cc1091

I discovered the news only today of PWK's death. I will memorialize him by playing my Heresy's LOUD tonight. Long live the company he founded.

Forrest - How could you possibly take that stand when in another thread you are so adamantly FOR individualism? CC

I've heard much (though not a lot lately) about the rumored Jubilee. I expect it to be too large for my use in an average size home and too expensive for me to get my hands on. Still, I look forward to hearing it if my local dealer decides that they can stock anything beyond Klipsch Reference series (another gripe, another thread). Like I said in my original post on this thread, If the Cornwall is reintroduced, the Heresy should be discontinued in its present format. I think we have hashed out the specifics of that stance already. No need to go into it further. I have always enjoyed the Cornwall sound. If I were able to afford them when I purchased my Heresys in 1981, I would have. I just couldn't swing that hefty of an introductory price. By the time I was able to invest that much in stereo again, the Cornwall was no longer on the market, and it would be too large for my uses anyway. It would be good to see them back in the lineup. But I'm not sure the niche it would fill would produce significant sales. Thanks for starting the thread though. CC1091

The bass of the Heresy becomes very unfocused around 100 hz. When placed on the floor (which I did for ten years), the extra resonances do not add any musicality to the bass. I can sing nearly as deep as this speaker can produce good sound. I cannot approach the depth and quality of sound of a bass cello, not to mention a full range of other instruments. The best position for the Heresy is on a stand that is one to two feet high and angled 3 to 5 degrees upward. This also seems to limit (but not cure) the annoying vibrations at about 100hz. While I don't care if Klipsch produces a powered speaker or not, I would like Klipsch to produce a serious audiophile speaker that is as revered as most of the Heritage line, and can be used to hear all the ambient information on recordings as well as the full spectrum that a pipe organ can produce. 17Khz is nealy enough unless your ears can hear 23khz. 50hz is good unless your playing one of the many instruments that extend further. There's nothing wrong with asking for modernizations and improvements if they can be found and easily implimented.

Deang - WOW..Good position paper. I may not like RF-7s, but your posts here are truely worthy. maxg - once again clear minded and something I can agree on. Mike Stehr -Scorched earth? good observation. funny too. Jethro B - Its good to hear another voice from Arkansas here. Good points about the perceived alliance with TM. Glad everyone appears to refute that assumption. Forrest I'm not trying to limit your first amendment rights, you can speak out as you wish. What I have a problem with is your propensity to defend your point of view by: 1. insulting others 2. labeling them something that YOU think is objectionable (regardless of what civilized world thinks) 3. degrading them in such a way that they will hesitate to oppose you. (the scorched earth policy the Mike Stehr refers too I believe) I must admit, I cannot label you. You proclaim ultra conservative values, then switch positions to proclaim support jews and the first amendment and individualism. Then you proclaim that you are a Libertarian? There are only two conclusions that I can make here in light of your posts. So without insulting you or the intelligence of others, I will refer everyone who reads this to refer to your previous posts on this thread and draw their own conclusions about you from your words. BTW - Free Speech, and the rights of the individual are liberal concepts. The Bill of Rights is what "liberal" organizations like the ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union) defend. It too is a liberal based idea. Collectivism is a communist idology. Communism is on the right hand side of the political agenda (next to the ultra conservatives). I'm not sure who you are learning your political ideology from, but they are obviously not familiar with the simple principles or right and left in politics.

