Jolly Roger

lynnm, I was up a little late sorry, didnt mean to rant like that. You asked "Are you suggesting that those who prefer tube amps are biased and by extension those who prefer SS are unbiased" What I meant was that people on the Klipsch bb in general, and more so the two channel forum, are biased toward tube gear. Why is this? Because more people own and recomend tube gear here than just about anywhere else. Didn't mean to sound like I'm pro one side or the other. I have tube gear and ss. JR

I think it depends on what you plan on doing with this amp personally. You asked about a three channel amp so I assume you plan on using it in conjunction with the rear amp channels in your denon.(for ht) If this is the case, you would have been better asking this in the home theater forum. People in here are a little too pro-tube. Sure you don't need alot of "watts" to power the rf-3's. Power in watts is not really a true example of how well a amp handles a load either. To say you only need x number amount of watts is kinda stupid imo. Its about design and sound. For example, my B&K 7250 is rated at 200 watts x 5 vs the amps in my Denon avr-3300 105 x 5 which was a respectable $1000 dollar reciever when I bought it. I think there is a huge difference. I do still use the denon pre also I might add. The amps in the denon sound way more bright. The B&k is much warmer with much better seperation. Do I use any more "watts" in one amp than the other? NO. The B&K is just a better design. Talk about transformer? This thing is huge. Break your freakin back to try and lift. I personally wouldn't try and mate three 20-30 watt tube amps with the ss amps in the 2802 but thats just me. Also, I'm from the camp thats its far easier to damage speakers with an under-powered amp than over. As stated, more than 16-32 watts into these speakers would be probably too much even though they are rated at 150 watts. So as far as clean power, these speakers can take it. Over-drive a low powered amp will blow speakers in no time. You know how when you turn your 2802 up really loud and it starts to sound not so good? Thats the amps dying not the speakers. (or amps killing the speakers either way) The thing is, tube amps don't have this problem or at least as bad. Something to do with even/odd order harmonics being produced. So 20 watts means pretty much 20 watts in tube power and this is why we never see 20 watt solid state amps. Anyway, there are alot of options. I would look more toward more quality products, than more or less powerful ones. This board is full of people that are into low powered tube amps and very efficient speakers. Especially the two channel forum. Keep in mind your getting that type of biased response when you ask questions here. JR

Check out the Cary Audio cd-303/200. Its 3k retail but you could probably find a used one for around 2.

The amp was screwed also, bad day....

I have a pair of Rf-3's that I have had for about 2-3 years. I have took the dust covers off maybe three four times at most. I went to move them the other day to hook up to a new amp I got.(HH Scott 299b) Well, I notice that the cones have a good bit of dust on them. So, I get a dry paper towel to lightly wipe them off. I look at one of the cones and see a dent. I'm not 100 percent positive, but I think the paper towel dented the cone where the paper towel had made a small point when I folded it up. Is that possible? Where the dent was the dust was cleared off. Its a pretty small dent but enough to really tick me off. Its not on the dust cap, its right on the cone. I tried to take it out with a piece of tape, but it didnt help. I'm sure it probably doesn't effect the sound, but I'm really pissed about it, considering how much care I give my stuff. I mean the speakers don't have a scratch on them but yet a dent in the cone. What can I do? Replace the cone? Sigh. Leave it? Sigh. Sell the whole set? Sigh....I can't believe the cone would be that soft. I just cant believe it. Its the only thing I can come up with though. Not that it really matters I guess. If its screwed its screwed....

Really what sounds better is pretty subjective anyway, since tastes differ. Just because one person says its the best thing since sliced bread doesn't even mean the next guy is even going to like sliced bread...

Just wanted to say thanks to Craig aka NOS440 for all his help. I've been trying to find a decent HH Scott without getting ripped off. Since I'm a tube newbee, Craig has helped me out alot. This is what the net is all about. Meeting people like this that take the time out of their day to help someone out. So anyway thumbs up to Craig, one cool dude. Wish I could return the favor... Peace, JR

Is it pretty easy to work on these units or do people send them off somewhere after they buy them on ebay? Sorry, I dont know jack about tubes, but theses units do seem like an inexpensive way to get started if they dont require a bunch of work.

10 watts of tube power aint like 10 watts of ss. You can push a tube amp to near max output, where as if your pushing a ss amp much more than half way your probably going to start hearing some clipping. With corns I'm sure this would probably be a fine amp although I really have no idea. Ref series is a step up.

