mikebse2a3
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Posts posted by mikebse2a3
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Thought it would be helpful to post here on the klipsch forum in case anyone here is on the list.
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NOTE: I’ve reposted this from an old thread of mine here in case anyone uses one of these units.
EV DX38 comparison to EV DC-One to demonstrate that both units parameter set points respond identical to each other.
For any DSP Active Crossover users that might be interested in either unit here are some test comparison showing how these units perform very close to each other on the same (KHJ-K402/TAD4002) program settings.
The EV DX38 = Red Curve
The EV DC-One = Blue Curve
Test between my units show the EV DC-One has about 0.7db to 0.9db more sensitivity/gain across the frequency spectrum shown.
One other observation is an insignificant slight difference in the 32Hz PEQ filter's actual center frequency with the (EV DC-One = 32.2Hz) and the (EV DX38 = 31.8Hz).
miketn
Here are the LF Channels comparison:
Here are the HF Output Channels comparison.
The EV DX38 = Red Curve
The EV DC-One = Blue Curve
miketn
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I thought it might be helpful to simplify for demonstration purposes to just do the simulations of the (EV DX38 LOSLV)/(Xilica XP/XD 4080 Lo-Shelf) filters to demonstrate how well the parameters changes in the Xilica match the EV when implemented.
miketn
EV DX38: LOSLV (FREQ: 5.4K), (Q/Slope: 12), (Level db: -10)
Xilica: Lo-Shelf (FREQ: 4200Hz), (1.80 Oct), (Q=0.751), (Level -10.00dB)
NOTE: Both of the LOSLV/Lo-Shelf filters combined in this comparison below.
EV DX38: LOSLV (FREQ: 2.5K), (Q/Slope: 12), (Level db: -1)
Xilica: Lo-Shelf (FREQ: 2500Hz), (1.80 Oct), (Q=0.751), (Level -1.00dB)
EV DX38: LOSLV (FREQ: 5.4K), (Q/Slope: 12), (Level db: -10)
Xilica: Lo-Shelf (FREQ: 4200Hz), (1.80 Oct), (Q=0.751), (Level -10.00dB)
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Roy’s Underground {Jubilee with K402 & TAD 4002 v1.0 (8/19/2008)} parameter settings from EV DX38 program and the resulting curves in the Race Editor Software for the EV DX38.
miketn
NOTE: The required Lo-Shelf parameter changes necessary for the Xilica XP/XD-4080 DSP output curve simulation to match Roy’s original EV DX38 output curve simulation.
EV DX38: LOSLV (FREQ: 2.5K), (Q/Slope: 12), (Level db: -1)
Xilica: Lo-Shelf (FREQ: 2500Hz), (1.80 Oct), (Q=0.751), (Level -1.00dB)
EV DX38: LOSLV (FREQ: 5.4K), (Q/Slope: 12), (Level db: -10)
Xilica: Lo-Shelf (FREQ: 4200Hz), (1.80 Oct), (Q=0.751), (Level -10.00dB)
Note: Tap on the images to enlarge for point to point comparison and even though the scale parameters are displayed differently a careful point to point comparisons will show the exact matching of the output curves from the EV DX38 and Xilica XP/XD 4080 of the two programs with these Lo-Shelf parameter changes in the Xilica XP/XD 4080 from Roy’s original EV DX38 parameters.
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20 hours ago, MMurg said:
The text in red show that the slope can be defined as s (slope factor) or d (slope in dB per octave). Using one or the other effects how the filter frequency is defined (center or corner). So, the conversion I proposed above when coming from an EV setting using dB/Octave is likely not that simple. While I think the conversion from slope factor to Q and vice versa is likely correct, it is likely not useful to go from EV slope settings to Xilica settings for shelf filters without more information. 😞
I will try to post more information as time allows but I will add this observation I made during the programming experimentations of the Lo-Shelf Filters from the EV-DX38/EV DC-One units to the Xilica XD4080 using there editor software for response curve simulations.
miketn
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On 8/31/2023 at 2:36 PM, babadono said:
@mikebse2a3 where are the human readable settings? Seems like they should be easier to locate. Perhaps we could "pin" them somewheres....
Yes it seems that they have been scattered around the forum from time to time and maybe they can be gathered again and pinned somewhere if Roy is OK with that.
