mikebse2a3

Yes meagain I would rather the Behringer had a different color display and a little better visability when slightly of axis of it's display but eventually you should get to a point where it is setup and left alone. It also has 64 stored memory presets also which is very important when trying different EQ adjustment to see which sounds best. Let me say to begin with I'm not familiar with the Alesis so I have no personnel experience to offer on it and so how it would compare to the Behringer I can't say. I will say whatever EQ you have I believe you will also need a Very Good Resolution RTA (I personally believe the Behringer is worth its price just for the 1/6 Octave RTA alone. It also helps to look at it when you hear audible problems because by looking at the RTA it can assist you in seeing what Frequencies are actively involved when you do hear the problems.) to assist in being able to see where some of your problem areas are and whether your adjustments are the correct ones. It will surprise you where some problem frequencies are and If your only option is to just listen and tweak the EQ then I believe it would be very hard if not impossible to get the best possible EQ setup. So far the best setups in each room I've used the EQ in has required slight adjustments of a few GEQ 1/3 octave Filters and at least 1 PEQ Filter (larger room) and a small room required 2 PEQ Filters to sound its best. Actually after using the Behringer 1/3 Octave EQ and the PEQ Parametric EQ of the Behringer I would place more importance on the Parametric EQ as the most helpfull at getting to some of the real problem areas. In general the smallest adjustment and the least adjustments is the best way to use an EQ and trying to correct every problem that a RTA shows will usually lead to sonic disappointment because even a good EQ has its limitations in what it can improve because problems like wall reflections are actually a problem in the Time Domain which RTAs can't display and these types of EQs can't for the most part correct for to help improve the sound. Instead some of the colorations should be treated with setup and room design and acoustical treatments. Actually in an ideal world Room treatments (Bass Traps, Absorption and Diffusion "which is much needed in most rooms") used properly(if not used properly even they can actually degrade the sound) should be first but reality for most is room treatments won't be accepted in a lot of listening rooms and they can be very costly as well and even in some of the better rooms I have found an EQ to be of some real benefit even with these treatments. mike[]

Hello meagain I'm the person Coytee is referring to above. There are some things I would like to mention to you after reading some of this thread. The Behringer DEQ2496 is what I used at Coytee and it includes a 31-band graphic EQ, a 10-band Parametric EQ(very helpfull). It also very importantly includes a 61-band real-time FFT analyzer with an Auto Eq feature. To me the Auto Eq will get you in the ball park but should usually be tweeked with good judgement after you listen to the results from its settings. The truth is the room/speaker is an inseperateable system. What we hear will always be a result of this combined system. Each room/speaker combination is unique and we have to work with that unique situation in the real world. One experience of mine that I've had similar to yours is Khorns seperated by approx. 12' . This dimension and the timing of the wall reflections allows coloration in the upper bass and lower midrange and I like you have experimented with sealing the Khorns to the corners. I found in that situation that sealing only the vertical tailboard was very good but if I also sealed the horizontal top piece then I definitly developed audible colorations in the mid-bass and midrange areas you have described. Basically by working with the sealing to the corners I was able to deal with some of my unique room problems. We are more sensitive to colorations in the midrange(vocals especially) than any other area of the frequency spectrum and unfortunatly small room dimensions create more audible problems than larger room dimensions. That being said I will also say I have heard Khorns in at least 8 different sized rooms from small to pretty large and every one had some colorations but the simple fact is larger rooms dimensions for the most part allow less coloration to become a problem. I've used the Behringer in 3 totally different room sizes from small to large with all showing an improvement wich is mostly described as an improvement in clarity, naturalness and realism. The benefit of something like the Behringer when used wisely is it can make improvements in any system I've had it in but if misused your problems can get worse so its important to be willing to learn what a EQ can and can't help to actually improve your sound with one. Of course good equipment is important but the truth is most people get on the Expensive Equipment Merry Go Round when the room/speaker is what really needs to be improved. My suggestions are: (1) Make sure all equipment is working properly(crossovers/drivers) and installed correctly(polarity correct from drivers/crossovers to amp)(experiment with the seals to the corners for your unique room also). I would also say in my experience Khorns have always worked best in rectangular rooms when they are setup on the longest dimesion(Coloration and Clarity has always improved each time). (2) Once good quality equipment is acheived( This doesn't necessarly mean expensive. I recently rebuilt a Scott 222C for a friend with Khorns who also has McIntosh MC30s and a Marantz 8B and just this week a McIntosh MC2000 and all I can say is the Scott was very special and definitly makes you wonder why we would spend multi thousands when great sound for a few hundred can be had). The weakest Link in the sound chain is the room once good speakers and equipment are acheived. My Experience is good room with modest equipment/speakers will beat a poor room with great equipment and speakers anytime. (3) If Great sound is your goal then the Room must at some point be addressed whether you are using Khorns or any other speakers and My Own Experience also says most systems can benefit from a good EQ with wise adjustments being made. In other words we need a good room as much as we need good equipment and speakers because they all work together for the final quality of sound we hear. mike[] Edit: I also wanted to suggest you get a test CD like Stereophile Test CD 2 STPH 004-2 or one of my favorites is Chesky's The Ultimate Demonstration Disc UD95 The musical tracks are very well recorded and should sound very natural as well as the Vocals. These test Cd's are helpfull for checking for problems with wiring/polarity and other issue with setups with there in phase out of phase test. When all is wired correctly you should have very good center image on the in phase test from the low freq. to the high freq range and if not your wiring from crossover to drivers or amp could be out of polarity or driver/crossover problems or possibly even very early wall reflections especially in the higher frequencies causing problems. Also I bought my Behringer DEQ2496 and Test Mic ECM8000 from The Guitar Center with a 30 day return option which proved to be unncessary because within about 30 minutes I new I would be keeping it with the improvements it was giving me and to actually use it at its best takes some trial and error because there is a learning curve to using all the features of this unit.

