Kriton

ALright, I know that an SVS and Klipsch thread has been done before, but the questions was asking about the THX subs... I have a line on a local RSW-15 that will fit my RF-'7s but it is used and a little beat, but the price looks to be pretty stellar. However, I have seen and heard about Sunfire's EQ TrueSub, and I dig the size and the reports have been pretty amazing AND I have other Sunfire components...(400~7 and TGIV) BUT, I have also started looking at the SVS subs, and they seem pretty awesome too, at least the reviews are very positive... SO, first, an SVS question...what is it with all of the configurations? Which is better box or cylinder? These things come with additional samson amps that one can buy, and bass modules and equalizers, and lions and tigers, etc...WTH? What is the best configuration for a price point similar to KSW-15? The pictures I have seen of the cylinders appear to be pretty big, at least the mid end, and they remind me of a cat scratching post...and I have three (declawed) cats...anybody have any experience with this? How is the customer service, etc? DO I need the extra amps, and what are they for? Site is huge and configurations endless. Lets assume for this comparison that I don;t need (have room for, or what to pay for) two separate subs. Second, the Sunfire...are either of these three subs (Klipsch, Sunfire, SVS) comparable? Assume that I am going to be listening to 60% movies and 40% music (mostly classical, baroquem, jazz and opera - with some Floyd for the chaser)...Are any one of these subs better for this percentage and subject? Tight, accurate, dead on bass, with potential for awesome bass LFE stuff? OR should I just go with the KSW and leave it at that? It is the wrong color, and has some cosmetic problems but... What do you all think? K

DOn't know about La Scalas, but he did a Cornwall crossover job for me, and I am hearing things I haven't thought possible...I really didn't think these things could sound any better. The price is very reasonable, at least what he did for me... I am waiting a bit to get the wife acclimatized before I send the RF-7's cross to DeanG, but I think the Crites mod was so far some of the best cash I've spent, IMO, such as it is. K

Yes, you are right, I have now separated them substantially. They are probably 8 feet apart or more. I have had no recurrence of the color problem...don't know what it was...perhaps it did just need to degause. It was pretty disturbing though... I still don't get the whole foam thing. Don't I remember a thread where someone said not to put any thick foam into a speaker that would impead the internal volume of the speaker, and thereby change the volume characteristics of the speaker (such as with putting heavy foam in a Cornwall)? Is there no need for these volume calculations in an RF-7, or are these things just not as well thought out? Just curious...thnaks for the replies! K

Interesting, thank both of you for replying... I took McGoo's advice and took apart the center channel...and didn't see anything loose...of course the enclosure is just stupid packed with heavy foam, but no dish shaped things out of wack...I moved the mains back closer to the set, haven't experienced a recurrence of the yellow problem, put the center back on top and haven't seen the red streak either...very strange... Could it be that the tube just gets over worked, over heated, something? The TV had been on for hours (like 6) on a movie marathon this weekend, and we noticed the color problems into the 6th hour...?? What is up with the damn foam batting in these speakers? I just stuck my hand in the RF's port and felt the same damn foam, this time filling up the port enclosure, so no air could have gotten through,...I pushed it back in opening up the port, but good grief, what is up with these things? K

Bill, thanks for the fast reply... OK, what would the "bucking magnet" look like, and would it be loose in the center case? If shaken could I hear it? I thought the RF's were shielded, do you think the Sunfire's could be doing anything like this? If the center is the problem, why would it only indicate that there was interference when the speaker is ? That is what is just befuddling the hell out of me... Also, the yellow cast spot is in the lower right, (not left as stated before) portion of the screen...if the center is what is causing the distortion (just for sake of argument) wouldn't the disortion be at the top near the center, not the lower right hand side of the screen? Is there anything in the TGIV or 400~7 setup that could be causing anything like this? I am afraid that the center may have caused some permanent burnin on the TV with the upper left red mark, but the lower right yellow patch is just making me nuts... Of course this might be a great time to sidle up to the wife and convince her of the need for a new projector... K

