Fastlayne

He's not making a case for blind testing, he wants to pick a piano for a concert hall. "I love that other issue about measurement vs listening—when people promote the blind panel test, which of course I have no faith in, or even interest in, other than to laugh at. If you were choosing a piano for a concert hall, would you get two or three name pianists that you knew and respected, or would you put it up to a blind committee to help you pick a concert-hall instrument?" He is saying he would not use blind testing for such a purpose because he has no faith in it. I don't think those who believe in blind testing think they are intended to "test the listener", but it is unavoidable. After all, they don't call them double blind auditions, do they? I think an ABX test that has a good chance of success would be to blindfold people and let them smell two different violins, one old and one new. That's one reason why I think having those violin players blindfolded was silly.

That interview was 15 years ago and his comments were his opinions about the state of audio recording and playback then. Not sure I understand your take on the Colgate commercial part of his interview. "I wrote in this little book of mine [The Vacuum Tube Logic Book] that when I was heavily in the recording industry, English recording company executives and A&R men would have Leak amplifiers driving Tannoy speakers in their offices or their reference playback system, and in America they had McIntosh driving JBL or Altec Lansing speakers. That's all changed. Now they have boom boxes and little Auratones—a car radio is now the standard. If you make a pop record and it sounds softer on a car radio than the Colgate commercial preceding it, you're finished as a mastering engineer. That's your last job. They're going to want to know why their stuff sounded sub-loud, sub-clear, sub-punchy to the Colgate toothpaste commercial. The quality criteria have shifted to where "good enough" is the order of the day. That's sad." I think he was referring to the pop record as "good enough", not the commercials. "Good enough" in the sense it just has to sound good on a car radio, not the HiFi that used to be the standard with the promise of bringing the live experience into the home. 15 years ago we didn't have a lot of what there are now for audio format choices. Very few CDs in my collection that are over ten years old sound very good compared to newer ones, whether they are new recordings or remasters. Seems like if a lot of the recording companies could just get us to accept "good enough" and sell it to us for top dollar, they would. Fortunately people can hear the difference between mp3 and other formats, even in the car. I'd like to know what he has to say about the industry today.

"Forever Strong" is a new release on DVD. Based on a true story, PG-13. Good story and cast.

I read some more about the wood used by Stradivari and other violin makers of the era. It came from what is now Croatia. For about 100 years in that region the climate was much colder and it caused the trees to grow slower and denser. Also, the logs were floated to Italy by sea and the Italian navy had first selection for shipbuilding. By the time the artisans were able to choose their wood, the logs would have been floating in the salty seawater for a long time. They think Stradivari applied a pre-varnish with an insecticide that crystalized on the wood's surface and the final varnish finish got microscopic cracks in it over time allowing the wood to vibrate more freely to resonate the sound. By comparison, the French violin makers used shellac which was beautiful but more rigid and those violins produced a duller sound. Catgut strings were the standard in the past.

If the bias is there is no sonic difference between A and B, not allowing choice 3 will favor the bias in the final results. There should be a third choice and those answers should be considered separately. The number of 3 answers could say more about the participants ability to discern differences in sound than actual sonic differences (or lack of) with A or B. Ten people participate in an audio ABX DBT. A = X C = sound the same 4 select A 1 selects B 5 select C The most reliable results would be to discard those who answered C. If those five participants were forced to only select A or B, the results would end up between A 90% or B 60%, unreliable.

Thanks for the correction. I should taken into consideration your need to be concise, since you had stated you were replying from a cell phone, and not have reacted to that post at all. I also don't care much for snobbery and find most of the people who enjoy the audio hobby are very down to earth. They are also having a great time experimenting with different audio equipment and tweaks. But, the case where the guy led the listener to believe he had other cables could be seen as the listener being polite with the heaps of praise. I wasn't there, but I'm sure he wasn't happy about being duped either.

Thanks for posting the link and I did enjoy watching the video. A couple of questions came up as I was watching. Does a Stradivarius sound the same today as it did when it was new 300 years ago? I wonder how the tone of a wooden instrument would not change over that much time, regardless of the superiority of the design. Also, I think when they are asking the judges their opinions it should not be in a group. Maybe they should not even be seated together or be able to see each other during the performances. Why blindfold the violinists? Do you think they did not know what violins they were playing anyway? That seemed a bit gimmicky

....As per your second point, if you can't identify a difference without knowing what you're listening to, then how can sonic performance be the ONLY criteria for the choice? How does knowing what you're listening to make it sound different? So you are saying I, and others, misunderstood your post about stating reasons for buying equipment? I already said I have pretty much ignored DBTs over the years and now I reject them as unreliable for audio. I base all audio purchases on the hopes of improved sonic performance, but often that's not the only reason. I recently bought an integrated amp that had to have certain features, including a cinema bypass to use with my HT receiver. Unless I could expect improved sonic performance, I'd have continued to use the main speakers connected to the receiver.

