jdm56

OK, I'm looking at high-value, high wattage amps here. I can get a pair of Outlaw 2200 monoblocks for $700. Don't know if shipping is free or not. On the other hand, J&R has the Adcom GFA-5500 on sale for $838, delivered. Both are rated 200W @ 8 Ohms, cont. The Outlaws, if you are not familiar with them, are a "class G" design, which I'm a little iffy on. I'm not sure if they would sound as good as I know the Adcom would. They would be driving a pair of somewhat higher than average efficiency speakers of the "direct/reflecting" kind [] at everything from a whisper to full tilt boogie levels. I'm a little concerned about whether Adcom will be around in the future -if that matters- as they seem to be of mighty low profile lately. Anywho, just lookin' for opinons; especially if you have any experience with the Outlaws. Thanks, Doug

Actually determining the best sounding recording in my collection would take a long time and woud not be much fun...but I'll tell you what recording immediately came to mind:

3-D might be cool of it wasn't for those silly glasses. I just can't see myself sitting in front of the gizmotron with those dorky glasses on. What's the real world look like through them...4D? Hey, that IS what I want; glasses that open up the forth dimension. And if they are also X-Ray so I can see the girlie's ta-ta's, that'd be swell. Just so I don't get sucked into that 4th dimension and get squeezed through some kind of worm hole and get squirted out in the dark ages. That would totally suck. Totally.

Now that's funny. And true.I had AK3 k-horns for a few years and LS2's for a few months, and: I didn't like the low height of the LS2, but I think it was really just all in my head, cuz it passed the stand up / sit down test beautifully. I felt the LS2, out along a wall, imaged much better than the k-horns in corners, in terms of depth and specificity, but k-horns produced a bigger, more life-like presentation. The k-horns had tons of bass (in the right room), while the LS2's required subs in my room & set-up (not necessarily in yours). On the other hand, in the wrong room, k-horns are useless w/o modifying either the speaker or the room. LS2's look to squat and boxy, while k-horns stand tall and proud. Plus the LS-2 actually intrudes more into your living space than k-horns that are snugged into corners. I wish I still had'em both.[:'(]

If not, this should give you an idea...

Well, I guess I'll have to wait a while longer to upgrade my component video-only A/V receiver! Maybe I'll just skip HDMI all together. The worst thing is that to maintain compatibility, makers will for years have to jam multiples of FOUR video connections --composite, component, HDMI, and now ethernet-- on the back of their receivers and pre/pro's. "Gettin' Mighty Crowded"!

Six degrees of separation . . . I bet you know somebody who knows somebody who can buy this in a PX and ship it back. Try it. I dare you. You're probably right. If I was in the market, I might just try that too, but then I would wonder about warranty and service considerations... BTW, check out the very nice, matching SACD player. It would make for a killer rig!

That is VERY cool! ...Better than a beer sign!!

Point taken.[^o)]

Europe and Asia, that is. They get all the best stuff! It really ticks me off. If it's two-channel and really cool, they have it and we don't. Boo-Freakin'-Hoo. [:'(]

Your speakers look absolutely great. You did a wonderful job with them. Thank you for sharing your experience.

Thanks! ...and sure, I could live with LS2 bass. All I had to do was crank up the bass on my amp about 6-9dB and things sounded a lot better. Except for that annoying layer of grunge I get whenever I switch the tone controls into the circuit. (Dang, ain't it always somethin'?) I also tried moving the big ol' horns into the corners, but it killed the glorious imaging I got out along the wall. So, my experience with the LS2 bass deficiency may have been more of an amp deficiency on my part. That little Onkyo amp sounds really nice and open, but with a damping factor of like, 80 or something, I doubt it is the last word in bass makin'. BTW, I called the dealer about the $2800 cornwalls and it turns out they're down to one speaker left. Sold one yesterday leaving them with one single. And they don't expect new stock for 90 days. And that would probably be back at the list price of $3750/pr. So...scratch that option, at least for the time being. But they do still have La Scala II's -at the still high price of $4600/pr. I'm afraid that might be a hard sell with the Mrs. I could tell her it's 23% off the $6000 list (She loves a discount!), but I doubt that'd be enough. Now if I could get a her a lifetime discount at Kohl's...[^o)]