Hey ya'll, I just had a very unpleasant surprise...I noticed a faint yellow glow on my TV last night while watching a movie in the lower left hand side of the screen. My TV is an older 36" Toshiba regular-non plasma thing (next to be upgraded - but not right now), and I have my RF-7's placed approximately 1 1/2 to 2 ft. on either side away from the screen. I have a KSP-C6 center sitting on top of the TV, and DVD player, TGIV and 400~7 amp (In that order) sitting closely underneath the screen... So first question, what could be causing this? Are the RF's shielded to prevent magnetically disrupting the screen, or if not how far away is good enough? My Corns will of course light a TV screen up like a "nucular" bomb if placed too close to the tv screen, but I expected the RF's to be shielded for some reason, as they are used often for HT speakers? Here is another strange thing; the KSP-C6 center, which has sat on top of the TV for a while, is to be shielded, as it is designed to sit atop a TV...but when I moved the speaker away from the TV, there was a red streak approx 8 " wide and 2-3"thick in the top right hand corner of the screen? SO follow this, when the speaker is sitting on top of the screen, no color change...blue screen produced when DVD player is off is bright blue with no distortion, but when I the speaker (and I am talking, moving the thing 10' away, completely removing the center), the red streak shows up? WTH? Very confusing, and as I don't want to burn in, can any of you please tell me what you think? K

If you use the search function here, you will see that they were pretty active end of last year...meets and stuff. I am in Ft. Worth, and it would be awesome to see adn compare other setups and listen to different equipment and tunes on dear old (and new) Klipsch set-ups. I was looking forward to getting my Corns redone, and the RF'7's put in and up and having a meet, but Yahoo groups doesn't have the DFW_Hornhead group, and I haven't heard anything from them, except for recent response to newby (new heresy owner) that suggested she find a group like them and get to know other philes in the area. Reminded me I wanted to look them up.... Where are all you guys? K

Hey ya'll, Is this group still in existence? I looked on Yahoo groups and couldn't find it anywhere! Is the chat inactive or just off boards or what? Thanks, K

Frz, I am not so sure about this...I thought the same thing, but I have just recently been using the TGIV and 400~7 together with RF-7's and full older synergy surround, and the transients are amazing...with the balanced connectors (yes, I know the system is not truly "balanced" - but the noise IS reduced) and good calibration this thing shows highs and lows like a madman. From whisper quiet to knock your head off in milli-second, baby. I was not so sure about the Sunfire stuff, seemed like smoke and mirrors and I have heard and read the arguments against the 400~7 being able to run all channels continuously, but I tell you what, this thing appears (so far, only have maybe 50 hours on it so far), to do everything it says it will do and then some. You will really like the channel separation and the Dolby PLIIx is pretty cool with two channel signals, if you have any questions when you get it, let me know...I woulnd'nt mind combining heads to eek out the best sound if you are game for question adn answer. Still trying to work the Holographic thing, just not quite there... As far as older amps or the newer 400~7, well I wouldn't know how the old works or sounds...never heard them. BUT, I will say that instead of buying several older two channel amps (with the attendant hassle of space requirements, power requirements and the ungodly wiring nightmare - which I had actually considered too (had a line on several relatively cheap Sunfire two channels) - I think I made the right decision going with one integrated amp box, and the sound is superb. I guess it depends on what you can get the separate amps for...if you shop long enough you will find decent deals. The last two 400~7's I saw go down on Ebay went for 2500 +/- 50, and 2600 +/- 50 (get on and look and you should find it)...I got mine with four years 10 months of warranty for a buy it now of 2400 and picked it up locally, which I thought was a kick *** deal. I was able to pick up the TGIV from www.Audioclassics.com for $1999.00 used and the condition was brand new, despite being labeled a B1 (used, with minor scratches)! The guys there were great, if you have not gone to that site, I recommend it, great stuff great prices...while I think the warranty was void/out on the TGIV, they still gave me a year warranty through them, and the conditon of the unit was spotless! No, I don't own the company nor get anything from this endorsement.... That is my experience, sorry if I didn't help. K

