RFinco

---------------- On 3/13/2004 12:19:35 AM khorn58 wrote: to many car almost more than kl;ipsch speakers!!! 47 to 85 vws. total ten 5 saabs from 88 to 93 ( the real saabs) 11 vws from 1947 to 1985 One nissan 4x4 pickup( the tow car) one 99 checy mini van(wifes car) one on the road this week... 93 Saab 900 covert 48kmiles 88 saab 900 turbo 200k (winter car or avrey dya ride) 67 vw micro bus 58k miles all orig from paint to engine 55 vw westfalia camper(my capmer) 82 westfalia campeer( wife and famlys camper) het the 55 just to slow with it 36 hp engne. 88 Saab spg 250 hp roket sled for sunnydays 80 kmiles 55 vw covert for crusing to many ---------------- I just gotta say...my saab is pretty damn real. EASILY hits 160(damn electronic limiter)...no where near redline and holds it without problems. 160 mph is as real as I want to get... I'm going to "chip" it, and change out the intercooler and downpipe...that'll push me to around 315 HP... I'm good with that...and since its a saab I'll be somewhat protected when I flip it 43 times...

---------------- On 3/12/2004 8:28:56 PM minn_male42 wrote: brickwall, zerosurge, and surge-x use the same technology..... the 15 amp units DO NOT restrict current..... they pass a full 15 amps..... i'm not sure where that rumor started... but it is a load of b.s....... ---------------- Heres your answer Minn. This was started by audiophiles with lots of gear and high current needs. I don't think its "BS" as much as one would believe---BRICK WALL didn't think so either as they released a 20amp version of their product... The (audiophile) 'Brick Wall' AC line filter "...This is the Price Wheeler 'Brick Wall'. Its primary purpose is as a high-energy-absorbing, high reliability series mode surge suppressor, but it also acts as an EMI/RFI filter. It contains a large inductor that is rated to carry 15 amps. However, my 'Brick Wall' emits a slight hum when more than about 1 amp is drawn; for this reason (and a possibly unfounded reluctance to put a big inductor in series with the power amps) I use the 'Brick Wall' only for the CD player and digital preamp. The power amps use a conventional MOV-type Tripplite Isobar modified for remote control." And now...the _new_ audiophile 'Brick Wall'. Somewhat to my surprise Price Wheeler contacted me a number of months ago. Audiophiles visiting my pages had inquired about this device, but were concerned about some aspects of the original 'Brick Wall', primarily hum when large currents were drawn. Apparently sufficient interest was shown that Price Wheeler decided to produce a new model designed to address these matters. I recently received one of the newly redesigned units. The new unit looks MUCH more like a high-end audio component than my original industrial version. Very nice design, both aesthetically and ergonomically. This version is silent even feeding both (main and subwoofer) power amps. No hum, excellent! I was curious about what effects that big inductor might have on the AC voltage when the amps were playing sudden loud sounds (and presumably requiring more current). I attached my trusty RadShack digital voltmeter to the power line and repeatedly played a track (dino roars, stomps, etc) from the loudest CD I own, played as loud as I could stand, both with and without the 'Brick Wall' in the AC line. Normal line voltage variations were greater than any voltage drop caused by the power amps' demand. I am reassured that, in my system at least, all is well. The standard unit is rated at 15 amps, so large Krell, etc. owners should see the Price Wheeler web site for huskier 'Brick Wall' models." http://www.audioreview.com/PRD_117972_1590crx.aspx#reviews -there are 2 reviews here that discuss the possible current limits of the 15amp version. and how they "notice" a difference once they got the 20amp version. When I was doing my research on these 3 years ago or so I did see on the "audiophile" type forums people claiming that they were limiting and such, but I also think that many of these people simply WANTED their very high priced equipment to work better than the much cheaper items from PRICE WHEELER. It might be BS, it might not....who knows. I know that price wheeler responded by making a 20amp version with a 15 amp cord....were they just giving people what they wanted, or did they see this as a realistic issue? If you have very high powered equipment and draw a ton of current it would make sense that the 15amps are limiting.... but I don't think this is a threat to someone with your average stable of high end equipment.... now the EAR or that guy with the wall of Mcintosh stuff....they might have a current problem.....