Sorry Coytee I didn't mean to confuse anyone so I edited it in my previous post. I just got in a hurry and punched in the wrong numbers. Anyway like I said have fun those should be two great amps to compare! mike[]

Hi Coytee My apologies if I'm repeating something someone has already suggested in earlier post but I've got to go Christmas Shopping and haven't got time to look at all the post. My first question would be: Did you find out if the Niles Speaker Selector Box has common Ground(or - speaker connections)? The DBX Amp should not be used with a selector box that doesn't isolate all speaker connections from each other. This could be the reason the DBX Amp goes into protection mode when you start trying to get more power from it. I suggest going back to a basic setup. To test this just hook the DBX straight to the speakers(NO Niles Switchbox) and see if you can get higher volume levels and everything working normal with no shutdown activation. Then try setting the DBX Input Level Controls for the quitest noise floor when no music is playing. I really don't see anything your doing at the peach/inputs of the amps causing the DBX to go into protection mode except for possibly a DC offset from the preamp which if in the above test of not using the Niles Switchbox everything works fine then the preamp wouldn't be the problem. By the way the MC2002 your getting if I remember correctly has an input sensitivity of 2.5volt (The MC2000 or MC2102 has a selectable input sensitivity of 1.5v or 2.5v and the other one is fixed at 2.5v and I'm not sure which one is the switchable one) so this should work really well when it comes to suppressing any noise from upstream componets(preamp). Edit: Hey Coytee the MC30's should also be very quite. I have a friend with the MC30's/ Cary SLP98L/ Klipschorns and at first he had some audible noise in his system but after switching to different 6SN7 tubes (Some Versions produce more noise than others) in his SLP98L his system is very quite. You have to put your ear within a few inches of the tweeter to even hear any hiss at all. The MC30's definitly showed the benefits of tube rolling in his system which with the best combination of tubes took his system from good to great and actually some of the more sought after tubes he tried in his MC30s wasn't as good in his system as some lesser sought after brands. By the way he is getting an MC2000 next week so it will be interesting to hear it in comparison to his MC30s. Man are you going to have fun MC30s and MC2102 can't wait to see what you think about these units! mike[]

Hey Coytee Looks like he is back again http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5840235896&ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:US:1 mike[]

I'm lucky to have a girlfriend who loves music and good sound. Several times to test myself when I believe I have made some audible improvement I will just have her sit and listen (She is unaware of what improvements I believe I have made) then I'll ask her what did you notice if any difference. On more than one occasion she has described the same improvement in sound that I perceived. The good thing is she isn't into the equipment for her its all about the music. mike[]

Good Info DeanG When choosing the capacitors and other audio related componets and equipment I choose to spend my money for mostly based on Quality of Materials, Design and Construction and Price and Listening Observations and pay very little attention to some mystic advertising claims otherwise. mike

