discorules

It will be a time wasting effort. With stereo amps and receivers, there are only two amplifiers and 50 wpc in your case is it. If you add a second set of speakers to the receiver, you may get little more power overall but at the likely expense of a little more distortion. This is hardly worth the effort however. Your best bet might be to step up to higher sensitivity speakers. In that case you are at the right place, Klipsch.

Well, I've heard HDCD over some pretty impressive setups and I didn't hear anyhting so special. XRCD and it's licensed variants to me are well worth it however. No special cd players needed but they will sound their best on better quality systems. The JVC website explains the technology behind this.

I have to agree with those who say to check bass management. Yes, this means reading the manual. Replacing the receiver might bring up the same bass issues. My personal favorite is Harman Kardon although Kenwood should be more than adequate for HT.

Hey Steve. Nice picture of your amp. Your tube setup sure looks sweet. Showoff.

quote: Originally posted by Prana-Bindu: Is it best to totally minimize resistance? or does too little resistance have sonically detrimental effects? Is the gauge size the only method of reducing resistance, or do other factors such as design (braiding, solid, etc.), nature of shielding, or the type of conductor used affect the resistance of the cable? Is the 16 gauge solution the one that gets maximum reduction in resistance, or is it considered enough by convention (much like the 16-bit/44.1khz sampling rate was considered sufficient) I'm no expert but I'll do the best I can. Ideally you would want O ohms or no impedance in the cable but in the real world there is always even a slight amount. Ideally, the lower the better. This is not to say that at some low impedance level you will hear any difference with further lowering. The gauge method is an indicator of the size of the cable and is a direct indicator of the cable resistance. More acurately, in the real world impedance is the proper term since it includes inductance, capacitance and resistance which are all there. The resistive component in the audio band is the over riding factor so the reactive (capacitance and reactance) components are generally ignored when cable lengths are relatively small. Solid cable has somewhat lower resistance for a given gauge though it's big drawback is it's difficulty of use. Sixteen gauge is typically used due to cost performance relationship. Nothing magical about it. If you can afford 12 gauge or better, get it. Generally though one would be hard pressed to tell the difference between 16 and 12 gauge at short lengths like 15 feet or less. As for braiding, I have read and heard various things that I can't verify or know enough about to say. I think I read somewhere that the relationship between resistance, capacitance and inductance was one of interdependence. In other words, to have optimal ratings of one meant a compromise in one or both of the other. Is this the case? Not necessarilly. I explained a most of this above. Is the relationship of the length of the cable to the capacitance and inductance problematic insofar as there is a length threshold after which those characteristics become a problem? or are they gradually related to the length and shorter lengths are by convention not a problem below a generally agreed upon maximum? I haven't heard about generally agreed upon lengths. I will say that very long parallel cables have added capacitance, series inductance and increased resistance. These effects can be easily measured. Ultimately however, listening will determing if cable replacement is necessary. Now we're getting somewhere, bruh's.... What about a cable's susceptibility to picking up radio frequency and electromagnetic interference? How do the various methods of preventing this compare to each other? Is a braided design more protected than one that uses thick insulation? What about other means to minimize this? Is it even a factor, or is there a big margin of error within the limits of human hearing to detect the anomalies created in the playback by RFI and EMI? I suppose it can't hurt to protect against EMI and RFI by either method if properly applied. My own experience though is this is a overstated concern. I've had some 26 gauge cheapies that came with some cheap stereos and I do not remember any problems with that, at least not from the speaker wires. When I got EMI or RFI it was from the front end of my electronics. Does the kind of termination make a difference? Is the signal affected by a soldered terminal differently than by a crimped terminal? Does electricity even care? Yeah, what about how electricity feels about all this? Electricity is people too.... This is another silly part of this cable hype. The termination is only important in so much as connectivity. Nothing mystical happens whether it's spade, banana or bare wire. Oh yeah, the electons are really hurt that you didn't dress 'em in a nice spade connector. Is the impedance of cable a factor? See above. I know: you're all gonna tell me to take classes in engineering. No. Just look at what PWK uses. Save that tuition money for retirement. Textc>Text