Ummmm, who said you have to state reasons for buying gear? Ummmm, you did?

If the bias is there is no sonic difference between A and B, not allowing choice 3 will favor the bias in the final results. There should be a third choice and those answers should be considered separately. The number of 3 answers could say more about the participants ability to discern differences in sound than actual sonic differences (or lack of) with A or B.

Except the blind part removes the possibility for bias unrelated to the sound. For what it's worth, there is absolutely nothing wrong with buying something for reasons other than the perceived sonic performance, but those reasons should be stated as such... That sounds a bit elitist to me. To whom am I supposed to state my reasons for buying gear? Correct me if I'm wrong, but does that mean unless I can pick out a piece of equipment in a DBT, I cannot make the claim I chose it for perceived sonic performance?

I heard of the DBT years ago and never really paid that much attention to it. Some forums won't allow discussions about the results of them, at least, but this thread has been helpful for me to understand why the ABX comparison is fundamentally unreliable.

I read most of that thread and thought you did well. It seemed like some of the posters on that thread just wanted to get you to jump through some hoops for their own entertainment and they had no real interest in Klipsch speakers or improvements to the XOs. It means more to me to have an honest testimonial from someone who can give a before and after evaluation of an upgrade. Converting a room full of skeptics during a ten minute listening session says a lot more than a stack of charts to me.

I'd say being a Bose disciple is the least of his problems. Just forget about him and enjoy your music. Get some noise cancelling headphones if he ever comes over again, block out that nonsense.

Thanks for the link. Did you hear about the remasters of the Beatles albums coming in September '09 and Beatles Rock Band (along with their style guitars)?

If it's the same website I saw, it's $1099 each, not per pair. Regular price on the RF-83 is $1399 each. The dealer I got mine from tells me they get to him by freight on pallets. If you have them shipped by UPS or FedEx Ground, they will be handled individually increasing the risk of tipping over or dropping. He made me a better deal than that on new speakers, so I still say find a dealer and pick them up. If he can include "free" shipping, there's enough wiggle room in his price to get them under $2k/pair if you are picking them up.

Congratulations on your son's graduation! Reports I have read on DeanG's crossover network upgrades for Klipsch speakers have been favorable. That "B" stock deal does sound incredible, almost too good to be true (and you know what they say about that). If it's not from an authorized dealer, I'd steer clear. If you decide on the RF-83 or other new Klipsch speakers, my advice would be shop at the nearby dealers and cut the best deal you can, pick them up and deliver them. That "D" stock thing sounds like it's wide open to problems from DOA, damaged, defective, disappointment...graduation is almost here and you don't want to be dealing with returns and insurance claims instead of happy times. The TV and PS3 are good ideas too! The logistics of delivering a 50" flat screen and game console are much simpler than lugging 100 lb speakers around.

I have the RT-10d and I like it in my HT system. It is different from any sub I have owned in the past, but those were mainly set up in a 2.1 system, namely the Sunfire True Sub Signature and REL Stadium. I'm not able to place the sub in a corner on the front wall near the main speakers, as I had learned to do in the past with the other subs, but the room correction helps it disappear anyway. It must be pretty close to right because the demos are good from the listening position, the #2 demo is a sweep from high to low with minimal nulls and the #1 demo for music is fast with deep bass. It absolutely shakes the house making for an intense special effects movie experience, but with the music preset it blends well with the main speakers. Any sub without the room correction might require me to run a long coax around the room to get it in a corner on the back wall and have it do the disappearing act I get with the RT-10d not in a corner. Even in a less than ideal position, the RT-10d does everything right for me.

We have been Costco members for years on the executive membership since we own a small business. We would shop there more but it's over 100 miles to the nearest one. That is where I usually buy my PCs. They stand behind everything they sell and have good customer service. The tire department has good deals and also the pharmacy and optical. Most everything with their label, Kirkland, is good quality. For example, the Kirkland dogfood is supposed to be on par with Science Diet, according to our vet (who sells SD), for a lot less. Anything you purchase from Costco.com can be returned to a store for a refund. Even though we are not able to shop there every week or even every month, we usually get a bigger rebate check at the end of the year than the $100 membership fee. I think you can get a guest pass for a day to go check out a Costco, but you have to have the membership to make a purchase.

