horns to point more directly at the sweet spot than the "regular" top cabinet (when aligned with the bottom). This greatly helps the imaging and gives a more direct diaphram to ear route. One of my fav Cds is Telarc's "Fuare and Durufle: Requiems" which has a depth and soundstage "for days". Give it a shot. It is my "depth" and "soundstage" meter. P.S. I am using what I consider "good" gear which is capable of reproducing the nuances of a recording and also recommend using ALK crossovers for better response in that area. I have owned equipment that was not capable of producing a viable solid image, depth and soundstage so I didn't know what I was missing... DM

There will always be a discussion whenever the subject is amplifiers... and that is a good thing. However, endless rants without examples are pointless, for me anyway. I will happily consider recommendations from you guys, but I am specifically looking for hands-on (and name some names) experience with specific gear. Don't just tell me that SET is the way to go or not to go, I want specific details, like: 1) how you arrived at your opinion; test-driven or owned, etc... part of your system for how long, etc. 2) what other gear comparisons did you make 3) what the other system components are 4) cite some example source material and tell us what to listen for, etc. Present your case, or, unfortunately, others will most likely try to shoot it down (that don't make them right, either)... I really want a "review" from somebody whose opinion I have come to trust, not just a generality; I can get that from the trade mags... DM

Seems overpriced?

You know, I noticed the other day that my Khorns startled my cat, but it doesn't take cannons, more like classical when you can hear the performer(s) turn the page, etc. The small, quiet transients are what seem to get him, he jumps up and looks around the speaker to find that "mouse" or whatever he thinks made the sound, I suppose. Heck, I don't know what he's actually thinking - only that he jumps up and gets real interested in one of the Khorns... At any rate, I have never had a system capable of being anything but ignored by the cat, let alone scare the crap out of him (I'll avoid the 1812!)... However, CAT SCARING is a definate sales point for horns! The outbound CRAP portion of the cat scaring should be left out of the advertising in question except in the most serious audio publications, I would think! DM

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO "YELL" ON A COMPUTER. YOU CAN, HOWEVER, CHOOSE TO INTERPRET TYPED CASE ANY WAY YOU WANT. IF YOU CHOOSE TO LEND IT A MEANING THAT IT DOES NOT HAVE OR EMBODY THEN THAT IS SIMPLY UP TO YOU. IT DOES NOT CARRY ANY MORAL WEIGHT ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. IT IS UNESSENTIAL TO THE UNDERSTANDING, SO IT SHOULD BE IGNORED. dm

Where, oh where have all the "good" audio magazines gone? I used to get a kick out of "Fi", now defunct - unbelievably "high-end" audio, way over-the-top. I liked "Listener", heavy on tubes, more of a small book than a magazine; sort of lower-to-mid-level "high end". The only publication that I MIGHT trust a gear review is the British "Hi-Fi and Record Review". Keep in mind that the Brit's like a certain heavy-on-the-midrange sound, so their reviews reflect that. Come to think of it, some of the tube crowd likes that "british" sound, too, I think... DM

Yes, the drivers you have in the La Scala are a perfect match for the SpeakerLab K's. It looks like a good deal... DM

Please, all of you above, continue posting your experiences; As far as I'm concerned, I will take the word of somebody who has HANDS ON EXPERIENCE with the subject at hand over the flamer's any day! And as a general rule, if it gets flamed by certain people, then it REALLY must be true! DM

I wish he would use a bigger band. Sounds to much like a trio or a simple quartet too much of the time, IMO... DM

Marshall (guitar amps) uses the tube-pre, SS output topology in most of their guitar amps. It is a proven method to get the "classic tube sound" at reasonable or at least reduced cost. There would be one immediate advantage that I could see: 1) a warranty is available on new gear There is a drawback also: 1) tubes require periodic replacement DM

I would have to go with a grounding issue or bad PS cap in the amp... However, I am not clear on the "buzzing" - that usually indicates a loose piece or something vibrating that should not be. A "hum" on the otherhand is a continuous tone (typically accociated with the 60 cycle AC supply). I would guess that if it happens at amplifier idle, it is not a "buzz" but is rather a "hum". A buzz would only happen with sonic activity, not at idle, when there is not supposed to be any... Here are the usual symtoms of a ground loop/PS cap problem: 1) incessant 60 cycle hum, does not get "amplified"; is always the same volume of hum regardless of signal being sent to speaker, i.e., amplifier volume does not effect hum volume. 2) if it ONLY occurs on one speaker, then it points to power supply problem in amp (with a stereo supply) or a channel specific problem (probably still with the supply). Grounding issue would be apparent on both speakers at the same time. This can be checked by switching the speaker cables between the 2 speakers and see if it moves with the amp channel or is on both channels. 3) it is unlikely that the crossover or any speaker driver has anything to do with the hum in question. Also, it is unlikely that the hum is introduced by AC line hash or EMI on the cabling. I would go with the bad amp channel power supply cap or a ground loop problem. Try a 2-prong AC adapter on the amp power cable and "float" your system; I have to that with my pre-amp. DM