Interesting your definition of the Heritage line (and it certainly applies too). I would not be as limiting. I would allow for possible future expansion by saying that the classic drivers (or reasonable facsimilies) with a classic crossover (can we still get oil filled caps?) mounted in one of the classic cabinets OR some newer cabinet combined with somewhat more classic dirvers and crossovers to produce a sound that is as good and fits better with modern decor. A "Heritage" must be at least a three way design. (Could we then include models like the Chorus, Forte, and Quartet? Afterall, Klipsch calls these Heritage models in thier list of discontinued products elsewhere on this site) Though I'm sure the Heresy still outsells the rest of the Heritage line by volume and perhaps by revenue too, I think the Reference line and the other lines that Klipsch produces could have marginalized the Heresy in favor of pricer offerings in the Heritage line (as long as you have to special order a Heritage speaker, why settle for something that isn't special). This is why I suggest the need to drop the Heresy if the Cornwall is re-introduced. The point in my "son of Heresy" rant is that though I like the fullness of sound (wide and loud) produced by my Heresys, they have no bass by comparison to anything in their price range on the market today. The combination with the Rp-3 does much to rectify the problem, but the Heresy Tweeter still is not as crystal clear as the RP-3 tweeter (though the RP-3 tweeter lacks the fullness that the Heresy has). Building or reintroducing the Cornwall (which has essentially the same drivers) would have to conquer those problems to be competitive in today's market place. The "son of Heresy" is only a suggestion that something of the Heritage quality needs to appear that successfully combines the older technology of the Classic Heritage line, with some of the newer market realities and capabilities. Some Klipsch owners were looking to the KLF line (at least the KLF20 and especially the 30)to be the flag bearer for the combination of old and new until Klipsch dropped that line in favor of the Reference series. Yes, a redesign would be necessary and would require some research. I guess I forgot that Klipsch seems to be skimping on that lately. "Wood" Choice: If we are discussing a classic Cornwall, then certainly the plywood it has always been built with has to be the answer. Newer design? I'd still like to see the care of real wood, but there are some very nice veneers too. And I don't think anyone can argue aginst the neutral sound qualities of MDF. As for the Cottage Industry, it is already out there (Cornwalls, Klipschorns, Belles, LaScalas, University designs and others too) waiting to serve your unauthorized building needs. Hope this helped to define the multiple paths of thought that I tried to briefly touch on in the earlier post in this thread. It just gets so long when I have to elaborate. This message has been edited by cc1091 on 04-30-2002 at 11:31 PM

Agreed Kenratboy. Good comments maxg. Nice try m00n. KAiN64 - Sorry you had to leave, but I agree it may not be safe with the apparent lunatic fringe hanging about. Hopefully the moderators will moderate the problem child right off the board. HEY!..I guess I'm "an outcast" for owning (and enjoying) my RP-3s! I wonder what the Heresy's that I bought new in 1981 make me then? Note to self, "I must go out and find a Klipsch Rebel for my collection." And as a parting shot: My Governor can beat up your _____. (choose one below) Governor President (by electoral college) President (by popular vote) elected official <politically correct choice> King/Queen Prime Minister Fearless Leader <The anti-Bullwinkle Party> Despotic Ruler General recognized leader unrecognized leader Coup Leader Chewbacca Other (NOTE: This ballot has not been approved for use in Florida and may be determined to be invalid by the United States Supreme Court anyway)

Kenratboy - One of the bad things about bulletin board threads is that sometimes a person can't or doesn't communicate enough about what he has on his mind. In the case of my post above, I was actually jesting toward those who seem to think that only Klipsch info should ever appear on this website (and they would certainly want nothing to do with a political thread, but don't want anyone else to post on that thread either). I am sorry that I did not post enough information to let you understand that in this thread. Now back to the Subaru WRX: When I think of Subarus, I think of that little old redheaded lady in the '70s who used to be in the advertising commercials. Certainly the WRX does not fit that image, and has performed very impressively in rally competition. But I don't know how they will ever shake their image with me.

Hey...this has nothing to do with Klipsch speakers...I don't think we should continue this thread on this forum. Take it to the Subaru website. (sarcasm is a great tool..see the "Wow" thread)

No. I think discussing views like this one can be very enlightening about someone's character. We can see a lot of evidence in this thread already of users with reasonable character on one hand, and people who need to look more critically into the mirror on the other hand. Those who wish to continue this thread and make constructive comments should stay. Those who want to stir trouble will be ignored. Those who wish to have a meaningful dialogue should stay and post your views. I will address those of reasonable character only who clearly wish to remain in the discussion: KAiN64 - I understand my history very well. Repression is not right. Killing people in retribution is not right. I think I clearly said that both sides in this conflict are clearly in the wrong. I don't think anyone wants to go down the path of history and play the game of "who was there first" Please visit the short concise history at http://www.arab.net/palestine/palestine_contents.html. How far do we want to dig into the past to try to settle something that can only be solved by looking ahead to the future. Let's not bury our heads on this.