---------------- On 3/11/2004 8:14:02 PM D-MAN wrote: There is a technical reason that the analog vinyl is "better" than digital, as the digital signal is not a true analog (it has some gaps somewhat like "steps") and subsequently gets "filled in" during conversion back to analog. Nontheless, this is a real distortion of the true analog signal. Regardless, I dumped my vinyl in the 80's and never looked back. Now at least I have truly DUST FREE listening... DM ---------------- The D-man hit it right there. thats the crucial difference in sound. Digital, no matter how "fine" a scale it goes to can never create a pure curve. there are always jagged elements to it. Analog can create that pure curve. as an example--look at a computer generated curve--if you look close enough you will see, no matter how fine it is, pixelization. you will see a dot intersecting with another dot of the same size. This is the inherent flaw with our CURRENT digital technology. I do offer for consideration that eventually those audible "pixels" will become so fine that the human ear will not be able to pick them up, i.e will not be able to distinguish a digital curve from a non digital curve AND the conversion process will allow for a truer signal. I think then, at that point the discussion between digital and analogue may become moot, or if not moot more about nostaligia and psychology than about sound. I think this may be rather far off however as CDs and DVDs are not capable of creating detail fine enough to eliminate that audable "pixelation". I think the best we have right now is technology that attempts to "round off" the signal that it receives, but that is in the conversion/decoding process not within the actual recording, and it is also priced well out of reach of 99% of the marketplace. For a cd to sound as good as a record the mastering on the CD has to be very well done, and it has to be played on a "CD transport" type unit (Rega comes to mind, as does LINN, or California Audio Labs...)

---------------- On 3/12/2004 4:55:38 AM wheelman wrote: Did you hear a difference in sound quality? Could i plug say my rca 8 plug line conditioner into that? That way i could still have the protection and all the plug ins. Because i couldn't afford anymore at the most than the two plug ---------------- good question--to be honest with you I didn't do it for a sound quality type of thing-I did it because there would be no way I could afford to replace my equipment if it got fried for some reason (once I buy a 3000.00 "thing" i usually can't go and buy another one right away...). I wanted something that absolutely, positively would stop everything in its tracks and would not fail..ever. Niles, Panamax, monster and others all despite their bells and whistles could not guarantee me never to fail, nor could they protect against dirty power or severe spikes in power. the brick wall could. The brick wall could stop power that had MULTIPLE surges (the others cannot--one strong one and they're done)at multiple times. And it could stop these surges without needing to be replaced! (thats right! you don't have to buy a new one...EVER!! its non-destructive!) Plus, I like over-kill. I have the 2 plug model which I then plug my panamax unit into which is 8 plugs. so I use the 2 plug box as the catch all and let the panamax be the power-strip. no matter how dirty the power is in my area-my gear is safe. My receiver is the other plug that is used on the brick wall. I checked with Price wheeler about this arrangement, and at the time they said it was fine. Now--they have rack mount type units so I'm sure they would advocate for that. as far as sound goes--thats why I bring up the 15amp vs. 20amp issue--a reviewer once said that the 15amp limit affected his sound which wasn't true of the Power Wedge (this may be but take a look at the price difference AND the power wedge was a line conditioner as well....) and so in answer to this the 20amp version was born. now if I had a few grand to spend I would probably be looking more at something like the RICHARD GRAY POWER STATION and other such products, but for guaranteed protection against everything including a lightning bolt you can't come close for the price to the offerings of PRICE WHEELER. Take a look at their industrial transformers and such that they build--this company knows what they are doing. Read the reviews and such-I know for a fact that there are reviews that talk about "how it sounds" (nothing negative that I found, except for the 15amp being a bit limiting..but they fixed this issue since then..)

1999 Saab 9 3 viggen I shouldn't be allowed to drive this thing....I'm gonna hurt myself bad...

---------------- On 3/11/2004 11:22:28 PM formica wrote: Would you happen to know who does the DnB song in the 2004 Nissan Sentra ad on TV? It reminds me of the heavier stuff of Technical Itch or Panacea, but.... Later... Rob ---------------- a little research repeated one name: HERMIT BASTARD- song: Every Word You Say (instrumental) website http://www.hermitbastard.com/HB.html but i think the link is busted...