Nope, not trying to be defensive, just trying to say some truth here. Do you actually know many attorneys? I do, a lot of them - and I have heard many say, "Let's do this the most cost effective way for our clients", "Whatever is cheapest for the clients...", etc. Now I am not talking the huge international firms that charge outrageous amounts of money because they have a huge firm. I am talking about the majority of lawyers out here, the little guys, the guys that didn't walk into the family firm ripping people off from their day out of school...those firms and laywers exist, but they are not the majority. The majority of lawyers are out here trying to help mom and pop with their wills, trying to keep the cops from making cash on questionable traffic stops, trying to assist folks who can't live together any more sort out problems, and getting stiffed for their efforts. And you didn't answer my question: when was the last time you saw your doctor to provide medical services for no pay, pro bono? Attorneys here do it all the time, to the tune of thousands of hours of unpaid time, and hundreds of thousands of dollars in cash (mandatory and voluntary) contributions. But nobody hears any of that, or wants to frankly. I am sure there are some doctors who do volunteer their time, but I ask around, and I haven't seen or heard of any...just check it out. Board of Medical Examainers? Did you get that off tv? Do you know what steps a person has to go through to have their medical license taken away from them? DO you think that doctor who removed the wrong leg lost their license over that? Sure it won't look good on a resume, but I bet you dimes that he/she is still practicing somewhere, and suffering no doubt loads of psychological trauma because of it...hello, no legs here! I really don't know the end of that story, if you can find it, please let me know, I would be curious. I just don't have a lot of sympathy. Dozens of attorneys are put out of business here yearly. That guy in Florida went I beleive to three different states before anyone caught up with him, and he killed people - do 60 minute search, you know the story I mean! I sure hope somebody took his license. Just the reality. You know the funny part about it? Your KID gets caught messing with the next door neighbor's 16 year old, YOU get yourself into trouble, YOU screw around on your spouse and all your stuff ends up in the back yard pool, YOU fail to pay your taxes and are about to lose your house...who do you go to? Our well meaning, all caring government? Your church for guidance and support? Your mom? No...you find yourself a lawyer, those foxes in the hen house. Uh huh, what is that old saying I don't mind a crook as long as he is on MY payroll? My experience has been that there are a few who need to be taken out, but the majority are as helpful and honest as anyone I have seen. And, yes, I agree that your can subpoena Dr. records, we actually got rid of the term "duces tecum" in Texas, too complicated I guess, but the specific records from the medical inquiry is NOT subject to subpoena or discovery. And while a few contracts require the footing of costs up front, if the attorney wants to get a recovery, he/she most often foots everything; I have even heard of attorneys forwarding money to the clients up front and they will take it out of their recovery (which if it doesn't come, is money they eat). They might want to get the money out of their clients, but it doesn't happen as you have pointed out. There are also laws which, at least here, make the attorneys AND the clients responsible monetarily with damages and attorneys fees for bringing a frivolous suit as sanctions...would make me stop and think, I tell you. Who do you think is footing Jackson's legal defense, the king of pop? Please. The attorney obviously saw a chance for publicity and is footing the whole deal, glad he can do that for the king. But that makes him a publicity hound right? We have people in this country dying daily of organ failures of all kinds, here, Americans, maybe your family? But our medcial professionals (and hospitals, both of which complain of the high costs of health care, I might add) are spending millions footing the bill to surgically separate Egyptian babies, don't think that was good for publicity? But they are angels? Come on it is a business, both. Plain and simple. Anyways, sorry for the useless addition, thanks for the replies. B