Well Pranu, I believe the most critical issue as it pertains to speaker cables is it's resistance. Both because of the potential for dissipation and wasting the power from your amp going to the speaker but secondly and most importantly, the return electrical energy from your speaker to the amp. Most amps, particularly solid state amps will appear as a virtual ground to this return energy and dissipate it. This is important because if it isn't it will distort the audio signal coming from the amp. When a cable has significant resistance power is lost and noticeable distortion will occur at various parts in the audio spectrum. Therefore it is often recommended that 16 gauge or better gauged cables are used. Other electrical issues pertain to reactive components like capacitance and inductace within the cables. These can be an issue when using extraordinarily long lengths and the effects will typically be heard as frequency response abberations. For most setups however where lengths run no more than 15 to 20 feet, this an insignificant issue. For very long lengths there are simple tricks available using standard cables to overcome reactive issues. I believe these issues have been well understood for a long time by Hi-Fi manufacturers.

quote: Originally posted by Prana-Bindu: I doubt that any of us dispute the fact that paying $5000 for two 8ft runs of space-age, Ron-Popeil-certified God-wire goes a long way to convincing people that they hear a difference. It goes just as far as double blind tests go to convincing someone that his/her perceptions are unfettered by bias or any other expectations. DBT's may add the bias that one's senses are free of error. My point about the vocabulary of them fancy-lad magazines is that the differences of which we speak are so subtle/obscure/minute that they tend to remain unnoticed until we look for them specifically. If you show me two aerial photos of a section of a stadium filled with Nebraska football fans (even in a double blind format) and you ask me if I notice any differences between the two photos (especially if the photos were taken very far away -- as if with a cheap clock radio), I'll only be able (at best) to notice if one photo includes a big "Notre Dame Sucks" banner and the other doesn't. Even if the photos were taken with the best camera out there (such as those fancy-lad Mark Levinson cameras with the neat round platic buttons), the differences identified would be relatively huge: the pejorative banner, that there are more people wearing red on the right upper corner in one of the photos, etc. If, instead, the question to the viewer is "Do you notice a difference in the number of white people between the two photos?", that difference, if any, will be identified. Without that question, most people wouldn't ever bring it up -- unless it was obvious. None of the differences I've ever noticed between wires would be obvious, to the uninitiated (I love that word). Double blind tests don't prove that there is no difference in the sound of cables; they only prove that the particular listener did or didn't identify any. To lack mathematic proof that different cables carry a signal differently with sonically relevant results and thereby conjecture that all cables produce equal sound is the same mistake one makes when one conjectures that cables do color the sound differently from that same lack. Otherwise, we can stay away from scientific vocabulary and start talkin' in terms of sense perception, and no amount of blinding our prejudices will make our own hearing uniform or free from all bias. After all, if you participate in the DBT already believing or suspecting that cables don't make a difference, how free from bias are you? It's very easy to ignore the minutiae that make this nightmarish hobby such a joy. If electrical signals are so simple to understand, what characteristics of the electrical signal going through the cables are relevant to the system's ability to reproduce music? Does it's smell matter? Does the amount of energy required to break the valence bonds matter? What about the color of the shielding? If we're not gonna use the vocabulary of electricity to answer these questions, we're just conjecturing. I suspect we don't yet have an exhaustive list of electrical phenomena that are relevant to the reproduction of music, but I'm sure NASA is on it. Prana please. It has been shown that there are measurable differences between cables. These differences though might for example be exhibited most notably as one approaches the megahertz range. This is well above the audible range. The point is can one(you) reliably tell when you are listening to one cable vs another. In a double blind test I feel certain that most of us will consistently be able to distinguish between a Khorn and a Bose 901 for example. We may not now the brand of speakers at the time but we would be able to identify brand A vs brand B. Can you make the same claims for cables in the same environment?