---------------- On 3/11/2004 11:22:28 PM formica wrote: Someone who doesn’t buy into all the babyboomer re-re-re-released albums... Both Ctec albums were pretty good as well as the Colbalt60 one... but I never bought the Male-or-Female and Speed Tribe, given they are “special order” here. There is a MorF track playing on internet radio which is a nice mix of techno and industrial. Have you heard either group / albums? Thanks, Blue Six and Zero-7 as are both new to me... I’ll read/listen into them. Would you happen to know who does the DnB song in the 2004 Nissan Sentra ad on TV? It reminds me of the heavier stuff of Technical Itch or Panacea, but I’m pretty sure it’s neither. Later... Rob ---------------- Cobalt is ok...i.e. cobalt is to F242 as Shineing is to Nitzer Ebb..both sorta born of the other, but a weak second "attempt" Blue Six is being used in deep house music everywhere--Miguel Miggs' NUDE series is fantastic for that type of music... STATELESS by CTEC is just a speaker punishing song--salesmen just cringe when they hear that bass kick in...they know their gear is about to break.... Hmm...I don't know DnB that well, but I have friends that do...I'll find out what track that is in the commercial... you should check out ANDY C -- NIGHTLIFE if you can get it, that album is like....wow. the best DnB I've ever heard. only thing better is ANDY C live.

I'm a research junkie so I try to read quite a bit about things, especially before I purchase. I've always liked this site below, its basically a database of reviews by both writers and non-professional consumers http://www.ecoustics.com/

I was just reading about this actually cause I like CARVER stuff; here check this out in regards to the "current vs. Voltage" set up... Source: Sunfire Cinema Seven Signature Edition 400 Watts x 7 Home Theater Power Amplifier November, 2003 by Kris Deering http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10_4/sunfire-cinema-seven-power-amplifier-11-2003.html "...Like previous Sunfire amplifiers, you have a choice of voltage source or current source outputs, selectable by choosing which set of speaker binding posts you connect to. The principle is based on classic tube amplifiers being current source by design. According to Bob, this gave them their trademark sound, which was warmer and a bit more full bodied than the voltage source designs of most solid state amps used today. Bob wanted the flexibility of offering a choice depending on your taste in sound. Those with electrostatic or ribbon speakers may opt to use the current source connection, while others may use the conventional voltage source outputs. You can also drive separate parts of your speakers with the different output types, e.g., drive the woofers with the voltage source and the tweeters with the current source. This is the recommendation Bob gives for setup in the manual, and I gave it a try. Ill talk more about that in the listening section of the review. After listening to music for a few days, I decided to experiment with the different output configurations of the amplifier. At first I drove the speakers using the standard voltage source outputs. This provided the sound I was more accustomed to and was by far my preferred setup. I thought the amplifier performed its best in this configuration especially in the low end. When driving my speakers full range with two-channel material, this configuration provided the most dynamic experience with tighter more detailed bass, and was evident more in jazz and hard rock. Kick drums and lower bass notes had more report to them. However, this area is the only spot in which I thought the Krell outperformed the Sunfire. The Krell had a low end that was extremely impressive. Using the Krell with my speakers resulted in bass that would almost make a subwoofer unnecessary. The Sunfire did provide plenty of low end power; it just wasnt quite as involving as the Krell was. But this wasnt much of an issue with me, as I rarely ever run my speakers full range. When I switched to current source, I immediately noticed the change in tonal quality. This mode is used to coax a more tube-like sound from the amplifier. It did offer a slightly more laid back sound, but it wasnt really to my liking. I found the lower end a bit too subtle. There have only been a few times that I have preferred a tube sound, and that is mainly in guitar amps with certain types of music. A good example of this is Eric Johnsons music. The richness of his playing is fully complimented by the tube amplifier he uses. I also tried using the voltage source for the woofers and the current source for the tweeters. This was more enjoyable than going all out current source. The soundstage was more defined, and the lower end regained the tighter more pronounced feel. This was more apparent in music playback than film soundtracks though. While I did prefer straight voltage source overall, I love the idea of offering the end user a choice and leaving it up to his/her ears." ok..I'm just the messenger--don't blast me (hear me EAR!! ??) I'm not the reviewer either, nor am I an expert by any means or even a novice about tube sound...I'm just providing some info...