Well, I'm not the person to answer this but I've seen this question a time or two here lately. Here are a couple of posts I found that may help explain. http://www.tpub.com/neets/book7/25e.htm http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=general&n=28304&highlight=what+does+class+a+mean&r=&session=

Thanks for bumping the price up, hehe...

Just curious, where do you hook up on your Cary stuff at. I live in Charlotte and I see the only dealer is in Ashville. cpace@carolina.rr.com

Balanced Audio make quality gear?

I use to have a mild problem with crackle. I also have a Denon. I may be wrong but it seems like when I set my speakers to large it cut most of it out. I still hear source crackle and that may have been what I was hearing all along but it does seem like by-passing the internal cross-over of the denon helped. I still have my center set to small and I hear more crackle out of it than my other speakers, but its not often and usually during movies. I would find a spot in a dvd or game that I know has bad crackle and experiment. Good luck...

My amp blew a fuse and I cant seem to find a slow blow fuse for it. A fast acting one will work right? and how do they differ? Thanks JR

Well for starters, you seem to be on a budget and say you want "the most out the system as a basic 2 channel system." The Denon has pretty good amps so that would be the last thing to add. You don't want to side step, if you upgrade the amps in the Denon, get something thats a good step up. If I wanted to get the most out of my system, here is the route I'd go. First I'd get a quality dvd player and use a digital optical or coaxal cable to connect it to the Denon. This will use the internal DACs of the Denon and use the dvd player as a transport when playing cds. That way you don't have to spend money on an extra cd player right now, and if you hooked up a cd player with a digital cable it probably wouldn't sound much different anyway. Your money would be better spent on a good dvd player for now if you plan on using this system as a home theater setup later.(I assume thats what you meant by surround system) If you only plan on using this system as just an audio system, than a good cd player would be fine now. Just remember that if you hook it up with a digital cable of some sort, your bypassing what a real quality player has to offer. If I where to do just audio, I'd look into a quality sacd or dvd audio player. What speakers you buy next are up to you, obviously a sub would increase the bass in a two channel setup. I personally would go with surrounds first then center then sub. The reason I'd go this order are this. The Rf3s have some decent bass. In the denon setup menu you have an option to set your speakers to small, large, and off. I may be wrong but I think if you have the center turned off it will direct the information to the main speakers. This won't work for the surrounds of course. (correct me if I'm wrong guys and gals.) You could set the bass management to send the lfe to the mains also in the lfe setting menu. Basically the surrounds are the only thing you can't mimick with the mains in surround system. Then of course after your basic speaker system comes together, good interconnects, cables, and wires are a good thing. Followed by cd player, amps, preamps, ect. I still don't have or should say use a cd player in my H/T system. I do have a quality amp though and use my reciever as a preamp. A preamp and better dvd player are next in my system. I do have a quality cd player for the system I just dont have room for it. Its a multichanger sacd, two features that arn't present in the system right now. So its not just a cd payer. As of right now there isnt alot you can do that I can think of. Adjust your delay and make sure the mains are set to large since you dont have a sub. Also screw around with the placement of the speakers it can make a big difference. Do your best to aim the tweeter at the listening posistion. I think the Rf3s call for like six inchs from the wall though you could go a shade closer to add a touch more bass dont go too much. If your have carpet and can, use the spikes provided with the speakers. Another little tweak is to bi-wire or even just replace the jumper on the speakers with a wire. These tweaks have minimal gains. If you want to do something like this please research it and/or ask if you need help. They arn't hard but its easy to screw up if you dont know what your doing. I wouldn't have thought so until I saw a friend(I guess) have his screwed up twice. All because he didnt take time to research what he was doing. Hope some of this helps. One thing I might add is that a quality sub is the heart of a good home theater to me. So choose wisely. I also saw you said you used pins to connect the speakers. How long are the pins? I know that Monster Cable speakers wire that is pre-terminated alot of times have these little pins on the end and actually have a treading around the edge that is made to have a spade or banana screwed onto the end. This isnt what you have is it? Don't feel bad if so, I had to look at a time or two before I saw what was going on and the fact the screw on stuff was for sell close by.(I don't use MC btw) If you do have your heart set on a cd player you can find some good deals on some great discontinued Sony sacd players. G.L. JR