Yes Al Kind of reminds me of years ago when Amplifier Designers where all pushing for smaller and smaller IM and THD distortion figures thinking less was better while at the same time not knowing that some where acheiving this at the expense of what later became known as increased TIM distortion. If it measures bad but sounds good then we aren't measuring all the important things that matter! OR If it measures good but sounds bad then we aren't measuring all the important things that matter! mike[]

Al I agree within FamilyTypes of Dielectric Materials used in Capacitors there may be less difference in performance measurable and audible. I also agree that just because the motor run caps are speced at 60Hz in itself doesn't mean they aren't suitable for use in crossovers. I do wonder though if the effect we are describing as Dielectric Absorption isn't also affected by how the Capacitor is Wound/Layered and the Makeup of the Plate Material and the way the Terminal Leads are attached. I believe Dean and Shawn brought up some of these factors. I guess to sum up my thinking on this I believe standard test we see used on capacitors doesn't show the information we need to explain what some perceive as audible differences in capacitors. I believe the reason there is a difference in the way capacitors sound will be found in the way the capacitor releases it's (Stored Memory/Dielectric Absortion) of the musical signal over time and to hope to see and understand this would require measurement that display in the Time Domain the release of this stored energy. Guys I really appreciate the information and ideas shared so far. mike[]

First efzauner thanks for posting that paper which was very informing. Al K. I agree and just thinking off the top of my head, I believe to learn anything new about how the Dielectric Absorption is affecting a circuit that we would be interested in we would need to setup a test for the capacitors under similar circumstances as we would use them. One test would setup the capacitor say for circuits like AC-Coupling for an Audio Amplifier. A Second test could look at capacitors as used in a Speaker Crossover circuit. In the tests used in the above article and others I've read they are basically charging the capacitor with a DC voltage and then shorting the capacitor for a period of time and then releasing the short and watching the voltage climb due to the dielectric releasing its stored energy. This test really doesn't look at how the Capacitor would behave under the circuit conditions we are using them. For the purpose we use the capacitors in the two test situations I've mentioned above the capacitor is passing a Musical Transient type Signal and due to circuit designs the output from the Capacitor is never shorted but instead sees impedances of say 8ohm for the Crossover Circuit and much higher impedances for the AC Coupling in Amplifier Circuits. I believe the test needs to watch what happens to an Impulse Type Test Signal over Time(ETF Computer program?) with the capacitor in a test circuit setup similar to how it will be used normally say in like the two situations mentioned above. Now the hard part, How would we do this? I've got some thinking to do now!! One thing seems certain to me and thats if a capacitor has trouble at DC voltages then I believe the situation would only get worse with Transient type AC Signals(Music) at the audible frequencies. mike[]

Bob seems to me when you measure the ESR of a capacitor (as is normally displayed on a Meter) you are only seeing one aspect of that capacitor's quality. What you don't see is what is happening to the signal over Time as the Dielectric Absorption(Dielectric Memory) is imposing itself at a later time on the signal that is passing through the Capacitor. Its like making a standard Frequency Response Measurement on a Loudspeaker that doesn't take into account the Time Factor of that measurement. To get a complete picture of the frequency response you need to show frequency response based on a Time Scale to see a more complete picture of what is actually happening to a signal in time. You know Bob you made me think of something. If we had a perfect capacitor that showed Zero ESR then I think yes there would be no need to measure any other factor(excepting capacitance value) because to pass the signal completely with no deterioation everything would have to be perfect(ie: no delay/interferance to the signal as it passes through the capacitor). Its like the Loudspeaker example in If we measured a loudspeaker with a perfect frequency response then all the other variables(ie: Energy Storage, Disapation and Timing Errors) could not exist. Its kind of reminds me of reading something PWK said about if he could produce a 100% Efficient Speaker. I think if a speaker was 100% efficient all things(ie:amplitude, frequency & phase would have to be correct. Eric and Dean and Others I'm sorry if this is a subject your tired of and I sure don't want to cause any arguing because everyone has a wright to their opinion and should choose to spend their money on whatever seems to be of value to them whether its Speakers, Amplifiers, Wire or Whatever. I just believe their is a reason why I believe Capacitors, Wires and Other Things make a difference in sound and eventually measurements that corelate with how we hear will be found that will show why we have a perception of these differences in sound. Happy Thanksgiving Everyone! mike[]