To those who go with the BRICK WALL (and, i couldn't see why you WOULDN'T...except maybe price...) there are 2 types for audio people. there is the 15 amp limit and the 20 amp limit. GET THE 20!! the 15 has been known to be so limiting that it actually stops current that your amp may need. the 5 extra amps really can't hurt your system, and your system will then never hit the overhead power limits. when I got mine 3 years ago they had just built the one for audio people and all it was, was an expensive black cube with 2 outlets and a green light--since then they've built several new units...I WANTTT!!! aggrrggh.... the "rack mount" style with the 10 plugs--thats what I want, but it wasn't available when I bought my gear... its a shame to have something that is soo cool and works that well, yet you *never* know when it works. when it does something that saves my expensive gear it should make a "happy" noise. I'd pay for that sort of add on.

...and then you go to the box alone for 2 min. and you feel shame.....then..you get free. ...if anybody throws me against the boards, I'm gonna piss all over myself...... sorry...I couldn't help but make a "slapshot" refrence here...............

---------------- On 3/11/2004 4:25:03 PM formica wrote: ..... I'd like to throw in track 13 (I think it's called Terrible Funk) from Breakbeat Era's only album. In a slightly different style, the bass in the live version of "Melt" by Front 242 has to be mentioned. Rob ---------------- Breakbeat--nice call...How about WINE by BLUE SIX or just about anything from Zero-7. and right along with your FRONT 242 mention---C TEC (jean Luc of F242's new project) STATELESS of of "Darker" has the deepest hardest electronic bass I've heard in a long long time, definitely the deepest of anything 242 has ever done...check it out!

I did the same research and I too ran into the MOV issue. heres the solution for you--trust me. PRICE WHEELER "the brick wall" do your research---there isn't a better protector on the planet. http://www.pricewheeler.com/ this thing is non-destructive, and can take all day long more current than your wall wireing can actually carry. I have one of these, and then a panamax 500 plugged into it. that way, I get the 1 switch turn on, the multiple plug useage but the TRUE protection of the BRICK WALL. NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING can protect as well as this thing. there are cases of people's homes being directly struck with lightning bolts and everything that wasn't plugged into the brick wall was completely destroyed....

---------------- On 3/10/2004 9:55:41 PM TheEAR wrote: But one track that is the most supper duper deluxe in true depth and fury is from Pomp & Pipes(on Reference Recordings)track four around 16 seconds in the track...starts the most subwoofer destructive sub huuman bass ever recorded. This track has sub 16Hz bass with such high intensity anything besides areal heavyweight sub tuned to below 20hz will fail poorly and start farting,some may end up damaged when pushed.Forget the Telarc deep bass...Pomp & Pipes only true subwoofers need apply. ---------------- wow. thats some seriously deep bass--did you test the Hz or does it actually tell you that? Go check out that C TEC track that I mention--it actually is WAY harder on speakers than the Silence remix--I've blown a club speaker with that track. if the Silence remix drops their jaw...this one will make it fall off.(just FYI--C TEC is Jean Luc D'meyer's new project--Jean Luc was the founding member of FRONT 242) Also--I got a track that I want to SEND you--mp3 of course. Its that ANDY C track I mention--its called "Mind Overload" and about a minute in it'll blur your vision... I'm curious how it compares---Its probably one of the deepest tracks I've ever heard...

---------------- On 3/10/2004 10:27:59 PM Rdmarsiii wrote: I was wondering if there was a way to convert mp3 or wma files to a file that all cd players can read. ---------------- the post above this one is correct--the format is .CDA or I believe simply...CD audio. MP3 and WMA can be converted to CDA files, and good burning programs will do exactly that-NERO for example will convert .WAV, .MP3, .WMA all to a .CDA file if you so desire, and will convert them "on the fly". The real question you should ask is getting "older" equipment to read a "burned" CD that contains audio information...Some of them cannot read a CDR disc, some CAN read CD-RWs though, and still yet others can't read either CDRs or CD-RWs. Good luck with your old equipment...honestly some of that "old" equipment seems like it was made better back then anyway....