I also caution everyone that not all Manufactures DSP respond exactly the same to the same settings and should be taken into account when transferring settings made on one brand/model into a different brand/model.
For example the EV DX38 and EV DC-One respond exactly the same to the same settings but settings derived on them will not directly transfer to the Xilica models which require different parameters for the Shelv Filters to have an equivalent output signals desired.
miketn
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On 7/30/2023 at 9:25 PM, Chief bonehead said:
Patience….
I bet they will be awesome especially with Heritage… 👍🙂
Spotted this on a facebook post for those interested…
miketn
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@babadono The room looks great…!!!
I’m curious about your corner treatments behind the Jubs as far as did they come with the wood reflective front or is that something you did yourself and what difference did you experience if any from your earlier all absorptive panels versus these combination absorptive-diffusive/reflective panels in the corner locations..?
miketn 🙂
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14 hours ago, babadono said:
The 510 is a CD horn is that why it needs so much EQ?
I like to see it as the CD horns are much less colored due to even polars and as a result of following the compression drivers natural response requires electrical balancing for flat response on axis and off axis.
Horns with collapsing polars maintain on axis balance at the cost of off-axis balance by the beaming as frequencies increase. They becoming more colored as the listener moves off axis. There is no way to have a flat balanced response both on and off axis because either the vertical and/or horizontal polars are collapsing with frequency.
miketn
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On 7/21/2023 at 12:35 PM, babadono said:
I hope some of the people that know this are still around or check in from time to time. I want to put together a 2 way LaScala as a center between my Jubilees. What driver should I use on the 510 horn? It has to handle 500Hz on up. K 691 good enough? Anything better? Any speculation on how line up the 510 to get it close to time align with the 'Scala bass horn?
I could run it active with separate amps but I wanted to start with just a passive.
@babadono is the reason you want a dedicated center channel for surround channel purposes or are you wanting to run a PWK 2PH3 type system?
The reason I ask is based on when I ran PWK 2PH3 systems using Klipschorns with Klipsch Belle Center Channel there are drawbacks and benefits.
The benefit of filling in a perceived recessed hole in center imaging due to widespread L/R Klipschorns versus listener position was the most notable. In these situations I really liked the overall improvement in sound and imaging reproduction.
The drawback was in setups where the spread between L/R Klipschorns were typical relative to listener location and not suffering from the hole in the middle imaging effect. I actually feel the negative compromises due to the the perceived sound differences between the Klipschorn versus Klipsch Belle which was most notable due to the lower physical height of the Klipsch Belle which creates distortion of the imaging reproduction in height. Obviously I could have raised the height of the Klipsch Belle with a stand but I wouldn’t have liked the looks and IMHO unless someone perceives a recessed hole in the middle image effect there wasn’t IMHO a worthwhile benefit in sound reproduction speaking from my experiences.
Basically unless the center speaker is the same as the flanking speakers in a L+C+R array you already have some compromise and then the question becomes does the compromises versus benefits make a worth while perceived improvement.
miketn
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1 hour ago, KT88 said:
I brought my Yamaha DSP in 2009 to the Hope UJ seminar conducted by Roy. We compared it with the DX38. I must say that I and some others liked the Yamaha very much.
Your Yamaha DSP is excellent and no need to switch to a DX38
miketn
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1 hour ago, KT88 said:
On the other hand the Jensen ISO MAX, recommended by babadono, may have very good quality but all I could find is a product which reduces the signal from +4 dBu to consumer level. Only I need a device which does not reduce the voltage to feed my amps RCA input because the source, my preamp, also is on RCA voltage level.
Heinz ….. I often use the PI-2XX which has a 1:1 ratio transformer instead of the PC-2XR with it’s 4:1 ratio transformer when I want to maintain my signal level instead of reducing it.
The PI-2XX can be configured with many types of input/output connectors but I prefer to use the standard XLR IN/OUT connectors and then use adapter cables. By doing this it allows me to use it with Balanced Equipment as well as Unbalanced Input/Output Equipment whereas if you order it with for example RCA Unbalanced Output Connectors you can’t use it optimally with Balanced Input Equipment with that configuration.
https://www.jensen-transformers.com/product/pi-2xx/
https://www.jensen-transformers.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/PI-2XX-User-Guide.pdf
NOTE: It is very important to limit the Output Cables to less than 1m (3ft) and adapter cables have to be made correctly (see below highlighted areas of the user guide)..!!!