Gotta disagree, I would rather see all that sort of stuff right here. This is the perfect place for it. I'm here to learn new stuff. I want to know what certain people think about the "hobby" in all of its various forms, EXACTLY like building amps, speakers, horns and the like. I've learned more here than I have from reading books, some of this stuff simply AIN'T in no book! I want to know who is who; who can fix my amp if it breaks, who knows about crossovers, who should I ask about what SET kit to buy, etc. Part of this hobby is SHARING... That is the core of what the hobby and music is all about... Go for it, tell us what you got! DM

Here is my short version of clipping: Clipping does not just effect the high frequencies, it will be plainly heard on all of the drivers in question. A clipped signal has a large flattened (truncated)extended peak which looks virtually like a plateau, with steep shoulders therefore the power available is higher than expected (its at maximum or beyong its rating) at all frequencies. Whereas it still alternates in current, the flattening peaks are like applying short bursts of DC for the length of the cycle in question. As crossovers cannot deal with DC they tend to pass it on to the drivers. The tweeters tend to go first in that high frequency power is respectively small compared to the current required for low frequencies, and they are not made to take very much wattage in comparison to woofers, etc. This is what fries out speaker voice coils, they are not made to be extended and held there by steady current. This is a simplified explanation, but it should get the point across. It should also be remembered that an amp pushed to the point of clipping is literally tapping out the power supply and giving it to the speaker; it is being pushed beyond its safe operational parameters. Distortion is extreme (forming most of the signal) and the generation of resultant harmonics and such are also fed directly to the speaker. All in all bad things can happen with high powered amps driven in to clipping. I have heard of some amps frying, and while they do it they take out the speakers. All in a single POP. Then it will probably smell bad and cost lots of money. It is a good idea to not overdrive the amp whether the speakers "can take it" or not. Short bursts of clipping can occur without permanent damage, but if you find yourself routinely clipping, then you need a more powerful amp. DM

I would guess that the guts alone in working condition are worth about $500 bucks or so. To veneer the cabs, you would have to fill in the gouges with wood putty, as thin veneer will "follow" the mounting surface. Shiny finishes will then reflect the imperfections of the surface and look like dimples or such. A dull finish may look ok. DM

Transports are a dime-a-dozen, but where the rubber meets the road is in the DAC. That is where all of the manufacturing expense lies in a cd player of any quality. The quality of the DAC is the deciding factor in any digital source. I would also expect that a dedicated cd player would be of higher quality than a dvd player doing "double duty". Also stay away from "changers" as they have weak and/or noisy transports and typically less than adequate DACs. DM

Sheesh, dude, get some good speakers that make CRICKETS sound like CRICKETS! DM

Heretic, It does seem a little odd, now that you mention it... Maybe I don't understand how this forum thing works, but it seems to me that the posts in question are really out-of-nowhere, sort of like a continuation of some argument that we only get to see portions of and doesn't even have anything to do with the subject at hand. Am I missing something? DM

Well, clu, you certainly do not come to mind when I think of name-callers... DM

Punish the many for the failures of the few... Where have I seen this before?... Oh, yeah: when I was in boot camp! Well, this approach is really not going to work for an ongoing forum. Therefore, my conclusion is that the thing is possibly on its way out. I was pondering about the business concepts behind a company-based open internet forum and the actual value gained vs. the expenses incurred. I had assumed that it had to do with the adage that "any publicity is good publicity" - in that it doesn't matter about what is said, good or bad as long as your company (or product)gets named. Whether good or bad, being talked about is always a good thing, and indicates name and product recognition at the very least. It does have market research value, can be used to indicate, anticipate and predict trends in the marketplace, etc., and the demographics of the "users" are provided virtually cost free. It can also provide a unique advertising venue in a cost effective manner. Whereas I regard certain forum members as immature time-wasters, I do not regard their respective indiscretions as warranting the shutdown. Is this just a slapdown example or beginning of the end? If the culprit(s) in question cannot be banished (which they can by email address), then there is no workable solution to the problem of "fighting". If the forum software is not capable of doing just that as it is, then there is money required to have it modified to do so. It is, after all, KlipschCO's financial investment. If it was my system, which would I choose? Depends on whether I want to keep it long-term or not... DM