Chris A

I didn't expand on the comment "it makes a lot of sense" : I think your argument above is pretty much where I believe you are headed. If you are going to use a sub anyway (with its attendant power compression and harmonics) in a HT-like setup, why have such a large lf bass bin as the Jub lf? The KPT-942-T has higher sensitivity than other direct radiators, the better to keep up with the K-402/K-69 mf/hf section. Just seems to make a lot of sense. Additionally, it takes up less room and is probably a lot less manpower intensive to build than the lf Jub horn.A lot of folks like the higher THD of direct radiator bins - just read all the threads on the Servodrive BassTech 7 and ContraBass and why they get trashed (i.e., people push them until they can hear the distortion since they had less than their competitors, but then wind up breaking the drive belts). Chris

jc, Makes a lot of sense to go that way--are these 2 channel or part of a HT? Chris

Assuming the above is sufficiently off-topic to warrant its own thread, I might ask why no one has asked about using a KPT-942-T? What is the price of that?

Just some thoughts: In either orientation I would consider bass traps in two corners (any corner) and "first bounce" diffusers on at least the walls halfway to your listening position (see http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/99049.aspx?PageIndex=2). I recommend looking at Ready Acoustics Super Sub-Bass Traps: (http://www.readyacoustics.com/index.php?go=products.proddetails∏=RT426) or the DIY bags which are very good, if you can find the acoustic panels locally. The traps will smooth the standing wave notches a great deal, making your sweet spot wider. Listen for a reduction in listening variation as you move your listening position left-right. The Khorns would also probably do well with ceiling diffusers since in the region around 500-2000 Hz the IF horn has reduced vertical directivity control. It might also help with the sound of pianos and female voices. I would guess that the soundstage holds together better with the Khorns on the short wall. The area behind the couch with the opening to the "L" portion of the room is probably better behind you instead of beside your listening position. I would think about placing something that will diffuse the early reflections on the wall with window to the right of the window to make it more symmetric acoustically. Chris A.

Addressing the PWK article, point by point. Things were a little different in 1972 than they are now: 1) Instrumentation is a bit better now even if you consider very expensive time and frequency domain analyzers from that period with inexpensive gear now. Some of the comments about the effects of active vs. passive frequency response and relative phasing in the crossover regions lead me to believe that the instrumentation limitations may not have been as evident to PWK then. Looking at Klipsch's crossover designs from that time period would lead me to believe that this is a major factor. 2) Protection of drivers via protection limiters is now available as a standard feature on DSP amplifiers and other active crossover gear--that wasn't true then. 3) Amplifer power - today's high-quality power amplifiers (SS) are still in excess of what is needed to drive horn-loaded speakers. The up side is that it is very inexpensive now--it wasn't then. 4) Putting active crossovers in the hands of those today: well, the cost of all that measurement gear is now much less. I think that trade today is in the favor of "put a few sheckels into some measurement gear". That wasn't possible then. It would have cost 10s of thousands of dollars, corrected to current year, to do that in 1972. 5) I can hear the differences when I change my active crossover settings on the fly - I don't know if PWK could do that in 1972. Maybe that would have caused him to change his mind. I see where some misunderstanding of the urban myth of "golden ears" might have started then--use of one's ears to balance speaker networks was an advantage then. I don't think it is now because of the economics of measurement equipment have changed. To measure a home setup then was prohibitively expensive but not now. If you want to take the time now to measure, the economics are in your favor. Just think about the time spent to build custom cabinets and crossovers and compare that to active crossovers/amplifers with that build time instead spent measuring and correcting (yes, I'm talking about "minimum phase here" so you can relax). It is possible now to correct for having more people in the room and have those settings ready to change on the fly. That was not true in 1972. 6) It is now much cheaper to provide active crossovers, embedded in the Crown XTi for instance plus you get amplification, than to buy a set of passive crossovers from any third party today. This is the part that got my attention when I went to invest. Cost always matters. 7) It would be great if Klipsch (Hope, AR) published active crossover settings, EQ and delay for "real" polyamplification of its Heritage series (i.e., removal of the passive networks from the circuitry) but I'm sure that Roy and others there need to spend their time on things that will increase their bottom line. I'm not sure Roy could sell the systematic testing and publishing of results for each Heritage speaker system and still turn a profit. However, amateurs might be able to do that for him, assuming they would be willing to collaborate with guidance(?). Bottom line stuff: A) Active crossovers are not as effective in improving sound as would buying a better speaker system to start with. The trade for crossovers is dominated by driver/horn trades and room acoustics, then crossovers, probably in that order. Other electronics and connector/cabling issues are down the list. It's much cheaper today to realize active crossovers and assocated test instrumentation than in 1972. C) I believe that credit must be given to home enthusiasts to be able to learn by doing, rather than assuming that complexity will overwhelm informed consumers. All the arguments that PWK puts forward are apologetics for passive crossovers, i.e., he isn't arguing that actives are inferior but that passives are not inferior. I think time and economics have changed that equation.