OK, now I have to speak up, because, as usual, someone gets to start tearing on lawyers and sucking up what the media (and the insurance companies) have filled the American public with...that lawyers are just these overpaid blood sucking leeches that are causing all the poor angelic doctors to go out of business. Well buddy, it ain't true, and its pretty sad that everyone buys this guff. The lawyers in this country are the last line of defense between you and big brother my friend, and these days they are losing ground. Lets look at a few things, shall we? The lawyers have an organization (called the Bar Assocation) to whom they pay annual dues in the hundreds of dollars, and what does this organization do for lawyers? Here in Texas they have two apparent responsibilities, to provide CLE (continuing legal education - required classes to keep the lawyers educated) and to put lawyers out of business through often ridiculous, wasteful and inefficient grievance processes, whereby any schmuck who isn't happy with the outcome of his case can file a grievance and drag the attorney through the mud often for now reason. Do the doctors have an organization soley bent on putting them out of business? Nope, in fact they have a medical association that doesn't keep track of complaints on doctors from one jurisdiction to another (remember the story on 60 minutes of the brain surgeon killing a few people in Pennsylvania, and then relocating to Florida and doing brain surgery on a patient while sitting up, so he could get better video and the air bubbles traveling up the spine to the brain and screwing that person up?) There is even a civil rule of court procedure in Texas where you cannot inquire into or subpoena records from a doctor's inquisition (you know the meetings the doctors of a hosptial or group will have to look at a questionable call that a doctor makes on a medical case - sort of like what they depict on ER - most of those meetings across the country are taped or stenographically recorded, and YOU can't get any record of them if you are injured by a doctor!) You know, these attorneys, especially in personal injury cases, take these things on a contingency basis, that is, what ever is recovered is split by the victim and the lawyer sometimes in a large percentage. But UNTIl the recovery, these attorneys are paying for everything out of their own pocket...all of the upfront fees, all of the costs to get expert witness, depositions, paying their staff, paying copy costs and a lot if other things. That is VERY costly, so, beleive it or not, most cases that are brought are NOT frivolous because the attorney would have to pay to bring it, and while they may be a lot of things, they aren't stupid! A little while ago, I received a call here in Texas to vote what was called Prop 12, which was the Texas version of caps for personal injury recovery in medical malpractice cases. I responded, "I will vote YES on Prop 12 is you will send me a letter signed by any insurance comapany, that should I vote YES for Prop 12 and it passes, that the insurance industry will lower, across the board in Texas, the medical malpractice rates for doctors by a measly 10%. I will vote YES and I will get everyone I know to vote YES, and I will beat the streets and organize my own campaign for it..." Well you can imagine the response that I got...And I tell you, have the rates gone down? Nope, according to the news, the rates for doctors have gone UP...this is a business boys, the medical profession included, and I for one will be damned if a doctor amputates the wrong leg of mine and it only be worth $250,000.00 total for the rest of my life however old I am, to hobble around without legs because of the negligent mistake of a my doctor, OR the lady here in Texas who was told she had cancer, and the incorrect findings of her first doctor was just rubber stamped by the second two she received opinions from, they removed her lymph nodes and both breasts only to find out she never had cancer - now in her early thirties she is mangled, has no breasts, and is subject to every kind of infection that comes along because she has no lymph nodes - and is in her thirties (!) but that is the way it is in Texas. These aren't urban myths folks, this has happened! Let it happen to you and see how you feel about lawyers and doctors. Now, does that mean that all doctors are unconscientious, no of course not. I have had a few who were really cool, but that also doesn't mean that every lawyer is a crook, and no lawsuit has any merit, either. Oh and by the way, my experience has been with divorce lawyers, you know, the ones you absolutely love to hate...and you show me one with a lot of cash and I'll show you 10 that are starving (mostly becuase their clients pay them), even with 7 years plus education and student loans of their own, and they do not make starting anything NEAR what doctors make, even out of medical school and they get sued all of the time, and are expected on top of that to do mandatory pro bono work for the poor and contribute (also mandatorily) to indigent defense! You got any doctors doing that that you know of? Oh yes, they call it Medicare...well friends it is still a medical subsidy. Call a local attorney and ask them, you might be surprised. And next time you are in your doctors office and he spends 30 seconds with you and charges your insurance company $250.00, and you wonder why you can't get health insurance...don't blame it all on the lawyers...oh and I would tell you to get a sharpie and mark the GOOD leg off limits... Just my 2c. B