quote: Originally posted by forresthump: discosucks, you're going too far with the quote thing. makes me question anything you say. We do have the capacity to read previous posts. Since your name implies an IQ smaller than small feet, I include quotes to allow you to follow. Perhaps even long quotes is more than you can handle.

quote: Originally posted by Prana-Bindu: It seems rather funny to me that the absence of an explanation for a perceived difference in a particular vocabulary (that of electronics or physics, e.g.) leads to the assumption of equality. What then, is the math and measurement that leads to the conclusion that there is no difference? If we're going to be strict about our demand for the vocabulary of cause and effect, we cannot resolve the issue speaking of people's perceptions (including double-blind tests or any other hopeless attempt to quantify the judgments of taste). After all, depending on what I ate 30 minutes ago, she loves me... she loves me not... she loves me... . Nevertheless, if no explanation in such vocabulary is available, it is reasonable to conjecture that there is absolutely no difference? That's like believing the core of the earth is made of nougat because you've never been there. Equality is an idea that helps us organize the dirt in which we live. It's impossible to make a point.... I've found that the more audio vocabulary I learned in the past year or so, the better able I was at noticing differences in components, placement, recordings, etc. If you put me in front of my RF-3's next to a pair of Aerial Acoustics 6's a year ago, all I would be able to tell you after 1 hour of listening is that the Aerial's sound clearer and with more bass. Put me in front of the same speakers today for 15 minutes, and I can tell you that the Aerials are better balanced, are more laid-back, reproduce more detail, have tighter and more bass, project a wider and deeper soundstage, are more dynamic, less bright, have a much darker background, etc. Have me compare Kimber 8tc and the wee-thin compact stereo wire, and the available vocabulary diminishes quite a bit. Darker background, more detail, and approaches faster dynamics. Put me in front of those cables a year ago, and I'd be lucky to notice the darker background. Maybe some o' y'all just can't walk the talk.... We need to determine exhaustively what aspects of the electrical signal are relevant to the stereo system's reproduction of music, before we start quoting identical measurements between Nordost Valhalla cable and grandpa's barbed wire fence. Otherwise, you might as well tell me that there's no difference because you measured the lengths of the cables and they were identical. After that gargantuan task is accomplished, we can ask ourselves how the various characteristics of cable affect such relevant aspects of the electrical signal. Otherwise, it's just he said, she said, he said with his eyes closed, she said with her eyes closed twice. Whoa! Lots a words there Prana! To put it more simply, you seem to be putting the cart before the horse. Basically if you or any other group of people can tell the difference between exotic cables and Home Depot 12 gauge specials using double blind test then yea, go ahead and do research for the scientific reasons. However to do research on unfounded claims or based on less than objective sources when they are readily available is fool hardy and not worth investigating. If the cables make a difference folks believe they hear perceived differences then no amount science will make a difference.

quote: Originally posted by TBrennan: I've participated in double-blind tests where competant zip-cord and "audiophile" wires couldn't be told apart. And I figure if more than competant wire was needed the old-timers like Thuras, Wente, Olson, Hilliard, Lansing and Voight would have known, these guys were serious scientists and engineers working for the telephone, radio and motion picture industries not "audiophiles" putzing around in the garage. And afterall PWK used bellwire in his speakers, personally I think he knew what he was doing. It's also highly suspect that audiophile wire came on the scene at the same time as the self-indulgent, gullible baby-boomers came in the hi-fi market, you know, the kind of ninnies who can't even have a simple cup of joe without making it a big deal. Also note that wires are touted the most by "high-end" types who have crummy hi-fis anyway, like I'm gonna take anything seriously from some overwrought, tin-eared ninny who thinks a Pro-Ac or Vandersteen is a good speaker. Right On TBrennen! I couldn't have stated this any better

Are your speakers brand new from the factory? Do they sound harsh on vinyl and FM sources?