This has got to be the most interesting forum on the web...short of the Ann Coulter blogs, of course...Chris

This is a really nice one, at least on my speakers...Chris

Most rooms are a lot deeper and wider than they are high. The 402's design accommodates this. Near-field reflections where the total path length to your ear is less than about 40-50 feet are a problem for the listener due to the way we process sound. We want to control these reflections and it is much more desirable to control their directivity into the room than to use absorbant material for frequencies above about 500 Hz. Below a rectangular horn's lowest controlled frequency in both the vertical or horizontal directions, the horn effectively loses directional control and behaves more like a direct radiator. Pianos and female voices sound strange and somehow distorted. The 402 is the first horn I can recall that I've listened to that is designed to control its radiation pattern in both vertical and horizontal directions down to the lower crossover frequency. This is also where the antenna analog comes in: it takes a big antenna (in our case a horn antenna) to do this. Turning that antenna 90 degrees doesn't get you what you want.

Thanks Mike - I was looking for that.Chris

Not trying to rain on your parade, but my two cents: The 402 is really designed to have higher control of its vertical dispersion to control ceiling and floor bounce. Turning the horn on end would create more near-field reflections from these two sources (and few people apply ceiling treatments). Since the ear isn't linear with respect to near field bounce (Haas effect), this will result in the perception that the 402 is producing too much midrange and will sound more "smeared" in the sound stage. I believe the 402 controlled vertical dispersion is a big part of why it sounds so much better than the speaker is was supposed to replace. (Yes, I'm saying just the opposite of Edgar.) Chris

Well if we are sharing favorite CDs and DVDs, some include: James Newton Howard & Friends Probably the standard by which almost all other stereo CDs can be measured. Mr. Howard is actually backed up by members of the band Toto (the Porcaro brothers and David Paich). Silver Rain by Marcus Miller He has a recording history including David Sanborn and Miles Davis. This CD really gets your attention, but I'm a little biased with the Jubs sitting in my room. BASS, and more BASS - and this isn't hard bop--funk and soul here. Blues Singer by Buddy Guy This one is a sleeper - acoustic blues but you should see the guys backing him, including Clapton, Keltner, B.B. King, etc.. This one grabs everyone's attention with its "in the room" feel. I'm not a blues aficionado, but this one is in my top ten for sure. Best of Chesky Jazz- Vols. 1 and 2 Well, what can I say. If you want to know what your system will do, try these. They blow away other "test CDs" I've heard. Stepping Out by Diana Krall Wow - this one was an instant hit in our place, but I like swinging piano jazz. Something Cool by Tierney Sutton The recorded sibilances are good on this one (female jazz vocalist). Also try her Dancing in the Dark CD. Her pianist is superb. Swingin' For The Fences (DVD-A) by Gordon Goodwin's Big Phat Band The 5.1 DVD is a real treat--a true surround sound experience. This is 21st Century big band--tight and demanding of your sound system. Live in Paris - by Diana Krall (DVD-V) I would say the word "sultry" sums this one up. By the time you get to the 10th number in their set, they've forgotten the audience and they're pumping out the improv like a locomotive. Famous Blue Raincoat - The Songs Of Leonard Cohen (Gold Edition) Many tracks off this album are extremely good for female voice with various accompaniments. Chris

I assume that you're talking about an installation drawing--an engineering drawing, from my experience, is the one that is used to make the part(s) and assemblies. In that case, an installation drawing would detail the bolt-up sections and the overall dimensions. If you need any more dimensions, let us know. Chris

Thanks. It would be so much easier if there were just some engineering drawings available. Greg I don't think that the horn is a strict tractrix shape. Here is another view - you'll see a non-uniformity in the horn about 2/3 of the distance to the mouth. Good luck on the engineering drawing. It may be easier to acquire a real one.

Still in the "I wonder if they'll fit" stage right now. Thanks. I need the three measurements indicated in the attached rough sketch; the overall length, the approximate "length" of the throat, and the width of the mounting flanges. The rest I can get from the Klipsch brochure. Greg Another view...

The connectors. XLR connectors are 3-pin "professional" connectors that you generally can't buy off the shelf from RadioShack. RCA connectors are the ones that you can buy from RadioShack. I go to Guitar Center locally to buy XLR stuff. XLR is clearly superior in noise/EMI characteristics. But if you've got a rack full of components that have RCA connectors (most of us do...) then you can spend a fortune buying RCA/XLR adapters. Chris P.S. Thanks for the reply, Richard, on the Dx-38--I couldn't imagine that it didn't have attenuators available to the user. That's a good portion of the job of a "balancing crossover network", as Roy puts it.