interesting post--so I'm doing some research on this... I have found the one person that may be able to answer this question--read on.... 1946---Other sources of income include occasional writing, free-lance photography, building audio amplifiers, and installing high-fidelity sound systems. Invisible Man (Electric guitar sounds nearly concluded the book: Some drafts end with the narrator opening a storefront church filled with electric guitars, records and a p.a. system.) He was at home with technology and Einsteinian physics; his models were Malraux, Hemingway, and Kafka; he designed stereo equipment and built amplifiers for extra cash. If anyone is going to know the answer to this question--its this guy: Robert G. OMeally Robert OMeally is the Zora Neale Hurston Professor of English and Director of the Center for Jazz Studies at Columbia University. He received his B.A. from Stanford (1970) and his Ph.D. from Harvard (1975). His major interests are African American literature, music, and painting. He has written extensively on Ralph Ellison, including The Craft of Ralph Ellison (Harvard, 1980), and a collection of papers for which he served as editor, New Essays on Invisible Man (Cambridge, 1989) He has also written almost all the definitive information in regards to Ellison's ties to Jazz, and has put together a Jazz compilation of Ellison's favorite pieces including a companion book that goes with it. THE CD IS CALLED: Ralph Ellison: Living with Music THE BOOK IS CALLED: Living with Music: Ralph Ellison's Jazz Writings the best Email address I could get you is this: ROBERT GEORGE O'MEALLY Title: ZORA NEALE HURSTON PROF Dept: ENGLISH-COMPAR LIT Mail Addr: 617 PHILOSOPHY mail code 4930 Phone: MS 4-6428 +1 212-854-6428 Fax: +1 212-854-5398 UNI: rgo1 EMail: rgo1@columbia.edu

---------------- On 3/10/2004 7:25:22 PM cwm wrote: Hey, dont sell yourself short, I know Mensa members who wait on tables or drive trucks.........but one could surmise that the lady with the "million bucks" has some serious issues going on!! ---------------- I joined MENSA when I was in High School so that I could get the bumper sticker that came with passing of their test (a 132 on the Staford-Binet IQ exam) and joining their elitist club. I then put the bumper sticker upside down on my car. It was like a built in "screener" for people. If they "got it" they probably were fun to talk to..or at the very least made fun of the me while I was driving...

---------------- On 3/10/2004 1:49:52 PM gtDark wrote: ---------------- On 2/18/2004 2:51:59 PM formica wrote: "Angel" by Massive Attack is one of my favorite *full frequency* test tracks ---------------- Definitely a good track, pretty much quiet in the beginning except the solid *BOOM*. ---------------- just a bit more--if you like ANGEL or Massive Attack trip-hop type stuff check out LAMB--the song--Gorecki. gorgeous vocals, nice back beat. HOOVERPHONIC is also worth your time and effort as is EVERYTHING BUT THE GIRL--"tempermental" a fav. bass test track of mine is HIGH ROLLER by Crystal Method

watch out for ONECALL buyer beware with their stuff. IF!! you were going to go that route you might want to check out www.etronics.com because they are similar....but, many of these sites are shady... what are you looking for specifically? if you have an idea about what you want I can probably give you some good reputable places to get it...I bought basically my entire home theater setup on line.... one person you might want to email or talk to is JOSH LEHMAN aka DOC DVD. he sets up quite a few buys on equipment--all on the level, all new in the box type stuff. he's like a "broker" so you still get the warrenties and such. you can just google "doc DVD" and you'll get his website which is www.docdvd.com I've bought a few Pioneer ELITE pieces from him at fantastic prices WITH full warrenties...(i got my receiver new in the box-2 months after it came out for 2400 bucks--thats 1300 less than the stores out here were selling it for!!) I think his EMAIL is JLehman@docdvd.com and he is located in ATLANTA. heres some info about him: Joshua David Lehman MCSE, Certified Web Master Chief Executive Officer/Publisher Digital Man Interactive, Inc./dba eTEKSupport Services DocDVD.com/DVDPhD.com/GameGeekz.com #262 2625 Piedmont Road, Suite 56 Atlanta, GA 30324 (404) 421-9909 Direct Line/Mobile Forwarding Line jlehman@docdvd.com www.docdvd.com www.dvdphd.com www.gamegeekz.com www.eteksupport.com www.buydvdsoftware.com see if he can help you in any way. he hangs around the FLAGSHIP AV/RECEIVER forums quite a bit too..but if you contact him directly he's more responsive... fyi: those forums can be found at: http://pub106.ezboard.com/baussiedvdandhtforum