Frzninvt, Of the two that you tried, which is more expensive, how was the HT performance comparatively? Channel sep, things like that? Did they require special amps, or work with anything? Speakers you were using them with (same as your profile or different)? What was the prob with the B&K, I assume you are talking the REF Preamp, right? How much did the NAD cost, did you get it big box, can they be had on the internet? What is the current big processor, Cirrus or Motor, or what? And what the hell is the difference and why should I care? Is a processor a processor? Does processor speed matter? Should I be looking at a receiver as a pre (which is what I am using now, a yammie), do they have better HT processing in general because that is what they are specifically made for? This Yamaha will do everything but dance a jig, but I want simple and *separate* (channels of discrete HT sound, that is)... Am I just way off base? Why do I feel like I am using an inordinate amount of question marks? I need a beer (period), and some good 'ol PWK Corn lovin (platonic gentlemen purely platonic)... BB

Thanks for the replies! I had read a responsive thread on here I beleive about the 990, and that the into price was awesome given the feature set, etc. If anyone has one, do you still feel the same way? I also heard folks asay that it was too ugly to look at over at the AVS forum, but then they say a lot of stuff ...over...there. I have a set of Klipsch Cornwall II's that are sporting Crites crossovers and my new RF-7's will be sporting new Dean's as soon as I can find the time to be home more than 10 minutes (which I unfortunately will have to spedn making babies to satisfy the wifoid - poor me- she doesn't see enough of me either, maybe there is a reason?) SO, I will at some point buy a nice monblock set for the Cors in my own little cave, but for now the HT is it...Gotta get the toys in fast in case I am more fertile than I hope... ANy other suggestions? I know you guys have parasound, what do you think? Remember I want to mate this thing (for now) to the Sunfire 400~7, any advantages or disadvantages to this plan (other than aesthetics)? The 990 seems to be pretty stacked with reasonable features, I haven't checked out the McCormack (but will) and the McIntosh looks awesome, but I want to keep most of the money *IN* my retirement...What about ARCAM or Rotel, do they have anything worth a damn within my criteria that any one is familiar with? (Where is that lovely articulate blonde who owns RF-7's and all Rotel equipment, don't remember the name, but can see the face! Chime in here, please!) Are there any Internet based companies offering cool new products for cheap (ala Outlaw?)I also have heard no one comment on the Sunfire TGIV, why? Surely some of you have this thing? Come on, I feel like I am pulling hair here... Thanks again, those who replied. BB

OK, for the sake of argument, lets say, between $1k (990) and $3.5k (Sunfire)...that is alot of range, and features that could fall in the middle. Tell me what you think about the various models, makers, not just a list please. I can find lists, I need feedback from folks who have owned, heard, compared, bought...these things. No trying to be rude, just wasn't a lot of help. Outlaw takes a stomping everytime I pick-up a thread on them over at AVS, etc. Nobody talks about the Sunfire, I hear good things about the B&K (but nothing specific), I have heard the Aragon line is going away (and that there amps lack substance, so how are the pres?), no specifics on the NAD or the Anthem, and I have heard only peripheral comments about the Halo ("I LOOOOVE my Parasound Halo...") but no comparisons, reasons, support at all. McIntosh is super stuff, a little out of my price for a pre, any other suggestions and approximate street price? Also, if there are devices and brands to stay away from, tell me, so I don't waste my time! Thanks, BB