More Capacitor Info mike

I thought I would post this information for those who might be interested since I haven't really seen it talked about much when questions about what is the best capacitor to use are asked. I believe one of the important answers might be in the quality of the dielectric as it relates to the dielectric absorption qualities of different materials used in capacitors. This seems to correlate with what I perceive about different types of capacitors. If a capacitor's dielectric is bad about storing and releasing energy in time well after the orginal musical signal has passed then that residual energy will interfere or mask later musical signals passing through the capacitor. To me this is audible as a lack of clarity especially at higher frequencies. I also seem to notice the most differences in interconnects and speakerwires at the higher audible frequencies in the form of better or worse clarity which is due I believe to many factors including dielectric absorption. Again I believe this lack of clarity could be due to the musical signal being smeared and distorted in time due to the construction and materials used in the wire. I would also like to mention one of the largest problems we face when it comes to Clarity(AT ALL AUDIBLE FREQUENCIES) is the Distortation of the Orginal Musical Signal due again to the interferance by the rooms Time Delayed Reflections causing a masking and distortion of later musical signal events. Also as I mentioned in another thread when clarity is improved I also seem to notice an improvement in dynamics. I know some will disagree especially about wire but simple measurements of resistance, capacitance and inductance definitly doesn't tell us all we need to know. mike[]

Way To Go Klipsch!!!! This is Long Overdue Exposure for the Heritage Line and the Heritage of Klipsch as a Company! Now to really Hook People lets Get A Good Dealer Network Going so that When People Hear Them they will NEVER BE SATISFIED TILL THEY OWN THEM!!! One Listen to the KLIPSCHORN in a Good Setup/Room has hooked many of us for LIFE!!! mike[]

YES! DeanG I would love to hear it also!! mike[]

LOL mike[]

This was really uncalled for, Marvel. Actually Marvel made a good point!! Parrot Responces: Gainclone is for the DIY type: "Look what I just did! I built an amp and I did it all by myself! And look at how little it is!" Strictly for the Gee willikers crowd at a high school science fair. What do you know? You don't even like CROWN. How could it be excellent if it wasn't even as good as a SET amp, which is the single worst topology amp that there is? Erik has been replaced by an Erikclone amp. I remember when you used to post sensible things. Perhaps the doctors mixed up your meds? Or maybe it's that bad guy you're running around with, you know, the guy who taught you all about fake surround sound and drove you to headphones. So Parrot exactly what are you trying to accomplish with these type of responces? mike

D-Man said: I probably mentioned this before, but the dynamic range seems to be more "extreme" in both directions than I am used to, that is, softer (further away) is softer and increases in dynamics are more loud. It's sort of a roller coaster ride. -------------------------------------------------------------------- I would love to see a TDS or ETF measurement of the new Mid/High driver with the Crossover you are using. It wouldn't surprise me if the feeling of increased dynamics is a result of the the Mid and High driver working together so well because of the coaxial build and the potential for them being in proper Time Alignment. Have you ever noticed that an improvement in clarity is also noticed along with an improvement in dynamics? I have noticed this in Electronics and Speakers and if you think about it this should be the result we would perceive as Transients happen in the proper Time and the Quite passages are more defined by Transients ending when they should. mike[]