1. Yes. Because they are much better than the Heresy. Reissue the Heresy in the 16W X 24D as suggested by DJK and call it Son of Heresy 2. Horizontal horn format if it is reissued as a Cornwall. If reissued with vertical format call it "Son of Heresy" and discontinue the Heresy. 3. Choice of wood styles as in the reference line and to inclued black MDF. 4. I defer to the manufacturer's on this one. Please keep defractions to a minimum. 5. No special opions beyond wood color and cloth choices. 6. Price of the latest Heresy plus extra wood cost. 7. NO. Attached here is a preliminary picture of the "Son of Heresy" concept. This message has been edited by cc1091 on 04-28-2002 at 08:49 PM

Political and religious discussions should be relegated to other BBS??? I don't think so. We can keep it within this particular thread. I have enough faith in my fellow Klipsch owners (and would be owners) to trust them to keep their opinions to this thread and recognize that all people have different perspectives (if they agree with mine or not). That said, here is my take: I don't know exactly where this Israeli/Palestinian conflict began, wether it was in 1948 or if it was centuries before during the cursades. I feel very strongly about two things though: 1. Killing people who you don't know by running into a crowd with a belt of explosies tied to your belly (or any other kind of "sacrifical" suicide death) is wrong and a sin against god (whether it be a christian, moslem, or jewish god). 2. Commiting mass destruction and killings in the name of established government aginst a group of people who identify themselves with one particular racial, ethnic or religious group is wrong and aginst god (christiam, moslem or jewish god). May they both burn in hell until they renounce their ways. CC "The lights that burn brightest behind stained glass, will cast the darkest shadows upon the human heart." "The world is on its elbows and knees. Its forgotten the message and worships the creeds!" -Matt Johnson of "The The" "Armageddon Days Are Here (again)"

Uh oh..I'm getting totally off the subject here: I HAVE the KSW10 sub. Despite the fact that the sub uses the same driver under a different part name (I can prove this) as the sub on the RP-3, the sound is vastly different. The sound from the KSW10 is boomy and uncontrolled, the sound from the Rp-3 is smooth accurate and mellow. I believe the difference is the sealed box of the RP-3 versus the ported box of the KSW10 (and perhaps some electronic crossover differences). Numerous speaker manufacturers offer powered speakers of some sort (NHT, B&W come readily to mind). Bryston builds an amplifier that is designed to attach to the back of your speaker. Though I am not going to defend the concept entirely, I do think the design has a market. If it were as inexpensive as a non powered speaker of similar dimensions, I think the sub loaded powered speaker would fare well in the market place. Its that two subs for one exchange that gets it in trouble. I'm afraid I will always group the RF3,5 & 7 together. I will give you the point that the Rf3 & 5 sound closer to each other than the RF-7 sounds to these two, but character of sound is still present (a character I can only describe with the negatives I hear and have described before in this thread). But as a group, they sound and look similar in too many ways to me. Thanks for once again discussing this topic. Its good to find people on the BBS who are willing to have a discussion where they don't (and probably won't) whole-ly agree. I'm kind of tired of reading about people complaining about how unfriendly the BBS has become over the drop of a hat (I last saw this on the 2 channel audio forum). I don't think anyone intends to insult. And it is hard to write critically about something that someone else cares about without sometimes sounding a little coarse. back to the subject: So do you think I could bring my MIT speaker cables and my Radio Shack Db meter to my local Audio King and run some tests?

