Mighty Favog

ooops..edit goof. This message has been edited by tblasing on 05-09-2001 at 01:15 PM

Ray, Sorry for not being too clear on this. I just got the amp over the weekend and pre came about a week ago. The measurements were taken with the microphone sitting on the back of my "listening" chair and the speakers were moved to different distances from each wall. Each time the speaker was moved one inch I took an SPL reading from that same microphone position. As far as using the Receiver as the preamp, this may very well have merit. The receiver has a problem as it plays music slightly softer out of the left channel. When I got the C-1 I used the Receiver as an amp only and the problem was still there concluding the problem is in the amp section. I've post this problem before on the BB and others thought it was just the volume or balance control not tracking equally on both channels. I'll try your suggestion in a day or two. I htink what drew me to the C-1 was the s/n ratio @ 96db where the Receiver is listed at 80db but yet THD is .03% max on the Rotel and .05% on the Receiver. Go figure. The main reason I got a C-1 was I needed two tape loops, 2 aux., tuner, phono, AND an external processor loop. The Sonic-Holography doesn't do much for me, it does add a nasty hiss when it's engaged. And there doesn't seem to be alot of usable volume knob travel before it gets worrysome-loud, 10 o'clock is all it goes to. After blowing my share of tweeters that is. Maybe the C-1 is going to wind up being temporary till I can find a better pre with all the inputs/outputs needed. And when I can financially recover from buying the amp. Thanks for the help!! ------------------ Tom KLF-20 Mahogany Carver C-1 Rotel RB1080 Yamaha PF-800 Turntable/ Sure V15 Type V Cartridge Carver TL-3100 CD Yamaha K-1020 Cassette dbx 1231 EQ H.H. Scott 830z Analyzer Monster Interlink 300 mk II Original 12ga. Monster Cable This message has been edited by tblasing on 05-09-2001 at 01:25 PM

I recently upgraded from using a Carver Receiver MXR-150 to a Craver C-1 Preamp and a Rotel RB-1080 amp. Since then the mids and highs have been, well....a lot more noticable (hell, they're downright bright!) than ever. However the bass seams to have dropped off a bit. Cound this be from the receiver (maybe, I dunno) having a low amperage output and the Rotel being a high output? To find the perfect speaker placement while using the receiver I drew up an Excel speadsheet and took SPL readings from 2" side wall and 2" rear wall all the way out to 14" side and 14" rear using 1" increments (ie: 2"X2", 2"X3", 2"X4" etc.). After all that the data was put in to a 3-D graph and the correct position came clear. Granted, this all took over 4 hours to do and to get the little woman out of her own house for that long is a feet by itself. So does new equipment have this type of characteristics? ------------------ Tom KLF-20 Mahogany Carver C-1 Rotel RB1080 Yamaha PF-800 Turntable/ Sure V15 Type V Cartridge Carver TL-3100 CD Yamaha K-1020 Cassette dbx 1231 EQ H.H. Scott 830z Analyzer Monster Interlink 300 mk II Original 12ga. Monster Cable

Ooops! Edit problem.. This message has been edited by tblasing on 05-08-2001 at 09:46 PM

From my ears to the TV? About eight feet (27" Samsung; please no flames, it was here when I moved into my girlfriend's house and my 13 year old NEC 2750 27" doesn't have the bandwidth). Tomorrow I'm getting a Rotel RB-1080 amp for my KLF-20's. I recently found a pretty clean Carver C-1 pre-amp on eBay for $150, but running that into the line in to a current Carver Receiver really sounds like garbage. A few months after that will be a new cabinet from Studo Tech, the U48 in Rosewood. Kinda cool, each shelf has it's own isolation spikes and looks like my Grandmother's all original Ediphone (any ideas where I can get a spring for this thing?). Sure hope the 20 year-old $150 Gusdorf holds up till then (man is that thing garbage!!). UPDATE: Couldn't wait on the cabinet so that is now in the livingroom. The Carver C-1 just isn't doing it for me. Think I'll heed Al K.'s advice and get a McIntosh pre-amp. C-30, C-35, C-40!! WOW! ------------------ Tom KLF-20 Mahogany Carver C-1 Rotel RB-1080 Yamaha PF-800 Turntable/ Sure V15 Type V Cartridge Carver TL-3100 CD Yamaha K-1020 Cassette dbx 1231 EQ H.H. Scott 830z Analyzer Monster Interlink 300 mk II Original 12ga. Monster Cable Studio Tech U-48 RW This message has been edited by tblasing on 05-26-2001 at 12:08 PM

Pending on ho wyou wired them, parallel or series, your now putting a 16 ohm load on the B channel. ------------------ Tom KLF-20 Mahogany Carver C-1 Carver Receiver MXR-150 Yamaha PF-800 Turntable/ Sure V15 Type V Cartridge Carver TL-3100 CD Yamaha K-1020 Cassette dbx 1231 EQ H.H. Scott 830z Analyzer Monster Interlink 300 mk II Original 12ga. Monster Cable

Pending on how you wired it, paralell or series, your now putting a 16 ohm load on the B channel.