OK, now look ya'll...I have been on other forums reading extensively, and this thread just seems to run into a free for all, with all kinds of stupidity and bad spelling. So before I even ASK my question, I will throw my "mea culpa" in, and bow to the greater wisdom of all. Now, the question...I am looking for an HT pre/pro; I want a kick *** DTS/DD decoder that can separate the hell out the channels, giving me a wild 3D ride (when the poor audio of most DVD's will allow), using all Klipsch or frankly any good 5.1/7.1 speakers (I have RF-7's front, and Synergy rears - which I will be upgrading very soon). THEN, I would like for the thing to play music CD's relatively well too, as I am not/do not have the time or the money or the space to have my tube reference monster monoblocks up stairs and the home theater in the basement, as it seems most of ya'll do (we don't even have basements in Texas, shifting soil). Things I would like to talk about: Speaker equalization (EQ) (why should I care?) Bass management for 2 channel (why don;t they all have this and who actually DOES?) Reliability/Customer service Upgradeability **Best sourround sound** (aka what formats matter/are they changing soon/can the pre/pro be upgraded?) Balanced v non-balanced outputs (I know about the noise, but really, does it make that much of a difference?) Remote quality (Not a deal buster, but come one) Second (and third and fourth) zone capability (who cares or uses this?) **Best bang for the buck (aka WAF factor)** Now I will say that I have been looking at two apparently different spectrum ends, because, well I am funny that way...The 990 Outlaw, and the Sunfire Theater Grand IV..one is much more expensive than the other, but I have the 400~7 Sunfire amp (no cracks about Ohms law, now), and the matching component thing appeals to me...I read the Audioholics flaming/burning/crashing review of the Sunfire TGIII, but I have seen nothing anywhere on the TGIV (to see if any of the concerns were addressed?) Other pre/pros I have heard about...Anthem, Lexicon, HK, Parasound...good grief! Prices all over the board...would like to keep as low as possible while delivering necessary ride. Could someone narrow it down for me? What do you think? BB

Guys, thanks! I can't tell you how much I appreciate your responses, and I also understand that you ahve better things to do then educate a newb like me, that last post must have taken an hour! I am starting to get it...As a matter of fact, i am noticing some problems with my current set-up (crappy receiver and RF-7's with full Klipsch synergy surrounds) that fits exactly with what you ahve said...it is nore noticeable as a drop off in sound when there are dynamic highs...the drop-off is noticeable, and annoying as hell...the sound level drops the dialogue garbles, and the the sound, slowly begins to come back...almost imperceptibly at times. Does Carver really overstate his power outputs? Hey, is there any way to make the explanatory posts above a sticky of some kind, to place in a reference section, this should be memorialized for the masses. I am still at a loss as to the best amp, pre comnination, and whether it will be worth my while to get a kick-*** amp and wait on the pre for a while (using the receiver as a pre)? I know if I ask amp recommendations, I will get as many as the sun, from all different orners of the spectrum...I was looking at, and mention frequently, Sunfires, because I have a friend whose Sunfire I have listened to frequently, and I loved the sound (of course the Martin Logans didnt hurt either)... Thanks again! K