Hmm...the bigger number is the smaller horn and the smaller number is the bigger horn? --Oh, why must life be so confusing?? Well, if I learn nothing else today, I've at least learned that.[8-|] Ya know, I have thought about having a cabinet maker build the boxes, and I agree: one-inch mdf would be good. For that brief, shining moment of time when I had La Scala II's in-house, I actually spent a good portion of my listening time re-imagining the speakers, if you know what I mean. I would be enjoying the music but then I'd think "If only they were a bit taller...and narrower...or angled up a smidge. And gee, what if you just stripped out the bass bin and converted that whole bottom section to a ported box? Pad down the horns a bit and the overall response would be smoother and subs would not be needed! So as great as the LS2 is, there were issues I had with them, alot of it to do with the squat, refrigerator-like appearance (I know, I'm so shallow!) and the lack of low end weight. But then I'd come to my senses. What do I know about designing speakers? (nada) What real chance would I have of improving the la scala sound? (Again, nada) What are the odds I'd spend a lot of money and time on something that would probably end up in the landfill? (Pretty strong, actually) So that's where I'm at and why that when I see a good (or at least fair) deal on klipsch heritage, I take notice. Plus, my wife always says the '85 cornwalls we had were the best speakers we've ever had. And maybe she is right, at least when all factors are considered (size,price,performance, etc.). So who knows? $2800 is still a lot of money, too (new corns). But a person could sure sink a lot of time and money in home brew and still not be satisfied in the end. Those new cornwalls keep looking better all the time. ...but of course if I could come across a nice pair of used oak/oil cornwalls for the right price, then maybe I could put your "little" K510 horn in those...convert them to a 2-way, throw away the x/o and get an active, and blah-blah-blah...etc........ETC........ETC!!! ................................[]

Whoa! That 510 is a monster!! I'm sure my wife would just love that in her house![] Now, the 402 - I could live with that. I just love lookin' at yours and others pictures of their builds. Just don't know if I could pull it off to my satisfaction. I'm not totally helpless -I built the computer table I'm typing on at this very moment, in fact. It's just that a table is one thing. A pair of speakers quite another. And I am super fanatically picky about my speakers. I don't know if I could build a pair up to my standards! Definitely something to consider, though.

I know the dimensions look k-horn friendly, but one corner is open to two hallways, one corner has a sliding glass exterior door, and the other two share a short dimension that consists of a stepped wall capped with a 7-8" deep wooden shelf we put family pictures on. It's about 46" above the floor -nothing may extend above it, blocking the pictures (by order of the mistress of the house). So k-horns are non-starters. Besides, the sweet spot for a pair of k-horns in the short wall corners would be only 7.5 ft. out into the room's 22' length! I don't like the sound of that...although I'm sure the sound would still be good. False corners might offer a possibiliy for cornerhorns, but they'd still be blocking the shelf behind them. Darn those domestic engineers and their unreasonable demands! I don't know why klipsch doesn't offer a "bighorn" cornwall! All they'd have to do is build the cabinet to accomodate the depth of the K400. The other dimensions could be tweaked to maintain ideal cab. volume for the woofer. Unless I'm missing something (which I usually am) it doesn't look like too big a challenge for the bright boys in Indy and Hope.

k-horns are out of the question. Just a poor fit for my 15x22 room - the only workable corners are on a short wall. Cornscalas sound intriguing, but I don't think my woodworking tools are up to the task ( hand tools and a table saw). To say nothing of my total ignorance of designing /building a cross-over. Golly, I do love that k400 sound, but sweet Mary, mother of Todd, $4600 is a boatload of green...and then you still need a pair of good subs. Or at least I would, due to my extreme O-C tendencies. The cornwalls are what I need. This I know. But after having lived with the LSII's for awhile I don't know if I'd be satisfied...DRAT! If the best things in life are free, then how come La Scala's aren't??

Greetings from the hi-fi wastelands of southwest MO! Long time / no post, so I thought I'd just drop in to see what condition your conditions were in. Looks like a lot of the old guard is still on patrol, but lots of new ones too. Actually, I did have a question...now where'd I put that thing...hang on... OK, here we go: New CWIII's for $2800, no subs needed; or new LSII's for $4600 plus subs, for use with two-channel music and cheap electronics (read: solid state and digital). $4600 is a LOT of moo-lah...makes the CW's look like a bargain at $2800, especially considering the LS's relative lack of bass (although I don't know what fish really has to do with anything). But then on the other hand, that la scala / k-horn midrange is magical, so...what y'all think?

I don't know how this CD sounds...and I don't really care![6]

OK, so I was watching CMT Cribs the other day, and I see Tanya Tucker's home is featured. So remembering Trey's trip to Tuckerville a few years ago to update her horns (and who knows what else[]), I thought I'd watch for a glimpse. So I watched the whole segment, and though Tanya does have a lovely and very tasteful home (and a couple of sweet Harleys, too), I never saw the mighty Tuckerhorns. So what gives? Are they in a different house? (I hear tell some of them big shot sangers have houses all over the place.) Or has she traded them for in-walls? (now that she not only tastes good but has good taste).

Funny, I have the opposite experience with horns. The Heresy II, La Scala and Klipschorn all completely disapear and I have never been able to do that with regular speakers. Yeah, that is funny...no explanation from me...cuz I don't have one! It just always seemed to me that the narrower the dispersion of a given speaker, the more localizable as a sound source it was - the less it disappeared into the acoustic.