Hope you got it on a GFI circuit. ------------------ Tom KLF-20 Mahogany Carver C-1 Rotel RB-1080 Yamaha PF-800 Turntable/ Sure V15 Type V Cartridge Carver TL-3100 CD Yamaha K-1020 Cassette dbx 1231 EQ H.H. Scott 830z Analyzer Monster Interlink 300 mk II Original 12ga. Monster Cable

A repair-tech friend of mine used to call the old Phase Linear (old Carver) the line of Flame Linear. Guess it really has merit. Just bought a Carver C-1 pre-amp from eBay and has anyone here used one of these with a (I'm hopefully buying one) Rotel RB-1080 amp to use with a pair of KLF-20's? Right now I'm using the line in to a Carver Receiver so as to use the amp only and that sounds like crap!! Very little bass and excruciating mids and highs. Don't think that repositioning the speakers is going to help much (I found the ultimate place while using the Receiver only). It also gets loud very early in the volume knobs travel, I don't feel good taking it up past the 9:30 point. I'm hoping (naturally) the sound will be much more rounded with the a new amp. ------------------ Tom

rowooo, Does the drum you mention sort of resemble the same action as a bicycle's rear sprocket and chain? Meaning the chain moves to a different location on the sprocket. That new location being a gear that is either smaller or larger than the one it was on previously.

According to the parts page you need a #127103 diaphragm for a K97KV tweeter (yes, they call it a tweeter). These are pretty simple to put in, most times only a Phillips screwdriver, an open end wrench are needed and a gentle hand seating it on the magnet. They are listed here for $20 but I would bet on $22, I ordered one for my KLF-20's and they were a little bit more than what the parts list said. If it has to cross the Mississippi River for shipping then it should take about a week to get. Good luck! ------------------ Tom KLF-20 Mahogany Carver Receiver MXR-150 Yamaha PF-800 Turntable/ Sure V15 Type V Cartridge Carver TL-3100 CD Yamaha K-1020 Cassette dbx 1231 EQ H.H. Scott 830z Analyzer Monster Interlink 300 mk II Original 12ga. Monster Cable

I had another thought on this. If the speed is at a very consistant 45rpm on both 33 and 45 settings then it may be the switch itself or the voltage regulator portion of the drive motor.

I would try opening up the turntable and touching up all the solder joints. There may be a cold connection in there somewhere. If it's belt drive I would try a new belt. As belts age and loose their shape and strength they can strech and load up elasticity then like an earthquake suddenly release all that extra energy to the platter. I try to keep two unopened spares for my Yamaha PF-800. Good luck!

Just remember, it most likely won't be the power from the amp that'll blow drivers but the amounts of distortion (clipping) coming from the amp itself. Tom Colt IPSC converted Series '70 Sig-Sauer P228 - yes a thirteen round Browning Hi Power (Belgium) Dan Wesson Pistol Pak .357VH Ruger SP101 Ruger MK-678GC North American Arms NAA-22LR Ruger 10/22RB Remington 541-THB Remington 700ADL 22-250 Remington 11-87 Premier Heavy bbl. Crosman 760 - Varoius Commemoratives....... ....oooops! wrong list.

You may want to touch up the solder joints betwen the two connecting terminals and the voice coil wires.

Good save.

For an amplifier to increase sound output by 3db it must produce twice the power. Example: 100db@1 watt 103db@2 watts 106db@4 watts 109db@8 watts 112db@16 watts 115db@32 watts