just to add some here... if anyone needs info about techno type music with some good bass to it, let me know--I know that genre very very well. if you want a few in the techno world that are a good challenge...: RIVER OF BASS--Underworld. rolls very well...mello track with a constant bassline... BASS TEST--Ultimate Bass Masters. Stupid name, incredible-multi layered techno... STATELESS--C Tec. My fav test track for bass speed, power, repeatability--people cringe when the bass track kicks in...Sales people freak out...its great...!! SILENCE (Fade Remix)--Delirium: Not only is this track beautiful (Sara Mclauhlan doing vocals) but the final base line is awsome... NO REALITY--Andy C( I think its this one..)--This track has a under the music bass line that you can't hear--but the better your speakers the more you can feel...IE on lower grade speakers you can't even feel it...I played it in my car (very small space JL audio W6v2 10" sub-soundproofed car) at a rather high volume and my vision actually blurred and I lost track of all the thoughts in my head...I'm going to take this to a store and blow up their speakers....take that best buy!

I'm making an assumption here-- does everyone know about binaural recording techniques?.... if not, look at this--with headphones there is nothing more realistic and "localized" than a binaural recording. www.binaural.com

ok...I'm kidding. this is still pretty cool though...and I'm sure the EAR will begin building a setup to hear this.... http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/blackhole_note_030909.html if this is an old post forgive me....

This has been a fairly "technical" post, and so I may be jumping in the water right after eating, with no floatation device but i wanted to say something.... my old roomate was a blues afficianato and had several radio shows under his belt that he hosted and such. He often brought up the fact that quite a bit of that genre of music was recorded and mastered on equipment that was far behind technologically the equipment people were going to use to reproduce the music with. my first question: Is this particular post about the recording industry in general--or the bigger studios and such? I mean, I can't really see some of these brilliant, but relatively obscure blues musicians or jazz musicians recording in a "high tech" studio, but I could be wrong... my second question: Is this about the exact "timing"? I.E. the recording industry in 1920s vs. the playback capability of the 1920s, or is this about when something is recorded vs. whenever it is reproduced? (I.E. a recording from 1920 being reproduced on today's equipment?) The other thing I would offer merely for consideration--there are pieces of music, in the blues and jazz genre's that were done very recently on very "low tech" equipment. things that pop into mind would be early work by ROBERT BRADLEY or R.L. BURNSIDE (particularly "*** pocket of Whiskey--which was recorded in RL's trailer) I would think that there are exceptions to every rule. I find it amuseing that often the particular music of the audiophile is the same genre of music where there was very little money spent on the recording of said music, i.e. Jazz and Blues. For example--its quite feasible that the early works of say, John Coltraine or Rashon Roland Kirk were recorded on equipment that is NOWHERE near the technology level of something like a LEXICON MC-1, or a KRELL AV STANDARD, or ADA or Theta or any of the processors out there, that are so coveted.... just some more food for thought I guess....

I didn't read all 4 pages of this post, so if its been mentioned ad nauseum please forgive me...... when I was graced with the chance to check out JMOT's spectacular Khorn/herritage home theater we listened to the QUEEN DVD. I don't really like Queen all that much, but JMOT showed me a few facts about it. The one that stuck with me was that this DVD was done BY DTS. This sold me. we popped it in, and did the whole "Bohemian Rahpsody" thing and, I have to say I've never heard a better example of DTS in anything, movies, music,...anything. This DVDs mastering is absolutely incredible. It made me sad that a QUEEN DVD was the best out there, but it still was SUPER IMPRESSIVE. I would Recommend it highly. I also like Sarah Mclachlan's MIRRORBALL-but mainly cause of the song "ICE" in 5.1 when it comes to music, for the most part i guess I'm still a two-channel kinda' guy......

---------------- On 3/8/2004 9:07:15 AM minn_male42 wrote: there are two types of outdoor speakers.... 1. "weather resistant" - these speakers are designed to be mounted under an eave or anyplace that will not get rained on directly..... 2. "weather proof" - these speakers can take direct exposure to the elements - some of these speakers can actually be immersed in water and still work..... both of these types of speakers use polyprolene or metal cones with rubber surrounds.... the enclosures are usually sealed against the elements... near speakers distributed by bogen are "water-proof" and will run under water with no damage...... http://www.bogen.com/speakers.htm#NEAR http://www.nearspeakers.com/ ---------------- how good do these outdoor speakers sound? I've never heard them and I was curious about this--it sounds like you've got some experience in this arena... how would outdoor speakers compare to a good set of like, MB quart MARINE speakers, or other brand Marine grade speakers--I know its different power and such, but if someone was interested in good outdoor sound would the extra effort be worth it?