DrWho and others its Richard C. Heyser and not " Heiser" for anyone looking to study his Works. I agree with 6foot8 in that there are other weak links that are of equal or greater importance. Ideally we would preserve Time and Frequency Amplitude response as accurately as possible in the Speaker. The orginal poster started out with a search for time delay with the idea of the Jubilee's use of it and its contribution to the sound he heard. The reason I pointed out other Time Delay Problems created by the Room/Speaker System interaction and how we perceive the quality of the sound as a result is of greater importance and detriment to the reproduction of sound in my opinion than any delay in the Khorn Design or Jubilee for that matter. I agree the time is approaching to where we can properly and economically deal with these time delay issues within certain listening window constraints but anyone who is worried about the Time Delay in say the Khorn but doesn't deal with the control of the Time Delay Interferance from Reflections in the Listening Room isn't understanding the Weakest Link in the Reproduction Chain once a reasonable quality of equipment has been installed. If we are really serious about getting better sound and especially for the money spent to acheive that then I would advise everyone to expand your knowledge of How we perceive Sound and especially the effect the Room/System Integration has on that Perception. For Anyone Interested Here Are Some Links to articles that will help to understand the effects of Time Delay of Reflections in a Room and how we might perceive it: Click here: RPG Diffusor Systems, Inc. Click here: Acoustic Treatment and Soundproofing for High End Audio Applications Thanks to dragonfyr for bringing my attention to this site! You can become a member and read some of the most current articles/papers from people who are at the forefront of researching and dealing with many important issues for Sound Production and Reproduction. Click here: Syn-Aud-Con Home Page Also I would consider "Time Delay Spectrometry by Richard C. Heyser" a must read for anyone who wants to really understand the importance of measuring and understanding Time Delay as it relates to why we might hear problems that aren't revealed by our previous measurement methods. And Again "Sound System Engineering by Don Davis and Carolyn Davis" mike[] Edit: Also if you want to know what PWK thought about this subject at least in 1972 then look at his paper on "Delay Effects in Loudspeakers" by Paul W. Klipsch orginally published in The Audio Engineering Society , Vol. 20, No. 8 , October 1972 and also reprinted in "Audio Papers" which is a collection of papers which were reprinted by Klipsch and Associates I know with time people's understanding of the importance of things change and in reading PWK's papers you will see as Time and Progress moved on things have to be reexamined with your new found understanding as to there importance and I believe PWK showed this openness of thought when you read a paper such as Time Delay In Speakers and he acknowledges work By others such as Heyser's recent work which he made notes of as from Some of Heyser's Published Papers and Personal Communication with Heyser.

Ah! if it was only so easy as to add time delay. Adjusting for time delay on speakers with drivers mounted in different Vertical and Horizontal planes faces very real limitations because any correction adjustment you make will only be good for a certain listening axis. If you move off that axis you will loose the time alignment you have just made. Some manufactures deal with this by using coaxially mounted drivers and their crossovers being adjusted into time alignment although most are still comprimised designs due to the fact that the coaxially mounted drivers just cover the mid/high freq. ranges and they are added to low frequency drivers mounted in different vertical planes. These will have a very defined listening window in which the time alignment is acceptable. The orginal Quad 63 and its later versions if I remember correctly might be one of the few speakers that had good time alignment in both its vertical and horizontal listening axis's. If I remember correctly also there was a Professional Monitor with 15" woofer with a coaxially mounted Horn that was designed with good time alignment. anyway one sight you can read about some of this is Click here: THIEL Technical Information you might also check out www.vandersteen.com By the way there are other time delays that you should be concerned with and those are created by the reflections from the walls/floor/ceiling that reach you within a 20ms to 30ms time frame after the first arrival from the speaker has reached you. These create very audible problems with clarity, imaging and tonal balance. Some books that describe the importance of this are; Sound System Engineering by Don Davis and Carolyn Davis The Master Handbook of Acoustics by F. Alton Everest mike[]

Yes it does show up on the post but if I try to open it, my Window Picture and Fax Viewer opens with no picture. Maybe I don't have something setup correctly with my computer for gif files. It also want open with Adobe Photoshop. Computers!! love and hate them! Anyway I was able to do a "capture picture" and printed it off. THANKS I have to say D-MAN I have been very doubtfull of trying to cover the range of 400Hz to 20KHz with one driver due to diaphram mass rolloff problems and loss of transient response from diaphram mass at the higher frequencies. This coaxil design looks like just what was needed for a really good MOD option for the standard KHorn. The potential to improve the Vertical and Horizontal polar response and time response of the Midrange/Tweeter and the possible improvement that brings also with room/speaker interaction really has my interest up! mike[]

Thanks for the woodhorn link D-MAN. Really Nice!! For some reason I can't open giff file(I've ran into this problem before) to see the response you posted. mike[]

I also didn't personally know Lynnm but I did like reading his post. My Father, Two Uncles and a Cousin all died from Lung Cancer so I've seen first hand how terrible some cancers can be. My view of Death has changed since then and I now see the mercy which Death brings to those suffering from such an illness. I see things as Lynnm said and Intend to enjoy Life to its fullest with my true friends and family! May GOD give Peace and Comfort to his Loved Ones!!! mike[ip]

Hey D-MAN forgot to ask if you don't mind where can we buy these and roughly how much do they cost. mike[]

D-MAN you have my interest!!! I will be following your impressions as time goes by. The BMS4590 sure looks good from the specs. and from your description of the sound. This info might have been posted before but I thought some might want to see the Technical Specs. and Measurements. mike[] bms-4590.pdf