I don't own one for my stereo system, but I do own a battery backup/UPS for my computers. The theory here is that since I am always loosing monitors and power supplies on my computers, I attribute it to the crappy unclean power that my electric company supplies to me. Supposedly a good UPS will also filter the power and regulate it before delivering it to your computer. Since purchasing a UPS for my computer, I have not lost a power supply or monitor that was plugged into the UPS. I know that Monster Cable make power supplies that range from $39.95 to the $500 models. I don't know what specifically makes them different. I also don't know why it wouldn't be just as good to run to Best Buy an pick-up a $50 UPS intended for computer use, and use it instead for your Stereo equipment. Hopefully someone can guide us if there is any folly in that. Do you need one? Depends upon how clean the power from your electric company to your outlet is. Can someone speak directly to the differences between computer UPS, the different levels of audio line conditioners, and why it is important to have a square sign wave feeding into your power supply? This message has been edited by cc1091 on 04-14-2002 at 12:41 AM

Dean- I didn't mean to step on a good Klipsch owner's ears, but plainly my ears hear a sound that is different from what yours hear. I'm somewhat relieved that Sound & Vision has published tests that back-up SOME of my contentions about the RF series (I was wondering if my ears had finally lost something to the march of years). On the other hand, I must admit that it seems that S&V tests seem to indicate that a speaker tests much worse that it reasonably should be. To me, the Rf series always sounded like the bass was less controlled and filled with more distortions (cabinet and sympathetic distortions between the dual woofer format). Plus, the RF still needs a sub just to get to the bass depth that the Rps had built in. I can't complain much about the upper end, because the Rp-3 and 5 had nearly the same driver there. Yes you're right. It was my point that sales of the RF-3 were complimentry to the fact that the Rp series was so expensive. The line of thought goes like this: The sales person introduces a customer to the Klipsch Rp-3 or Rp-5 first, when they find the customer wasn't loking to spend THAT much, he steps them down to the RF-3. If the RF-3 doesn't have enough bass, then comes the even less expensive RB5 with a sub. Hence, good sales numbers on a middle of the road speaker (although a middle of the road speaker that makes other "high end" speaker manufacturers envious). It is also my contention that Klipsch wrongly interpreted the sales numbers for the RF-3 to mean that they should drop the entire RP series and build two new speakers that are exactly the same as the RF3, except for the fact that they are bigger in nearly every way. First I was disheartened that Klipsch wanted to create such a redundancy with the RF3, RF5 and RF7 just as they did with the Rp3 and Rp5. Second, I think they would have done themselves a favor by keeping the RF3, introducing the RF7 (which is much larger sounding than the RF3), and reformulating the two RP speakers into a new package that kept a three way speaker (or something close to a three way speaker like the Rp series) in the reference line. I would love to see a model that takes the very nice sounding subwoofer and cabinet combination of the Rp-3 and incorporates the squawker and tweeter of the Heresy plus a smaller cone driver to fill in the frequencies between where the squawker leaves off, and the sub begins (a four-way speaker). but I'm afraid this will remain a dream. Back to the subject: I must also point out that I am used to listening to my Rp3s and my Heresys through MIT speaker cables. The RF series speakers I have listened to have been through the cheap store system speaker cables that lead to a multiple distribution box (so they can match their zillion components to your selected speaker). I think some of my opinions could change if listening to the RF series through a pair of MIT speaker cables proved a much better sound than I imagine. I will read with interest any finding from a Klipsch owner that either verifies or discounts Sound & Vision's tests (as I think many of the audio magazines don't give Klipsch a fair shake). CC PS I hope this sounded a little more intelligent. This message has been edited by cc1091 on 04-14-2002 at 12:28 AM

Thanks Boa and Trooper. I think you have sufficiently hashed this subject out for me. Not sure how much of the info I actually understood, but further analysis will help me catch up to that curve. I still wonder this: Why does my old 1988 vintage Denon (DCD 1500-II) cd player with 24 bit oversampling sound better than my Phillips CDR765? In fact, why does this older CD player sound better than almost any of the CD players that I have been able to get into my home for a listening?

How many decibels does it take to make your ears bleed? I don't think 3Db is going to make a lot of difference at 120+ dbs. At least when you do obsess, it is about Klipsch speakers.