OK, you guys are killing me...all this rock and roll is very nice, but the best music I have found by far for Klipsch is opera and the larger choral recordings, my Cornwalls have always been tremendously unforgiving, and that is the key to critical listening. The older more high fidelity recordings are the best. Among my favorites are: Anything by Jussi Bjoerling, preferably, "Nessun Dorma", the crystal clear high notes are as amazing as this man's life was tragic. Anything you can get your hands on by Leonard Warren, probably the best baritone opera singer in the history of the world, his "Leonard Warren in Russia" live cd recorded during the absolute height of the cold war, to standing room only audiences, is not only an incredible cd (as it was remastered from the analog recordings made in the 1950's I beleive), but his incredibly adept warm and massive sound is unequaled in the music repetoire. Died while literally on stage at the Met, singing La Forza Del Destino, in front of some 3000 patrons - no doctor backstage, another tragedy. Look for the Leonard Warren Society online, they rereleased several cd's of his music in compilation, both operatic and art song (he had a thing for songs of the sea and some of the foreign art songs are wonderful (Le Berceaux), you can hear the guy in the front row sniffling, that is how live the recording is on my Corns). Franco Corelli, an animal of a tenor who died recently, is wonderful on a Klipsch. Also any good recordings of Ettore Bastianini, fantastic monster opera baritone from the 50's and 60's, is a treat. They just don't make singers like this any more, more's the pity. Verdi Requiem, Confutatis - tremendous ramped up deep orchestral background, soaring choral crescendo, if the bass singer is good, you have a sparking example of all things that the Klipsch does well... Orff's "Carmina Burana" - the "Imperatrix Mundi", or better known as the music of a thousand commercials, or the nusic from the movie "Excalibur" among others...fantastic unbeleivable clarity, and explosive, unforgiving detail in the Klipsch, one person breathes wrong, and you can hear it, really amazing experience...The roasting swan is something to hear on my Corns, you can visualize the scene, and the horn loaded tweets allow the fire to rip out of the speakers... More modern music, Arvo Part choral stuff is incredible, warm and dissonant, engaging and awe inspiring. A young man by the name of Eric Whitacre writes some of the most beautifully haunting modern choral works I have heard since Part, if you have a chance to sample the stuff on your Klipsch, do it by all means...this stuff will definitely make your RF-7's ring in that 3500 hz area as the music is laden with overtones, in crazy close in harmonies, and is sonorously dissonant, if there can be such a thing...the tension releasing resolutions are nothing short of breathtaking. OK, I am done with waxing poetic, now I wish I was home listening, dammit. By the by, Dave Mathews sounds fantastic too...if you want specific examples, or more specific recordings of the above pieces I can get you my favorites (I have a bunch of different recordings of the same events, in most cases). Other specific artists I can remember, Leontyne Price singing the "Leibestod" (specifically from the soundtrack of the movie, "Aria" - Jussi's best "Nessun Dorma" is on that one too, I highly recommend the recording), Ella Fitgerald, Miles Davis, John Coltrane "Blue Train", Mel Torme (anything), Sinatra "Live at the Sands"-great fantastic recording for my Corns, at high volume! Sorry so long, K

Amazing! I have learned more in the last 10 minutes reading your posts in reply to my frustration that I have in the last month lurking around and reading this board, thankyou! However, this raises new questions...I understand the need for current when the impedance drops, and I have read that the RF-7 impedance can drop precipitously below 8 ohms...under what circumstances exacly would it do this? Why would Klipsch make a speaker that has a devilish drop, knowing that these things will sound their best being played on ordinary (big box) equipment (which I am assuming that you are saying my puny amp can't muster that surrent at low impedances, therefore bad sound as the ohms dip, and I also make the assumptiont that the majority of the folks pushing these things have crappy receivers playing them)?? Do the heritage speakers have this drop in impedance too? (I have a trusty and recently rebuilt pair of Cornwall II's in different listening room with, yes, a crappy receiver for them as well (only listen in two channel there however), get the reason why I want to upgrade ALL round?) You also mention a ragged frequency response, what exactly, does that sound like? I can go to a high end audio store all day long, and no body be able to show me, by example, a "ragged frequency response" - Do you have any specific movie or music examples, when I make a side by side comparison, I could hear the response on a big box receiver or a quality theatre or two channel amp, all other things considered equal? What happens, say when one of these sound transients comes along and the receiver can't meet the current requirements? Does the moment pass silently by, does the receiver belch it out as noise, does the receiver clip, what?? I am really more interested in the silence AFTER the transient, in other words, will I be able to hear quieter passages more clearly with a separate amp, or will I have to keep turning up the damn volume, or more specifically changing the balance of the speaker volumes depending on the movie? Will the receiver just clip and die ( I can dream can't I, make the wife more amenable to the upgrade!) Next question, I have seen amps that are heavier than hell, but does that necessarily mean high current/wattage or quality? Is the Sunfire series just smoke and mirrors, as the CG 400~7 weighs only some 40 pounds? I have seen some great reviews about warmth and the "down tracking" power supply, is this just hocus-pocus, and would I be better served getting a real behemoth amp that runs hot and is a hulking steaming pile of power (oooh, that was almost poetic, I like the visual, cut to a picture of the Levinson monoblock towers for sale on 'gon, I bet I could cook an egg on those things when they are rocking). I am getting closer to enlightenment boys, now just bring me home. Thank you for your responses, truly...I greatly appreciate you sharing your learning... K