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I really like these Spade Terminals for the (Celestion Axi 2050) which are spring loaded and give a very firm large contact area but easily removed connection.
miketn
{NOTE: THESE ARE BRASS !!!}
{NOTE: These are COPPER>>!!!}
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I prefer stainless steel Allen Head set screws with Cut point end.
30mm length when screwed by hand all the way into the Celestion Axi 2050 will leave about 17mm for mounting to the K402 horn (Second Generation).
miketn
Washers, Lock washers and nuts I also use when mounting.
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9 hours ago, KT88 said:
Did you determine the optimal points of the distance of the speakers to each other and to the listener in your room experimentally, e.g. by moving the speaker and the listening position or with a calculation formula into which you enter all data of the room and whose answer shows the optimal points?
Heinz, ….. I use empirical methods relying on listening experiences combined with some test recordings that have proved extremely helpful. Whether it’s placing loudspeakers/listener or acoustical treatments the complexity ultimately requires listening to verify the results..!!!
Heinz….. I haven’t found any measurements programs or calculation program/formulas that can be trusted to give you the optimal points when setting up a system in a room. While they can be helpful tools in some ways they can also easily send you in the wrong directions if you don’t understand their limitations and because they simply don’t take into account all the combined factors involved in optimizing the Loudspeaker/Room/Listener integration.
miketn
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2 hours ago, KT88 said:
To be clear, Mike, these SBIR points are not general? It is not a standard distance of the speakers, but it is related to your specific room and its dimensions?
Heinz,
SBIR (Speaker Boundary Interference Response) as well as LBIR (Listener Boundary Interference Response) are a situation created by the physical distance of the Speaker (SBIR) or Listener (LBIR) to all room boundaries (ie: Walls,Ceiling,Floor) and can be calculated/correlated to certain Frequency Wavelengths. Basically the Reflections create audibly constructive (SPL Peaks) and destructive (SPL Dips/Nulls) that are experienced by the listeners. In the (~20Hz to ~300Hz region) the effect is at its strongest in typical home listening rooms. While this is experienced in practically all home listening rooms there are methods available to minimize the interference as well as to use it in beneficial ways when dealing with the rooms unique acoustical standing waves/room modes issues we all have.
I believe it helps to think of early boundary reflections especially as imaginary loudspeakers that in reality act as real loudspeakers that are generally a somewhat distorted version of the loudspeaker that generates them. They have Frequency, Timing and SPL distortions that when audibly combined with the Loudspeakers Direct Response at the listener will make or break the reproduction from the system as experienced by the listener. It’s the Listening Room Sound being imposed on top of the Loudspeakers Sound. If we imagine that we had created the Perfect Loudspeaker and then as we place it in the room (ie: with it’s Boundaries and Acoustical Properties) the room’s reflections/sound will be imposed upon and color the loudspeaker sound the listener will experience and for most typical home listening rooms the Sound Reproduction the listener experiences from (~20Hz - 300Hz region) is so heavily dominated by the Room that even the “Perfect Loudspeaker” cannot overcome it but we can minimize the effects...!!!
miketn
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8 hours ago, Flevoman said:
- I find the overall sound a bit dark, not quite open enough.
It's like you would want to turn the treble knob on your preamplifier a bit.
Is it a matter of proper placement/positioning? Another amplifier? Or should I just accept that this is how the speaker sounds?This is not how the speaker sounds and is an indicator that 1st attention should be given to placement/positioning and could be of real benefit based on my experiences.
8 hours ago, Flevoman said:- There is a certain resonance in the sound that I just can't determine whether it's in the recording, caused by the horn, or some kind of cabinet resonance.
It's only audible with certain tones/dynamics/frequencies in the music.
Is this characteristic of the Lascala? There's plenty of information about resonance in the original Lascala. However, I thought this was addressed in the II and AL5 versions.I believe because of the nature of the La Scala frequency response especially in the 100Hz - 200Hz region that it’s very important to find a SBIR position that doesn’t emphasize this region unnaturally which can lead to the experience you describe here as well.