O.k. Here's an official definition I found. 1. In re: acoustics- A numerical expression of the relative loudness of a sound: the difference in decibels (db) between two sounds is ten times the common logarithm of the ratio of their power levels. 2. In re: Electronics, Radio- a numerical expression of the relative differences in power levels of electrical signals equal to ten times the logarithm of the ratio of the two signal powers. Sometimes an absolute reference is used in the power ratio (10 to the neg. 16th power watt sq. cm in acoustics, one milliwatt in electronics and radio) So changing the db level of the center channel may very well change the sound quality as well. It probably won't be that much different although speakers usually have different tonal qualities at different volume levels. A good example of a "db" rating is the efficiancy of your speakers. You may see a number somewhere that says something like "100db/1-watt@1meter". This means that the speaker can produce 100db of sound (loudness) using 1 watt of power to that speaker and being measured from 1 meter away from the drivers of the speaker. So one could deduce and postulate that it really doesn't take a lot of power to drive speakers loudly. Since (to me) 4 watts through a 100db speaker is painfull to say the least. All the extra power that amps and receivers tout is rarely used. I say rarely because sometimes there are explosions or extended bass notes (those use the most power) that requirer more that the avereage power being used (this is called "RMS"). So the extra power that the amp or receiver can deliver is called "headroom". Good Luck! ------------------ Tom KLF-20 Mahogany Carver Receiver MXR-150 Yamaha PF-800 Turntable/ Sure V15 Type V Cartridge Carver TL-3100 CD Yamaha K-1020 Cassette dbx 1231 EQ dbx 3bx Series Two (mothballed) H.H. Scott 830z Analyzer Monster Interlink 300 mk II Original 12ga. Monster Cable dbx 200 (mothballed) dbx nx-40 (can't believe I still own this thing! Mothballed) Technics R&B Series SB-7 (mothballed) Technics R&B Series SB-3 (mothballed) Yamaha NS-W2 (mothballed) SAE 5000A (mothballed but perfect shape)

For improving the bass try this... To do this you will need an SPL meter (Radio Shack about $35 for a hand held model). Put the meter on the back of your seat of your listening position. Turn the unit on but DON'T MOVE IT! Next you will need some sort of pink/white noise generator (some separate eq's have them). Turn on the NG to about the same volume that you would listen to your music at. Again, don't touch these settings throughout the test! Draw up a grid-like sheet that lists "side wall" on a Y axis and "back wall" on X axis. The graduations should be about every inch for each axis (I started at 2" by 2") Next, move your speakers to about the closest to they can get to both walls, take a reading and write this down as your x" by y" measurement. Next move the speakers to the measuring position. Example: first reading was at 2" by 2" then the next reading would be from 2" by 3". It comes down to taking a measurement at about 160 some odd positions (took me 4 hours). When it's done just pick out the highest reading at a reasonable distance away. Keep in mind that when you start taking readings closer to the microphone it may be from just that: being closer to the mic. In that case you'll be reading an increase in attenuation and not room resonance, so you can use your own judgement to disregard those readings. In the end a couple of position readings will jump out at you. That's where the speakers should go. After I did my room I put it all into an Excel file and drew up a graph for fun. If you want I'll e-mail it to ya. Good luck! P.S. To endure the noise for that long a time I put on some ear protection used in an equally expensive handgun shooting hobby. I also turn down the treble from neutral to -6db so as not to even give the tweeters a chance to overheat since they are the weakest driver in the cabs. ------------------ Tom KLF-20 Mahogany Carver Receiver MXR-150 Yamaha PF-800 Turntable/ Sure V15 Type V Cartridge Carver TL-3100 CD Yamaha K-1020 Cassette dbx 1231 EQ dbx 3bx Series Two (mothballed) H.H. Scott 830z Analyzer Monster Interlink 300 mk II Original 12ga. Monster Cable dbx 200 (mothballed) dbx nx-40 (can't believe I still own this thing! Mothballed) Technics R&B Series SB-7 (mothballed) Technics R&B Series SB-3 (mothballed) Yamaha NS-W2 (mothballed) SAE 5000A (mothballed but perfect shape)

I'm not gonna say that this is definitely the problem source but it's a "maybe". Unfortunately cd's are not created equal. Some were engineered better, used better equipment, recorded at different output levels. For instance, the Steely Dan cd that gets talked about quite often on this BB was art in itself. It was well engineered on damn good equipment and has a rather strong output (loud) level. The stronger the output signal the more chances it will reveal all and any imperfections in the source recording. See if you can pin-point wether the hiss increases or decreases with a stronger or weaker output signal. Here's a hint: Most cd's made from older (more than 15 years) analog tapes will more that likely have a weaker output. Other than that possibility the only thing I could say is that the sensitivity of these speakers is so high that they can/will reveal more imperfections in equipment. If that is the source of the hiss then unless your willing to go with separates (pre-amp, amp, tuner etc.) I wouldn't fret it too much. If your using the receiver for an HT set up, going with separates can get rather pricey. To go along with that there are some receivers that are better than others when it comes to what you hear. The BB may be of some help but it's real hard to find someone that has the exact equipment you do to make a comparison. ------------------ Tom KLF-20 Mahogany Carver Receiver MXR-150 Yamaha PF-800 Turntable/ Sure V15 Type V Cartridge Carver TL-3100 CD Yamaha K-1020 Cassette dbx 1231 EQ dbx 3bx Series Two (mothballed) H.H. Scott 830z Analyzer Monster Interlink 300 mk II Original 12ga. Monster Cable dbx 200 (mothballed) dbx nx-40 (can't believe I still own this thing! Mothballed) Technics R&B Series SB-7 (mothballed) Technics R&B Series SB-3 (mothballed) Yamaha NS-W2 (mothballed) SAE 5000A (mothballed but perfect shape)