Awesome! Thank you, clear as mud ... So can any body answer or remember my original question(s)? If one watt is one watt and it is very tiny, and therefore any receiver/amp can out out one watt and current doesn't matter, then why do we bother with any different amps/receivers/etc? My puny receiver is certainly capable of one watt and no current, so why should I bother looking for an amo at all, what difference does it really make, using your example? Back to the original question, is there any difference between a 200 watt amp or 400 watt amo in teh same amp line (like a Sunfire)? I use this example because it is my understanding that these are high current amps? Please get me back to the original question...please give me some examples...why is a yamaha not as good as a B&K not as good as a Krell? By your analysis, they are all 99% hype and 1% science? Thanks! Not trying to be smart ***, just never seem to get an asnwer to my original questions sometimes... Thank you! K

OK, wait a second... I thought "headroom" was the amount of over head if you will between the rated wattage of a speaker (RF-7 for instance being 250 watts) and the wattage of your amp? So you are telling me that a 150 watt or 200 watt amp will produce enough headroom to "open up" the RF-7's? If amperage is what is important, than why do we even talk watts? I just got a pair of RF-7's, and like everyone else, I need a new amp to push these things...I have been looking for something with more than 250 so that I have that illusive headroom, but I don;t need to do that? Would a Sunfire 400~7 be necessarily better than a 200~5 (apart from the obvious more channels, which I wouldn't use anyways) and does this amp have the amps necessary to put out for the RF's, center and the surrounds (all Klipsch) and subwoofer (which I am aware doesn't connect to the amp, but to the pre)?? Man am I confused...I am kind of glad I didn't just drop dime on an overkill amp! AAArrrghghghg Please clear this up! K

Sorry for double post...damn buttons! K

Damn! I think those were the speaks I was about to drop the hammer on here in the Metroplex? Seriously, I had called Ultimate to see if they had a pair in black left, and I was told they one "new" pair in black left, ...crazy! Sorry for you pain man, I just went ahead and ordered them from a local authorized dealer custom installer, and got them in two nights ago...they are so pretty I damned near cried... Did I tell you they were a GIFT? As in FREE? Sorry, I had to say it, still can't beleive it... I still think they should take those suckers back, you make a stink I bet they will, they sold them AS NEW, not after thouhgts, regardless of close-out status or store closing... I would ***** till my lips fell off... K

OK, then the next question is...how do you guys feel about a receiver used as a pre-amp? I have a Yamaha receiver, it has pre-outs (more of a top end yammie), and I really like the surround sound decoding, but I think I need more ooooph. Would you suggest I not use this thing as a pre-amp? Also, I have repeatedly heard about Yamahas being bright with say RF-7's, and one guy said he wouldn't let his RF's near a Yamaha...is this "brightness" dimished or eliminated if the Yamaha is used only as a pre-amp? Thanks! K

Ok, thanks for the reply! While I said above that used an oil based stain, I appreciate that link, lots of excellent stuff there, looks much better than the run of the mill at HD (even though I HD! Thanks again! K

I have tried that, but the adhesive won't stick to the grill, and the grills pull away, leaving both strips of new velcro on the speaker face (as the vecro is stronger than the adhesive,apparently - and this is the "industrial strength velcro too!)...I think if the masonite (or whatever it is - see question posed in first post!) wasn't warping outward, I would need the velcro to hold down the grill, just to keep the grill in place... SO, any answers to ironing the masonite to make it straight? At some point I want to get new grills from Russ, but right now, I want to save these originals, as they are very nice..just curling like chips! K