quote: Originally posted by Ray Garrison: What are you driving them with - CD/DVD/Phono, preamp-amp, receiver, etc.? Ray's point is quite right. Though I don't own them, I've heard them enough times to know they are mercilessly accurate. Don't even waste your time down the speaker cable path unless you are using something tiny like 24 gauge wire.

quote: Originally posted by Audio Flynn: I bought this in 1978 and discintinued its use full time in 1993. I turn it on for a couple of hours a few times a year and the strobe indicates it holds speed pretty good. I have been thinking about the Music Hall MMF5 or an entry level Rega or Rotel. Should one just get a new turntable? model recommendations? Opinions always apreciated! I agree with BobG. Those dual tables were pretty decent. Newer isn't necessarilly better. What are using for a cartridge?

quote: Originally posted by Olaf: fire pinch Here's a funny thing that happened a few weeks ago. Some friends stopped in and of course I had to show off my RF's. After listening a while,the one said"They sound good but they're too bright.' I walked over to my drumkit and crashed a few cymbals and asked him "Do still think they sound too bright?" His jaw dropped in amazement as he realized how accurate the RF's produce the highs. He then said "no way,I didn't realize cymbals were that high pitched." He was just used to listening to dark sounding speakers. Anyway,don't be afraid to buy them. They are a huge bang for the buck and I'm sure you will be pleased. They are simply outstanding in their price range. I'm glad you mentioned cymbals. I frequently get a chance listen to live music. You are right, cymbals are bright in that the highs are strong and are rich in harmonics. They are also very dynamic. That's where klipsch really has it right especially in the heritage line. I often tell some my audiophile snob buddies to listen to live music and tell me if they know any speaker that reproduces it any better than the Khorn.

quote: Originally posted by onkyo: I have my SB-3 hooked to a Onkyo TX-DS595 & after 5 days of use the woofer in one stopped playing. If I pressed on it gently it would begin to play. Was told voice coil is SHOT! One prob. may have been cause I had it set to Large speaker & not small to send more of the lows to my LFE SUB. Also was told the TX-DS595(75w) is under powering the SB-3? Anyone have a clue on the price of a new woofer? And if I should upgrade to the TX-DS696(100W) so I don't have to crank them up to 50-55 out of 64(volume number varies on audio setup) Sounds like a defective woofer that should be a warranty replacement. I have sb3s powered by a harman kardon hk3370 receiver which is rated @ 70 wpc into 8 ohms and a rca HT receiver rated 80 wpc. The speakers worked well and played loudly.

quote: Originally posted by steve: Got a question for all you techies out there. As we all know, Klipsh are known for their sensitivity ratings, especially the KHorns. I run a pair of KHorns, powered by an 8 watt tube amp built by Assemblage (Sonic Frontiers) and an Adcom GFP565 preamp. I got tired of having no volume control range i.e. turning it up to "2" on a scale of 10 was the loudest I could take! So here's my question.. I bought an outboard attenuator made by Niles Audio, (4 inputs, one output) and put it between my CD player (Adcom GCD750) and the preamp. Turned it to about 1/3rd of the way up, and now I can use the Adcom's volume control with greater flexibility, from 1 to 5 out of a scale of 10, hence the volume changes gradually. Here's the question. What with a new piece of equipment introduced (basically a filter) would you say I have degraded the sound? I ask this, because I swear I can hear a very slight addition to "background hiss". I was told that since this attenuator is passive, that nothing would be added. Any input (pun not intended) is appreciated! Thanx! Steve With the addition of an attenuator, it makes sense that you detected a slight increase in noise, in this case a hiss which might possibly be thermal noise generated within the resistors. That should be your most significant and noticeable degredation. I would not concern myself with other nonlinearities like harmonic and intermodulation distortion.

