boa12

jr, same config w/ the denons on bass mgmt. when you set any channel large it gets full range w/o any of its low bass being crossed out to the sub. & if you set it to fronts+lfe then the sub also gets the same low bass as the fronts, as well as all LFE like it always will unless sub:no is selected. the point is that if you use or dial down the crossover on the sub then you may be throwing away LFE. when i switched in the sub's crossover at 40-50hz & played a dvd w/ alot of LFE i noticed a big decrease in LFE. & in this case it gets thrown away by the sub's filter. this is the bass manager's dilemma w/ a fixed 80 or 90hz crossover in the processor of the receiver: use the sub's crossover & you filter out some LFE. don't use it & set big speaks to large then you get poor bass quality due to the conflict between the large speaks & sub. that's why most have found that the low bass quality improves when they set speaks to small (especially the fronts near the sub). even better when you have an adjustable crossover in the processor itself. definitely a nice feature to have for fine-tuning. i set all my speaks to small & the dsp crossover to 50hz. sounds better to me than putting the fronts or others on large - seems to have a smoother transition from the speaks to the sub that way. & of course i disable the crossover on the sub itself so that no upper range LFE is cut by the sub's low pass filter ("crossover control").

jr, are you using a yammy & the sub out on it to the sub? its confusing in yammy's manual, but for the both setting it sends low bass from the fronts (large or small) & low bass from the other channels set small to the sub, & the LFE goes only to the sub, not to the fronts also. iow, when it says LFE and fronts, that's from the sub's perspective. it means the sub gets both low bass & all LFE. the only way it sends LFE to your fronts is if you use the fronts setting. but that's like saying sub:no so your sub gets no LFE in that case. this is how most dsp alogrithms are configured. so since your LFE is going only to the sub & you have the sub's crossover dialed low, you throw away some LFE above the sub's crossover point.

l&l, did you mean the RF-7?

guys, split the dif & set it to 60hz. really don't let it drive you too nuts, as the 40-80hz range is really just fine tuning. what should make the bigger dif is setting the speaks small or large. the best thing to listen to when comparing settings is real bassy, good quality, 2-channel cds because its all low bass w/ no LFE. i use primus' "pork soda" for my bass mgmt test cd.

fc, have you checked the set-up in the dvd player itself to make sure dts is turned on?

i did call b&k to confirm & like i thought, before i heard that other bogus info, is correct. the low pass in the dsp doesn't mess w/ the LFE. so you shouldn't have to worry about cutting LFE in your processor if you set the crossover lower. todd makes a good point for quality bass. u may want to try big speaks on small &/or dropping the dsp crossover down around or 10-15hz above the bigger speaks low freq capability to see if the bass is better quality. & as todd says, when you're using the sub out on the processor, disable or turn all the way up the crossover on your sub. you don't want that interfering & cutting off LFE.

saw this in an article from 4/02: "Audio Rumor and Fact on Firewire - In January the DVD Forum released its guidelines for the use of Firewire/iLink (IEEE 1394) with the DVD-Audio digital interface. The news release indicated that no digital interface for SACD was planned, leading to the misunderstanding that it would be hampered by being restricted to the present six-channel analog outputs rather than Firewire. Well of course no plans for SACD were announced at the same time - this was the DVD Forum - which wants nothing to do with SACD. Firewire is not dependent on the platform and will be used with both formats eventually. Whats holding it up now is the continuing hassle over digital copy protection systems, which is much more a concern of the DVD-A camp than the SACD proponents due to copying protections built into the DSD/SACD approach. When the new digital interface between nearly everythingelectronics becomes standard, advantages will include: dispensing with six analog cables between the source and receiving equipment for surround, the possibility of better D-A converters and especially analog stages in high-end hardware (vs. including those in players), and bass and time management performed in the superior digital domain rather than in analog." from what bill's saying, it looks like sacd is good to go for high res digital transmission whereas dvd-audio is still hung up on it. nother nice thing about sacd is it'll do 192khz in 6 channels whereas dvd-audio only goes this high on 2 channels. otoh, sounds like the "dvd forum" is anti-sacd, pro dvd-audio.

yo jus tin', is Marshal Mathers (eminem) by any chance related to Jerry Mathers (the beaver)?