Sounds like the Dx-38 doesn't have the ability to do attenuation like the XTi does...bummer.

Look at the Crown XTi series. Everything in one package (crossover, delay, EQ) for less than $500/speaker biamping. You also get 48 db/octave crossover capability. Look at the free "System Architect" application from Harman Kardon (Crown's parent company) to understand all the capabilities of this amp/DSP combination. Other than that, the Electrovoice DX-38 active crossover is the most often used among the Jub crowd. Unfortunately, it's a bit more pricey for what you get, but you can use your existing amplifiers if you go this way. The Behringer Ultradrive Pro DCX2496 is also used, but fewer advocates exist for this product. Chris

It does...[H] So does Buddy Guy's Blues Singer. Good ideas, thanks. It opens up the options. I need to set up a list of alternatives and weigh the WAF of each with the boss. I didn't know about and didn't think about IKEA storage and mounting hardware--I'll have to visit my local store. IKEA apparently believes in economy of store locations--our store is a 1+ hour drive from our hacienda.

Hi Flash! Roy Delgado (alias "bodcaw boy", http://forums.klipsch.com/members/bodcaw-boy.aspx) is the guy you need to hook up with. He is a Klipsch engineer who worked with Paul Klipsch on the Jubilee bass horns and has been the proponent of the 2-way home system (I own a pair of these). If you are thinking about ever ordering a pair, Roy's the guy who will help you. He frequents this forum often so he'll probably find you if you don't find him first. The 2-way (home) Jubs do not come with passive crossover networks: a large majority of Jub owners are running either Crown XTi amps, which contain equalization, delay and active crossovers (my configuration), or they are running an ElectroVoice active crossover and their favorite amps (one stereo amp or two monoblocks per speaker). Correcting for delay is a big deal for the Jubs, and the active crossovers in both setups do this job that the passive crossovers really could never do. They also allow you to change the crossover settings on the fly, and do 24 or 48 dB/octave crossovers much more effectively and cheaply than passives. Roy has had a Jubilee driven by a Crown XTI-1000 in Klipsch's anechoic chamber to determine the "flat" settings for them. The results (EQ, crossover and delay settings) of this amp/speaker pairing are published on this forum (see link below). It's hard to describe the experience of listening to the Jubs. I'll let others on the forum try to describe relative to Khorns. The Jubilee project was meant to replace the Khorn when Paul and Roy worked on it. If you need more info, just ask - there are a few owners that frequent this forum. Also see http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/97984.aspx Regards, Chris A

From Coytee: "The 2 way version isn't shown on the forum but is available as a special order. The 'standard' 3-way version is in the cinema lineup and IS shown on the forum, but that is not what we're using. You can read this thread and get a drift on what the deal is, OR just do a search on Jubilee and grab a pot of coffee http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/77599/767705.aspx#767705 The delivery pictures are on about page 11." "This is for the 3 way version http://www.klipsch.com/products/details/kpt-jubilee-535.aspx

If your friend's speakers are in the picture then your friend has an outstanding way to integrate them into the room [:$] I don't see them. But the wire screen front is good in this shot. My wife thinks that our horns themselves are a conversation piece, albeit in a more finished condition such as walnut or rosewood bass cabinet fronts. I actually have another problem - I use bass traps above my speakers that I'd like to hide (see pic below). I'm thinking about bookcases above my speakers in the corners but they are going to be interesting to build and still house the big horns below them. I'd like to find a more generic solution than custom-built bookcases but that approach may be the best looking. The idea about screens in front is much more "generic" and easy to construct. But, you point out that this solution doesn't lend itself to real multi-purpose room implementation. I've seen a picture of Cornwalls integrated down low into an entertainment center similar to the one you show. It was very good looking. The advantage of the Cornwalls is that their ports are on the front, allowing them to be mounted flush into an entertainment center. The Jubilees I show actually radiate directly into the room with no ports on the back. I'm trolling for ideas on how to integrate these type of units and also electronics and CD/DVD libraries.

True that (the sole purpose comment). Note that I still cannot see your pic-are you uploading via the "Options" tab, then "Add/Update" button? This is what I currently am looking at:

Did you post a pic or a URL to a pic? On another note: I was looking at some HT pix and saw something for the "corners" that looked interesting. http://www.sihometheater.com/photos/displayimage.php?pid=80&fullsize=1 Although this isn't a regular room or the actual corners of the room, I think the idea is there.

When I buy CDs online now, if there is an older version and a newer "remixed version", guess which one I buy now? The prices are also much cheaper for used un-remixed CDs. []