Hey Al! Are there any plans to delve into the Legend line for crossovers? Are they even worth it? I have a pair of KLF-20's that I'm upgrading from a Carver Receiver (MXR-150) to a Carver C-1 pre-amp and a Rotel RB-1080 (most likely) amp. I suppose the cost/value scale would depend on the person with the ears and the $$$$. ------------------ Tom KLF-20 Mahogany Carver Receiver MXR-150 Yamaha PF-800 Turntable/ Sure V15 Type V Cartridge Carver TL-3100 CD Yamaha K-1020 Cassette dbx 1231 EQ dbx 3bx Series Two (mothballed) H.H. Scott 830z Analyzer Monster Interlink 300 mk II Original 12ga. Monster Cable dbx 200 (mothballed) dbx nx-40 (can't believe I still own this thing! Mothballed) Technics R&B Series SB-7 (mothballed) Technics R&B Series SB-3 (mothballed) Yamaha NS-W2 (mothballed) SAE 5000A (mothballed but perfect shape)

Take a look in the Technical Questions part of the BB. There is quite a discussion going on there.

As much as I did relish the idea that Uncle's did give me the best price on my KLF-20's I do have to give a slight review. To Talk to anyone on the phone that is using English as their primary language would be an extreme rarity. Then after the sale and receipt of my order I had to just short of threaten them to send me the sales receipt. When I did get the receipt it was hand written with the correct total but the breakdown prices were wrong (product+shipping). It took a total 5 e-mails, 4 phone calls and 3 1/2 weeks to get the aforementioned paper. The original product I ordered, however came on time and without incident from a private trucking company. Good luck!! ------------------ Tom KLF-20 Mahogany Carver Receiver MXR-150 Yamaha PF-800 Turntable/ Sure V15 Type V Cartridge Carver TL-3100 CD Yamaha K-1020 Cassette dbx 1231 EQ dbx 3bx Series Two (mothballed) H.H. Scott 830z Analyzer Monster Interlink 300 mk II Original 12ga. Monster Cable dbx 200 (mothballed) dbx nx-40 (can't believe I still own this thing! Mothballed) Technics R&B Series SB-7 (mothballed) Technics R&B Series SB-3 (mothballed) Yamaha NS-W2 (mothballed) SAE 5000A (mothballed but perfect shape)

Somewhere 'round here is a Panasonic Take-N-Tape with a Bud-Man (super-hero) sticker on the back. LOLOLOLOL

M.H. Try starting with the speakers closest to the back wall (about 2cm.) and move them out 2cm at a time and listen to them between moves. The magic number for my KLF-20's is 7 inches (about 17cm.). The distance from the side wall can matter too. For mine that number is 8 inches (about 20cm.). After that there is the amount of tilting in that sounds best to you. When you sit and listen to them you should be looking down the center of the speakers. I know what you mean about wanting them to sound better, I would start off with better speaker cables. It's the least expensive and if you get better equipment in the future then it will be one less thing to worry about. I recently found that isolating your equipment from vibration from the speakers can help a lot. I found a sheet of very dense foam rubber about 2 cm thick and cut it in 6 cm. circles with a sharp X-acto knife (No. 11 blade) and put a circle under each foot of each unit. This made a big difference with the tweeters sounding better. But now I have a little less bass. Time to experiment some more!! Some people like making all these adjustments but I don't. I just like to play music and be impressed. Have fun!! ------------------ Tom KLF-20 Mahogany Carver Receiver MXR-150 Yamaha PF-800 Turntable/ Sure V15 Type V Cartridge Carver TL-3100 CD Yamaha K-1020 Cassette dbx 1231 EQ dbx 3bx Series Two (mothballed) H.H. Scott 830z Analyzer Monster Interlink 300 mk II Original 12ga. Monster Cable dbx 200 (mothballed) dbx nx-40 (can't believe I still own this thing! Mothballed) Technics R&B Series SB-7 (mothballed) Technics R&B Series SB-3 (mothballed) Yamaha NS-W2 (mothballed) SAE 5000A (mothballed but perfect shape)