quote: Originally posted by talktoKeith: What really amazes me is that people are able to determine whether or not the claim of better sound is true or not by simply reading text,rather than actually trying them themselves.I suspect these same people buy speakers without auditioning them, although they probably have read the specs. Keith I listened to the fancy cables. This time, a fool and his money wasn't easily parted. They didn't offer any improvement over my 12 gauge Home Depot zip cords. Well, the fancy stuff was perty though.

quote: Originally posted by Rob_S: For the perusal of anyone interested: http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/002599.html scroll down to the post by "eyespy." Great Posts. Yours and eyespys. I believe he thoroughly summed up exactly how I, yourself and others feel.

quote: Originally posted by Prana-Bindu: Forgot to post the sites that mentioned the cable/jitter connection: http://www.echoloft.com/articles/jitter/jitter.htm (relies on manufacturer) http://www.digido.com/jitterletters.html (attributes the phonomenon to the point where cables would terminate and the DAC inputs begin?) http://www.nanophon.com/audio/jitter92.pdf (a paper on jitter by some dude named Julian Dunn -- acquired from http://www.geocities.com/venhaus1/Audiolinks.html ) Most peculiar, Mamma.... Thanks for the articles Prana. I've read most of them and I am getting the idea that the master clock that controls the sample and hold will determine the impact of jitter in recovering the audio signal. I was not convinced in the articles t

quote: Originally posted by Prana-Bindu: As I understand the matter, a huge amount of the digital jitter present in a digital playback system is picked up in the cable. I've read that it has something to do with the fact that the clock data is not separated from the sample data; this is why that I2S (read I-squared-S) cable is supposed to be so great for digital playback -- it carries the two sets of data separately. Of course, this would only be a concern when using separate digital to analog conversion/upsampling/interpolation/etc. Beyond that, my understanding hits the brick wall, as it were.... It's not just 1's and 0's, my friend; it's also information about when to play each 1 and 0. I am fascinated by this. Do you know where this info on jitter and cables can be found?