Well, uh...yer typical audiophool-issue Radio Shack analog spl meter.[:$] ...With the corrections for that devices known deviations from flat response factored in, thank you very much.[] And of course the room was a factor. The room is always a factor. Anechoic measurements, while convenient for engineers (no offense), are pretty much irrelevant to the end user, other than for comparison purposes. And yes, mic and speaker placement must affect the figures; but I listen in a real room, a reverberant space; not an anechoic chamber. So I put the mic wher my big, fat head is, and I put the speakers where they sound best. It's messy, but I don't know any better way...because at the end of the day, I really don't care how a speaker measures under anechoic conditions. I care how it sounds in my room. Ya know, I think I could be happy with an LS2 on it's own (no subs)...if I had too. As long as I had a pre with a good bass tone control that didn't muck up the lower mids too much. I actually tried my LS2's that way for a bit, and while I did like the sound, the knowledge of what I was missing was too much! Subs and LS2's are a killer combination -- provided you don't mind spending that much money and giving up that much floor space!![*-)]

My LS2's, out of the corners, with no subs or EQ, and measured at the listening position, were essentially flat down to 200Hz. They dropped off below that point: By 100Hz they were down about 6dB. By 50Hz, they were down 9+dB, with no usable response below that. Granted, every set-up is different, but unless you are lucky enough to have a very synergistic set-up, or don't care about flat response down to 30Hz or so, biamping, EQ, subs, or some combination of the three is required. Just my humble opinion, of course. That said, properly sub'd LS2's are my favorite heritage speakers. (I've never heard "cornscalas", "jubescalas" or jubilees.)

Mainly, I think it's just a question of how much output capability you want. If you want to fill a theater with good, clean, LOUD sound, you need high sensitivity speakers, period. A typical home living space...well, not so much. This of course, doesn't address other qualitative differences in low-eff / hi-eff designs. Even at moderate volumes in smaller spaces, high-sensitivity designs have an ease that I attribute to their drivers not having to work as hard, that lo-sens. designs just lack. Lower sensitivity speakers often sound like they are rounding off transient peaks. Hi-eff designs don't sound that way to me. Of course there is always give and take: I love the way my Energy speakers disappear into the sound stage when set-up and fed properly. That's a quality I've never been able to duplicate with horns, although the LS2 does a much better job in this regard than any other horn speaker I've used. The Energys also provide for a wide sweet spot; something high sensitivity designs usually don't. The ideal speaker would be both highly effecient and would recreate a three-dimensional soundstage over a broad listening area. Tell me if you find one!

It's actually a very good, medium-sized room; about 9x15x22, with a corner that opens to two halls; one of the best-sounding rooms I've had. But admittedly, it is a little small for La Scala-sized sound, especially if you factor in a pair of La Scala caliber subs. I'm getting superb results in this room now using a pair of Energy RC50's with the same two Velodyne subs I used with the LS2's (DLS4000R's). Measured response is essentially flat down to 25Hz. But of course, as always, I miss the klipsch slam, clarity and ease. Like Islander said, the LS2 has qualities most other speakers can't approach, while the LS2 weaknesses can be addressed. It just takes money...and floor space![] When I had the LS2's, I was pleasantly surprised at their three-dimensionality, at least for horns. That was set up along the short wall, out 2-3 feet from the corners. Later, I tried putting the 'Scalas in the corners to improve the mid to upper bass, which it did, but I lost the 3D quality. Suddenly, the speakers were all too obvious as sound sources. I hate when that happens.[] Anyway, long story short, I got in a money pinch and sold them. I looked for a bargain and picked up the Energys, but when finances are on the upswing again, the siren call of klipsch heritage may beckon...so I want to have a plan if or when; a plan for addressing my few performance concerns: essentially, "Where's the bass?"

They aren't broken. They may not have lots of really low bass, but they have many strengths that other speakers don't have to the same degree, like clarity, soundstaging, dynamics and big sound, even some more expensive speakers. It's easy to add a sub to fill in the low end, and that gives you a really potent team of speakers. It's not so easy to give other speakers what La Scalas already have. You also mentioned: "I crossed mine to a pair of Velo subs at 100Hz and got good results. I would like to have tried a higher x/o, but was limited by the subs built-in x/o." I'm crossing mine over at 150Hz and it gives a smooth and accurate sound. If you'd tried different subs, you might have been even more impressed with your speakers. I'm very familiar with the LS2's strengths and weaknesses after living with them for 9 months. And I agree with your assessment, other than I would say they not only have no deep bass (below 50Hz), they are also shelved down below 200Hz or so. So even the mid and upper bass is balanced a bit on the thin side. At least, this was my experience...could have been something about my particular set-up, though. So what I'm really raising the question about is whether or not the LS2 could be a better balanced speaker...and for the average owner, passive bi-amping is the easiest way of accomplishing it, providing the amps for either the bass or the mid/hi horns has level controls so the relative level can be controlled. And you have to wonder whether a different x/o could even do better! If Klipsch was willing to sacrifice a little mid-range sensitivity, they could have produced a speaker essentially flat down to the bass horns lower limit. It might not be a better speaker, but I'd be interested in hearing it! I