Yes, bypass the soundcard, the FW carries both signal & power (except for a few older FW ports and hi-current requiring convertors). I'll plug my AKG-701s in Saturday & let you know. Shouldn't be a problem tho'. After I asked, I read more about the Behringer. They didn't have any Vista support for awhile, but now have 32 bit drivers...too bad I need 64 bit. The good news is there are some great deals to be had on the FCA202. Got any other suggestions that are compatible with Vista 64 bit?

I was looking at the Peachtree Nova as an integrated with HT pass thru mainly. The Behringer looks like a great solution for music from the PC. I have a 1394 connection on the front and back of the PC tower. If I understand it correctly, you bypass the soundcard and the firewire cable provides the signal and power for the FCA202. Is the signal from the firewire on the PC a variable or line level output? Will the headphone section of the FCA202 handle higher impedance headphones like the Sennheiser HD600 (300 ohm) to play loud when wanted?

Check out the features on the Peachtree Nova. The DAC alone is supposed to be worth the price of admission and it does a whole lot more. http://signalpathint.com/ Here's a video I found helpful to explain all the features: http://www.listenup.com/Peachtree+Audio+Nova+%28Black%29-p-NOVA-p-.html

The Sanus Euro amp stand is also the base for their 2 to 8 shelf equipment stands. I had a huge amp and needed the depth this one has (not all of them do). Search Amazon , saw it for $69 delivered in black. You could make a shelf from wood to replace the black shelf that comes with it if you wanted.

I do have an opinion about cables, but I still understand your statement. The vitriol is out of place here. The best two channel system I have ever heard was at the home of the Zen master. A few years ago I emailed a cable company for suggestions of speaker cables to go with my new Maggies. The owner of the company replied expressing his surprise there was another Magnepan owner in the region and invited me to come to his house to listen to his system. Luckily, I was able to visit him a short time later. Stepping down into the listening room, it became obvious this was not your average room. In fact, it was also a recording studio. The effect of the acoustic treatment on the walls and the double thick padded carpet was apparent immediately. Since I had read about his speaker setup recommendations, the single chair, sitting low to the ground, facing the two panel speakers was somewhat familiar. That is about the only thing I could call familiar. You'd think I'd recognize the speakers at least, since we had the same ones. His speakers may have been the MG3.6R at some point, but the only similarity, other than the general overall size and shape, were the ribbon tweeters. The panels were mounted in an exotic wood frame that added stiffness and a solid foundation. The panels themselves had been completely rewired. Not just the connecting wires, the entire mylar panels had the new wire glued to them for both the bass and midrange sections. He had made custom crossovers and mounted them in clear Lucite boxes sitting behind the speakers. Connected to the crossovers were mono tube amps with Wavestream prominently visible and V8 was a fitting title from the appearance. At the back of the room was his incredible turntable mounted on a thick, granite platform, a top loading digital transport that looked like it landed there under it's own power, and Jeff Rowland preamp with the DC power supply. The turntable looked similar to this: The sound? I already said it was the best system I have heard, but that doesn't mean a lot if you don't know what I have heard for a comparison. I could say it is the best you have heard, but that might come across as pretentious even if it is true (and it proabably is). All I can add is it left me with a new awareness of what is possible for musical reproduction. As I was leaving, he handed me two pairs of his cables as a gift. It was enough of a gift just to be able to hear his HiFi system and I would have been glad to pay for the cables...although afterward I realized what he had given me and would have had to ask for something further down the line or just a single run if I had to pay. Wow, wouldn't that have been awkward.[] So do I even think his system would have sounded just as good with zipcord in place of his cables? No, I don't think it and I certainly wouldn't say so if I did. Here is a gentleman who has dedicated himself to music and sound in all the aspects from recording to playback. He is obviously generous and unassuming. He meticulously set up the system with no stone left unturned. Should I ask for proof his cables made a difference? Talk about the height of arrogance...that would be right up there. The proof of the pudding is in the tasting and I had just enjoyed an ample portion. It was delicious! I think we need to remember when other forum members are sharing their experiences in audio, it's akin to opening their listening rooms to us. We should try to be gracious guests.

Thanks, I found what I needed to know.