i'd listen for bass quality on large vs small. having speaks play full range & the sub go all the way to 80hz before it starts getting low pass filtered could make the bass muddy or boomy or uneven due to room acoustics. do what sounds best to you though. that's what's key - unless somebody is there & using your ears they can't really say for sure. now i've heard that most all receiver & prepros use the algorithm in the dsp where the full range of any channels set large is summed together w/ any LFE/.1, low pass filtered by the dsp sub crossover control (or global crossover that controls both the high pass & low pass crossover/filter) either at the fixed point or where you have it set in the dsp, then sent to the sub through the sub out. now i need to call b&k & ask them about this. so beware when you set the crossover (low pass for sub out) on the hk (or on the sub's crossover control too for that matter) below 80hz, you may be throwing away some upper range lfe. but lfe rarely gets over 100hz i've read. but if you set the crossover to like 60hz it'll start filtering off lfe there too, so like lfe from 60hz on up will start getting tossed away to nowhere. so now it looks best to have the crossover set to 80hz in the dsp for any material that has the LFE/.1 channel. i've put in macros & when i'm doing material that has LFE it auto moves the dsp crossover to 80hz w/ the touch of one button, & when i'm listening to 2-channel music w/o an LFE channel i switch the dsp crossover to 45hz w/ the touch of another button. in sum, beware setting the crossover in the hk any lower than 80hz because you might then be throwing away some upper range LFE.

moon, the one i rented from blockbust had dolby digital 5.1. if its not dts 5.1 then its DD 5.1. well in about 9.9/10 cases anyway. but those are the only 2 doing a comercial 5.1 as far as I know. that's what i'm waiting for - the dts to buy this. i got private ryan in DD 5.1 then they went & came out w/ it in dts. won't be fooled again.

ProDJ, sure, using the analog outputs it will. but so far as i've seen all dvd player makers don't allow for anything over 48k SR to be passed over their digital connections such as coax, optical, or firewire because of copywrite protection. its either a law, fear of law suit from the content producers, their in cahoots w/ the movie/record industry, or all of these. iow, this is the new digital standard for high resolution material issue. that's why to get true high res sound, at least before, you have to connect the dvdp w/ analog connects. what i'm trying to figure out is how these new firewire receivers are getting around the copywrite issue. maybe the new digital standard is here & its firewire. 1st i'm hearing of it. like bill says, if sacd is full bandwidth over firewire now & dvd-audio is not, that's really going to help sacd beat up on dvd-audio i'd think.

bill, you mean on the pioneer dvdp w/ firewire? so if any dvdp has the firewire connection then it will output over 48k to like 96k or 192k? iow, my concern would be that the pioneer receiver is still getting only a 48k sample rate from the player via firewire even if you have a 96k disk playing.

Hey welcome back horned! we missed you. & thank you for the kind words. we were trying to remember on another thread if the C7 horn in its natural state radiates more vertically or horizintal. i thought, & it looks to me, that it radiates more vertically. i thought that's why you turned your c7 speakers (not the horns) vertical for FE - so the horns then radiate more horizontally. hope you are healthy & happy. cheers!

jas, sounds like a good choice for you, especially w/ a marantz (warmer sound imo). the imaging & stage are nice w/ mine out in the stereo listening lounge. some may call me nuts, but i found when i bi-wired them it noticably improved their stereo imaging. any way you could get some home to demo w/ the marantz there?

techie ?: though the dvd-audio (mlp) decoder is in the receiver, wouldn't it still be limited by the copywrite protection (48k sampling rate max) from the dvd player digital output? or are some players such as the denon 9000 getting around that too?

zdoug, i liked the b&k sound w/ klipsch so much i bot the ref 30 & 7270 power amp. excellent clarity yet not harsh on the mid/highs. clean tight bass too. from what i hear, b&k uses the same circuitry & components in the receivers as the equivalent pre/pro. in the case of the 507 that should be the new ref 50 pre/pro. i've found the manual for that (attached below). also check over at hometheaterforum.com as bill says, b&k told me the same. no noise filters or mute circuits are used because they can make the sound lower quality & the circuitry less discrete causing crosstalk between channels. disclaimer: again, you really need to demo tham at least somewhere else, or its essentially a roll of the dice of how you'll like 'em. also unauthorized dealers won't get you the 5 year warranty direct from b&k. i admit i went online, unauthorized to buy, but i listened to 'em at another guy w/ the ref 30 & klipsch 1st. Ref_50_manual.pdf

bill, thanks. i have heard of some somehow getting around that protection. maybe they're testing the legal waters. if so, i'm rooting for them. guess we'll see. yes i could imagine after getting that 9000. that copy protection obsticle sucks.