8 hours ago, Flevoman said:- The music could separate better from the speaker.
Currently, I can still clearly hear the music coming from the left, right speaker, and the center. This can definitely be improved, but it's a matter of adjusting, tweaking, etc.Yes this is definitely a strong indicator of loudspeaker placement and perhaps room acoustics need attention.
What is the nature/conditions of your listening position since some of the issues with speaker position can also be true of the chosen listening position like for example proximity to rear wall and early reflections issues.
If on good recordings the images are clinging to the speakers and not produced as a very open (3-dimensional) experience with the La Scalas disappearing as the sound sources then room acoustic reflections and loudspeaker/listener positions need attention in my experiences.
8 hours ago, Flevoman said:I've decided to dedicate next weekend to adjusting the speakers and listening position to get that right first.
This 👍🙂 ….. is extremely important step that should be fully explored and best of all its free..!!!
miketn
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43 minutes ago, Chief bonehead said:
One of those is off by a half an inch……
That was before I leveled them 😄
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4 minutes ago, KT88 said:
Mike, next time when I'm in the States I'll bring you some good German beer as a ticket so I can experience your set up for an hour and with a coffee, if you'll allow it.🙂
You will always be welcome at my place Heinz.. 👍🙂
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5 hours ago, Flevoman said:
@mikebse2a3 That's what I call a listening room.
Very impressive...
And with the speakers placed so far apart, are all the instruments and vocals still sharply defined in their proper positions?@Flevoman The speakers are spaced about 13ft/3.96m center to center (ie: tweeters) and the listener location is approximately 9ft/2.74m from the plane of the speakers (ie: tweeter).
IMHO on good recordings both Vocals and Instruments are realistically focused and the sense of locations in the sound stage are very natural in width and depth with a pretty holographic feeling on some of the best recordings. On some recordings I do feel like the piano for example might feel magnified some while others are fine but if I place the speakers closer together at the next best (SBIR) speaker location spread (@ approximately 11ft/3.35m) then I feel like on some recordings the piano is a little to small so my preference is for a natural or slightly larger than life piano for example. Image/Soundstage Depth on some of my recordings can feel like it goes back nearly 20ft/6m and my room width is nearly 20ft and Image/Soundstage can often fill that space when appropriate yet if I play a mono recording it is very tight and focused in the center between the loudspeakers. The speakers truly appear to be silent while the music is playing all around them on good recordings.
I enjoy this setup so much that I recently mapped my room/setup so that has I experiment with different setups, loudspeakers and room acoustic arrangements I wanted to absolutely and easily be able to recreate this setup relatively easily. 🙂
miketn
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One of the most critical aspects of integrating my La Scala AL5-ME in this essentially square room was adjusting for the SBIR (Speaker Boundary Interference Reflections). Movements in relation to the wall boundaries of as little as a few inches can make or break the smoothness of sound reproduction below 300Hz. Listening to a good recording of an Acoustic Upright Bass I find to be a valuable tool in loudspeaker placement as it pertains to reproduction of frequencies below 300Hz.
As can be seen I have the La Scalas well into the room and yes it does reduce the LF extension versus corner loading but it is very smooth detailed reproduction and the soundstage/imaging is excellent with the speakers totally disappearing as the sound sources.
Note: While I can and do enjoy the La Scala AL5 on their own in this setup with music I mostly use the KPT-1502-HLS prototype sub (Located Behind My Listening Position) with them or even my Underground Jubilee’s because of the increased realism that comes from frequencies as low as 18Hz adds to music reproduction and Soundstaging/Imaging.
miketn
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6 hours ago, YK Thom said:
They don't seem very practical for a normal sized room. It wasn't their intended purpose.
Heck some people think a Heresy is to big…😆
Depends on what you mean by “practical” and “normal sized” but don’t kid yourself they can sound awesome in what some would call a normal sized room.. 🙂
I’ve used (3) KPT-904 with K402/K510 cinema HF in a 2900 cubic foot room and it was pretty awesome IMHO.
miketn
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Where are the "new" Jubilees?
in 2-Channel Home Audio
Posted
Yes …. Please share your impressions and pictures of the room/setup if possible would be appreciated ..!!!
miketn