I can't keep biting my tongue about this: When the reference series consisted of the RP-5, Rp-3 and RF-3 as the main speakers in the line, I commented about how poor the RF-3 sounded in comparison to the Rp-5 and Rp-3. I was sorely chastised by the Klipsch BB community because the RF-3 was outselling the other two (well at half the price of the RP-3, I can see why...show them the Rp series, then switch the customer over to the RF-3 and tell them this model is about half the price = sale). Fast forward: Klipsch discontinues the Rp series and introduces the RF-5 and RF-7 which look for all the world like RF-3s but larger. Hmmm even their specs are not a lot different. My subjective listening test tells me that they don't sound any better than the RF-3, just a little larger and the bad points of the RF-3 are more emphasized. I ask, "Why did Klipsch discontinue the RP series?" Again I am chastised. Now we have these tests by Sound and Vision. Though I have never been a fan of these testing methods (mostly because they are hard to decipher, not because they are not realistic), I find that they have accurately depicted my feelings about the RF-7 (and in some lesser way, the whole RF line). In no way is the RF line a very good representation of the typical Klipsch speaker, nor is it a good "reference" quality speaker. OK all...start the retorts. I can handle it. Especially when I am right.

Odd how the Klipsch Heritage specs seem to fluctuate over the years. My 1981 Heresys were always advertized in and around 1981 as having 10" woofers. Now, the link on this website for the Heresy I says that the Heresy has a 12" woofer (hmmm...just like the Heresy II). I suspect there is very little audible difference between these newer models and the older stuff. It is good to see the assurance that Klipsch is dedicated to these models. But I would still like to see a "Son of Heresy" model that extends bass to the sub 30 hz range and resembles a tower speaker.

Another thread I was reading brought to mind a question that has not been clearly answered for me. Back in 1988 or so, I bought a Denon CD player with "24Bit Oversampling". This was during the time when CD players were progressing from 4bit to 8 bit to ..24 bit oversampling. Then suddenly, the jargon changed. Suddenly 24 bit oversampling was "inferior" (or so I was told) to single bit players using things like MASH filters. For the longest time, no one seemed concerned about how many bits of resolution a CD player had. Now suddenly formats like 24/96 and the like are all the rage. Listening to my old Denon cd player, then placing the same disk in my dual tray Phillips CD recorder/player. I can hear a big difference. While the Phillips shows off every pitch very cleanly, the Denon is much more musical and (vinyl) record like. Of the two I prefer the Denon. My question is this: What is the difference between the 24 bit oversampling that my old Denon uses and the latest formats? Is there any (especially after I route the digital output to my receiver's internal digital decoders)? This message has been edited by cc1091 on 04-11-2002 at 12:11 AM

When I was a high school junior I could hear up to about 24khz (assuming the test equipment we had was calibrated correctly). I'm sure I can no longer hear 20Khz, but I can hear the difference between how my different speakers handle very high frequencies. (The Heresy can't touch the super high notes, but is fuller sounding through most music's higher frequencies. The RP3 tweeterhorn can reproduce extremely high frequencies, but is definitely running out of steam at that range. The B&W 602 tweeter is silky smooth throughout all the frequencies that I can hear) The theory I heard was similar to what Soundog heard. I only want to add that some theories potend that people can subconciously "hear" even higher frequencies. Anyone done any research on Psychoacoustics?

Best guess I can give you is this: Call Jerry Raskin's Needle Doctor in Minneapolis. They specialize in the turntable and have been around since 1979. Number is 1-800-229-0644. On line at www.needledoctor.com. Good people with honest answers.

Here it is boys, the new addition to the Heritage line, the "Son of Heresy" http://216.37.9.58/ubb/uploads/cc1091/SOH1.jpg JK

17Khz to 50 hz was the limit for the Heresy I of 1981, though I often felt the 50hz was very generous. The Heresy certainly sounds better when you limit its response to about 90 hz and let a sub do the rest. I have it on the very QT (though I could be wrong) that Klipsch will indeed introduce a new Heritage line speaker. It will be called "Son of Heresy". It will look something like this http://216.37.9.58/ubb/uploads/cc1091/SOH1.jpg

I connected my Heresy 1 speakers to a friend's Cary amp (not sure which model, Chrome chassis, 30 wpc stereo, volume knob). I didn't like the sound. Too much sound was coming from the Midrange squawker. Not enough balance overall. He bought his cary from Ebay though, so it may not have been up to spec.