quote: Originally posted by Randy Bey: I must have been asleep for a while to miss out on this exchange. Let me throw my hat in the ring right now and state that (IMHO) wires make a difference. Over a year ago I switched from zip cord to cat5 network cabling for speaker wire. At the same time I made several other changes, and, quite simply, the rest of my rig was not all that wonderful, so... I didn't hear a difference. At least I felt that I had addressed a potential area of improvement, so I left the cat5 in place. I continued to use the red and white "provided" interconnect cables for the components in my stereo, with the exception of the CD player, which was a recent purchase. I bought a pair of Audioquest cables (a $10 purchase that I steamed over) to connect it with. At the time the only benefit to cables, in my mind, was that the "grip" on the RCA was good, and there was no oxidation. As an aside I was using all NAD electronics at the time, which has a respectable if not "hifi" name, with my Klipschorns. Eventually a friend came over with a couple of new cables, one from Wireworld and one from Kimber. We substituted the Audioquest with the Kimber. Gawd, did the Kimber sound bad! My system was very forward, meaning high end orientated, and the Kimber put it through the roof. It was a difference apparent in the first minute of listening. Then the Wireworlds got put in. Oh, so much better. The "forwardness" went away, and something that I can only call "spectral balance" came in. There was definition in the lower frequencies that was not there before. I ended up buying a factory second pair of Wireworlds for $49 on the Internet. Later I had a couple hundred dollars burning a whole in my pocket. Upon anothers advice I purchased (with a 30 day money back trial) a pair of Goertz speaker cables, a flat design with one conductor sandwiched on top of another. Lordy did they sound bad! They had such a bright sound that I took them out after a single weekend and sent them back. Fast forward a year or so. I have replaced all my NAD stuff with "high end" equipment, purchased used over a period of several months. All of this equipment, of course, made much larger changes than the cables did. The tube amps, in particular, did a glorious thing with the horn loaded speakers. Now I have a CD transport, and an external DAC, and a digital cable between them. This cable is purely 1's and 0's, right? How can it possibly make a difference? Well I'm here to tell you, brothers and sisters, that it does, and it did. I can hear the difference between the DH Labs Silver Sonic cable (which is laid back but with an excellent soundstage) and the Apogee WideEye cable (which is bright without the soundstage detail one would expect from such) and even from the DIY (Do-It-Yourself) digital cable I built out of coaxial cable and various other bits and pieces, including supplies from a stained-glass window store. So what wire do I have now? I still have the cat5 for speaker cable (which is DIY, of course), DIY cables from DAC to preamp, DIY digital from DAC to transport, and the Wireworlds I bought after the trial way back when are now between the preamp and the amps. I will probably be building replacement cables for the Wireworlds when I get the time and money. Twisted pair, foamed teflon coaxial designs, likely. Oh, and I also went into the power cord (yes, power cord) replacement mode. Although I did another mass change so the difference is hard to identify. I added a DIY AC power conditioner and popped for five Belden 14 gauge shielded detachable AC cords, $11 a pop, for all my equipment, which all now has detachable power cords, unlike the NAD stuff. I can't say that I heard anything in the way of improvement with the power cords/power conditioner. If it was there, it was too minor to notice. But, at least I know that there is no major gain to be had that way now. That kind of peace of mind for about a hundred bucks is worthwhile in and of itself. So I agree with the posters that if you have a high enough definition system, and good enough source to appreciate the differences, you can make changes to the way your system sounds. While they are not "night and day" changes, they are changes nonetheless. I never, except for the brief fiasco with the Goertz, went "high end" cable. And even now, most, and soon perhaps all, of my cables will be home brew. But in my opinion the effort is worthwhile. So you even claim to hear a difference in cables when digital data is carried on the cable?! Hmmm! One of the benefits of digital audio is it's immunity from those sorts of things. My rack isolator is also available to you Seriously. In addition to SB3's, I also have Maggies 1.6qr. I think most would agree I have fairly high resolution speakers. I also did cable comparisons at the audio salons. I could not reliably tell a difference using their high buck esoteric systems. My ears are in excellent condition and can hear subtle differences in cd players for example. But the perceived cable differences could just as easily be a shift in head position to one's mind being more acutely aware of certain details after each listening session regardless of cables. Without double blind test (I know some fear this bit of objectivity), this cable stuff is 99% bunk to me. I didn't say 100% because some cable problems may exist due long lengths and improper wire guage, coiling the cables, etc.

Well, I own both a SB-3 and a Magnepan 1.6qr. The klipsch's are used for HT and the Maggies for basic stereo listening. While I hope/plan on having a pair of Khorns one day, I would like to see Klpisch make perhaps scaled down version of the khorn. Not just in size but price. This would probably mean 45 hz response but it might be worth it. Even more so, work out some engineering magic so that the tweeter horn extends to and beyond 20khz within 3db. As for comparisons. Vandersteens are really over rated in my opinion and Klipsch's top models easily outperform them. As for my own 1.6qr. While they can't match the heritage line in terms of dynamic range, it does equal the heritage speakers in dynamic scaling. Both designs are low distortion and very linear.

Hey Kieth. Can I interest you in a audio rack stabilizer. It keeps your cd player rock steady so you don't lose any precious bits off your cd and your amp from moving thus allowing your amp to process signals without extraneous stress. The overall musical impact is detail like you dream about and unmachted musicallity. I'll part with it for $5000.

quote: Originally posted by TBrennan: Gamer---Audiophile wire is a con job. I've taken part in double-blind tests where expensive wire could not be told apart from lampcord. Sighted observations with wire are meaningless. Go to Home Depot and buy thier 12 gauge speaker wire at 36 cents a foot and be done with it. I've been down this path with others here and I agree with you. Some people insist on spending bucks on snake oil so hey, to each his own. Perception is too often more important than reality.

Hey guys. If you haven't caught it, check out this link. http://www.stereotimes.com/Klipschorn_Speaker_System.htm