Well, I own a pair of M&L Odysseys for a two channel setup that I'm happy with. I do agree with the fact that they do need plenty of clean power to do their magic. That said, I believe that there is no perfect speaker. Each one has its own advantages and disadvantages. The main disadvantage with M&L's is not only the cost of the speakers but the cost of the upstream components you have to put into them. Throw that out of the window and good M&Ls are a force to reacon with. I get way more oohs and ahhs about just the looks of the Odysseys than any speaker I've owned. But it really boils down to the type music you listen to and what the room they are going into is like. Stringed instruments, vocals, acustic guitar based music are the strong points of my M&Ls. I always use to say that you can't beat the sound of a horn through a horn loaded speaker. This was before I got my electrostats, now I'm not so sure. The membrane of the electrostat vibrates very fast, and when you listen to music or sounds that allow you to really excite this membrane you will be very impressed. Heavy metal and really hard rock may be suited for other speakers all though the M&L's do, do a fine job with those as well. My Klipsch are my work horses and I'm very fortunate to have the option to listen to either system. Both have a way of bringing a smile to my face but for different reasons. J.R.

TK8EZ, what color did you get? I don't care for the cherry much but the other two are pretty nice looking imo. Sure they could have made them look better but that would cost more. So either the cost of the speakers goes up or the quality of components goes down. I think the they are a good balance of the two for the money.

quote: Originally posted by KyleY: 2. Also, as I turn up the volume I notice faint pops and clicks (this is with no source playing) as the volume is being adjusted. --Kyle I thought I had this problem too when I first got my avr-3300. If you watch the digital read-out of the volume I think you'll notice the pops aret the same intervils as the volume change. For instance going from say -10 to -9 there would be a light click. Change volumes very fast and you get several of these pops together and they are more noticable.

This comes from the Audioquest website, take it or leave it... "Terminations for speaker cable are more complicated, only because there is so much misunderstanding of the very simple priorities. The best connection is what is called a "gas-tight" or "cold weld" connection, formed when the wire and the piece it is connected to have been pushed together with enough force to cause a change in the shape of the materials at the surface where they meet. When a spade lug is crimped around a group of copper strands, the strands develop flat spots where they touch each other and where they touch the inside of the lug. These flat spots are gas-tight connections. Because they are gas tight they will not oxidize or degrade. If this connection is soldered after crimping, the solder cannot flow into the area where the metal is pressed together. The gas-tight connection will continue to be the primary electrical pathway. If the connection had been soldered before crimping, the solder would be an additional material impeding the electrical pathway and contributing to distortion."

I use my reciever as a pre-amp(for now) with a 7250 and I could tell a big difference. Don't forget you'll need interconnects also. Depending on which ones you use, they can get pretty expensive too. Two grand even for a 7250 is a pretty good price, but yes they arn't cheap. Good luck and tell us how you do....

The knob would have to be loose only one way then. If the knob sat at 11 o'clock, and it were to fall, it only seems logical that it would fall the other way. In other words it has to go UP past 12 o'clock before it could start to fall. Follow me? So it would have to be loose only in the clockwise posistion, otherwise it would have fell counterclockwise towards the six o'clock posistion. I could be wrong though, just a guess. Does it feel tighter going one way than the other when you move it with your finger? Sure you or someone else didnt just move it? This message has been edited by Jolly Roger on 04-11-2002 at 11:54 AM

All can say is wow! Just got it working and this thing sounds so smooth straight out of the box. The Denon sounded good but was way too bright, all though I didnt know it at the time. Cant wait till this baby breaks in some. Even my girlfreind said she could hear an imediate improvement. Thats a pretty big statement to me. She has never said anything about any other upgrade I made other than "you know I can't tell a difference". Wow I'm excited again!!!

I dont mean to jump on the end here but what the hay. I haven't decided on if cables make a difference. I have never a/b'd any. It's very possible that even though these cables may have been different that they produce similar results. Its possible that if the cheap cables where broke in better they could have even sounded better. All the vairables are not consistant. More cables of different build quality would need to be tested to say for sure as a whole. But its a fun topic. I did do a a/b on fiber optic and coax once. My buddy had a optical and coax and used the f/o in his system. We where at his house and he did the switching. I never even saw the two. I could tell a difference though not hugh. The one I picked he said was the optical. What did this tell me? A cheap fiber optical cable may sound better than a cheap coax. I went and bought a better coax the next day.