pf, sounds like often & in your case just a few inches make the dif. & it makes more dif getting the magnets further away from the tube. keep in mind the farther apart the speaks up to a point the better seperation you get anyway. also usually better to have the woofs firing to the sides, but do which sounds best to you. i though they put both bucking magnets & shielding cups on each driver magnet. so to check for bucking mags you may have to remove the shielding cups. the woofers sound like the problem though. bucking magnets are just a second magnet glued/attached to the back of the driver mags in the way that they repel the magnatism. you may want to check w/ tech support/customer service at 1-800-KLIPSCH. myself i'd just seperate them more out from the tv, unless that puts them too far out for sound reasons, or makes them too much of an obsticle.

bbb, if you run the digital audio from the box to a different input/jack of the onk does it still dropout on hbo 5.1 broadcasts? then again maybe you don't want to have to mess w/ all that rewiring & switching. i'd have to use a page to explain how I have everything wired up. & i abhor having to change anything now. but agree, that definitely sounds like a compatiability thing between hbo, dolby & onk. but trying the above would eliminate that or not as being a fix. & it should be easy to try. better yet, just unhook the 2 analog audio connections on the onk & see if that cures it.

kain, if you go that route, you just use 5-7 probably real short like 1/2 meter analog cables w/ rca plugs. i use 1/2 meter audioquest sidewinders that cost about $60 for 6 of 'em from a net dealer like audioadvisor.com or if you get a pre/pro & amp w/ balanced (xlr) connectors & want to use those it may run you a lil higher cost for some good quality there. but rca connects/inerconnects should be fine for real short runs like between the pre & amp.

pf, they are shielded. you must have a sensitive tv cause when i had the rp-3 & 5 right next to my tv no problem whereas did have w/ the new klf-30 (not shielded) in the same spots. or maybe somehow they didn't get shielded. you may want to check them out or send/take them in to do so. or can you move them any farther from the tv?

bill, sorry i left out the denon 5800 above. yes its also upgradable. wonder if all the new 03 models are now easy upgradable as well - like the 3803? & that's the 1st i've heard of the firewire & dvd-audio/sacd decoder in the receiver or pre/pro. have they finally gotten around the industry copywrite protection? that is that a digital connection can't pass higher than a 48k sampling rate. that would be great news for an upgrade for my pre/pro (it has an ieee port that's been waiting for the new digital standard for dvd-audio/sacd).

if you don't prefer to run video through your unit for video switching, you can always use a relative low cost composite video cable from a free input jack for a device not used on the unit, to video 2 or video 3 on the tv to still get the on-screen display. you then just have to do the switching on both the unit & tv to get it, via remote preferably w/ a macro that does it.

bbb, it sounds like the entire digital audio signal is dropping on you all together. before i thought you meant it was dropping from a 5.1 to 2.0 but still ac-3 2.0 (digital). i just watched some of that "heist" on hboW & no problem - digital 5.1 all the way. but like i mentioned I have the digital audio & s-video cables running to different input jacks on the pre/pro. i did that when i was getting a dropout before & maybe it was just hbo (don't remember. you might want to try that. only downside is you have to switch back & forth for analog vs digital audio channels. but it cured my digital audio dropout - i think because the analog audio was conflicting w/ the digital audio on the digital channels when both were being run into the same input on the pre/pro.

dougz, in a nutshell the mc-1, the b&k 507, B&K reference pre/pros, & the pioneer all have dolby/thx EX decoders. but the mc-1 is thx ultra & has a dolby EX decoder whereas the pioneer & others are thx ultra 2. also you should note that some of these are pre/pros & some are receivers. w/ the pre/pros you also need to get a good power amp. sorry if this you know already. i think what the guy was trying to say that since both logic 7 & or any thx tech are post-processing "modes", the logic 7 is still better than the thx ultra2 even w/ its advanced steering & all. & J agrees. i haven't had any direct listening experience w/ either logic 7 or thx ultra2 myself. my pre/pro is a "simple" thx ultra ex. i agree w/ mrm too that dts es is the better encoding format. now my prepro has a dts encoder, but i can do thx ultra post-processing on top of that. so i won't get true dst es decoding until i get an upgrade (also a good feature to consider - easy & available upgradibility). a lot of confusion comes from thx - they seem to try to make people think that they need thx to do EX decoding. not true. EX was a collaboration between dolby & thx. but it was dolby that handled the encoding/decoding work. but now that they have gone their seperate ways you may see dolby EX &/or thx EX on material & processors. point is both have dolby EX decoders. i'd also look for dts es matrix & discrete decoding (or one that can upgrade to it easily). the only way to really find out which has the sound you like is to demo them at home w/ your system & try the different modes w/ different material, including those dvd w/ EX encoding. i'd also consider how upgradable each is if you don't want it to become obsolete in the near future.