edwardre

With regards to the component input quandry, I too had my concerns. I had the good fortune of being able to check out a LP350 projector from work over a few weekends and that was all it took. There are a couple of things to consider. First, the leap of quality is truly realized from composite to s-video. The positive difference from s-video to component is much less evident. I use the s-video and can report that it is excellent. Second, with a PC setup to be a HTPC, you would input to the M1-DA DVI port of the projector. An all digital path input that not only breaks the video signal down to the component video level, but allows you to tweak each component of the component video signal. This to me is far more useful if I ever venture down that path. However, as I said, the s-video input yields tremendous results and does not leave me wanting. There is a plethora of good info on the AVS forum. I myself, knowing nothing about projectors other than that I wanted one after checking out the work projector, was able to get everything I needed there. Lot's of opinions like any other forum. The screen material was cool too. Evidently, there is a place....Parkland Plastics....which has a vinyl like material that has the same properties as an expensive 'Dalite' screen. I bought a 10' x 5' sheet for $35 and contact cemented it to plywood. It too is fantastic. Pretty much what everybody there (at least us cheapos) uses to exclusion. I'm probably starting to sound like an InFocus shill, but truth is I am still maniacally giddy over this unit and the pleasure I've derived thereof. Even after a year of ownership it still amazes me with the level of clarity, detail and color saturation. I have never seen a scan line on a DVD. Here's a good review: http://www.projectorcentral.com/consultants_corner.cfm?ci=lp350_vw10ht ------------------ Ed

HII. To me, this ancillary 'chit-chat' is a requirement for it enables me to 'evaluate' the respondee. Not only is it highly enjoyable, but it affords the reader insight as to the person's likes and dislikes. This is VERY important when assessing the response to a subjective question. Suppose I was in the market for a HT system and I ask the question 'is DTS better than DD5.1'. I can get a hundred different perspectives ranging from absolute techno-babble to 'who gives a $#!^'. Generally speaking, I tend to place a higher value on the answers to these types of questions if I 'know' the persons answering, and the only real way I can see to get to 'know' a lot of members is through the exchange and banter that goes on here. Those that I can identify with through like interests are the responses that either conciously or subconciously get taken more serious over someone with say.......22 posts and an attitude........ ------------------ Ed

BTW - The LP350 is HD ready and compatible..... Also, true that RPTV will most likely be the province of near future masses. There are excellent, state of the art RPTV's available now that will no doubt take the owner well into the HD future. I too have an RPTV set up as the centerpiece of a second HT with Forte II's as the main speakers. 50" Proscan that produces a gorgeous picture. However, again I was speaking to the 'experience' of home theatre. And for that experience.....grand sound, grand video, you simply need a large picture. You cannot get the same feel with the size of picture an RPTV is capable of producing. IMHO, you need a screen large enough to fill your whole field of vision for the theatre effect. And isn't that at the core of what all of us are trying to emulate? Take the flick Mission Impossible II (take it or leave it that is..). When Cruise is on the rock face in the beginning of the movie, the sheer size of the picture gives you vertigo that you would not be able to get with a 60", 70" screen. That is the experience I'm talking about. ------------------ Ed

Thanks HDBR...much has been stated about the requirement of 4 ft clear extending out from the corner of both walls and floor for correct/best Khorn bass response. Actually, I think I read somewhere that it is 40" minimum. Anyway, I recall seeing PWK's "false wall" as depicted on this BB several times and it appeared to be less than that by a considerable margin. So....what's the deal? Why would Numero Uno make 'falsies' that were not up to spec? Is is the 40"/48" reading from the CORNER or from the 'end' of the speaker extending 40"/48" outwards? ------------------ Ed

Mooner...I have an InFocus front projector. The LP350. Considered by many (myself included) as the best bang dollar for dollar for your buck. Naturally, my vote would be for front projector too. I purchased this unit, used, from epay for $2125 and have not regretted it for a second. It is simply fantastic. I now have "holy $#!T" audio with "holy $#!T" video, as it should be. The problem, IMHO, with plasma, rear projectors, large direct view, etc is that no matter how you slice it or however much you pay for the best, you still have a (relatively) small picture. You simply do NOT get the same "experience" as you do with a front projector. Likewise, you can never go back. The visual "WOW" factor truly befits the Klipsch audio "WOW" factor. I would put my home HT experience against anyone out there with a smaller "big screen" TV/monitor. Anytime. Another benefit is the space savings. No bulky component intruding into the room, though a plasma will certainly not have this issue. I have seen the Infocus LS110 mentioned in this post and it too is a fine unit. Keep in mind that this is a 800x600 NATIVE resolution unit and you WILL lose some resolution over a higher resolution unit like the LP350. Both are DLP units with excellent color saturation and excellent video detail, with built in line doublers. You really cannot go wrong with either. I run mine at 10' x 5'. Takes up your whole field of vision, while Mr Paul takes up your whole sense of sound. You have not seen "Gladiator" until you've seen it 10ft wide. ------------------ Ed

Hey HDBR......what is your take on the best 'strata' for placing a Khorn? My HT room happens to be the only slab foundation room in the house. It is carpeted. Would a traditional wood foundation, carpeted, be better for 'feeling' the bass, or should the solid concrete slab be best? Or does it not make a hill of beans of diff? ------------------ Ed

Ren, I hope that you are not taking offense to differences in perceived sound quality. I certainly wasn't 'knocking' you nor does it seem that anyone else was. As you have acknowledged, it IS all subjective. And like Keith said, this 'subject' also prefers DTS, in all it's doctored glory, hands down. It would seem like all recordings are 'doctored' is some way shape or form to produce the end result. That's why there are Sound Engineers. Whether they are working towards a DD or a DTS end result. So I guess I don't understand some of your verbage about DTS being 'doctored' to sound good. Keith, as far as your question about DVD-Audio, that's what I was asking too. Our learned friend HornEd had advocated the 'small settings' in tandem with a killer sub to glean the most out of the HT experience. My question was 'how then can you realize the full potential of DVD-Audio given that bass management is limeted or for the most part, still non-existant? I'm ahem....all large myself and thoroughly enjoy the results, especially with DTS. ------------------ Ed

Hi Chris, sorry to have lagged on the sentiments but I have been away for the past few.... I am very sorry to hear of your loss. Please accept my sincerest condolences as well as best wishes for you and your family at this time. My grandmother went by way of liver cancer. Although it is hideous, like you said, it was a quick 'process' sparing her from the agony of a long treatment regime. Take care. ------------------ Ed

quote: Oh, and that rumor that dts is any less dramatic with the speakers set to "SMALL" is just not true. That only happens when you have a sub that can't measure up to what dts can dish out. I'm sure Boa or The Ear(s) doesn't find dts wimpy with their subs either! H-Ed - It is with the greatest respect that I disagree in part with this conjecture, at least as it pertains to my particular setup. In my experience, it wasn't that DTS was "less dramatic", just extremely 'brassy' or 'tinny' with speakers set to small. True, my KSW200 sub is a tad bit on the 'whimpy' side, and thanks to your offline input, the SVS is the next upgrade pending authorization from the CFO, however, I would think that if the sub was inadequate for DTS, it would be inadequate for DD5.1. That was not my experience. In a nutshell, with speakers set to small, DTS was lacking bravado and DD5.1 sounded as bass heavy as with all the speakers set to large. Which brings us back to bass management. Wouldn't it be true that without bass management and your speakers set to small, you would lose bass from wherever your 'small' setting cutoff as it is not routed to your sub? In any event, all I can tell you is that setting the speakers to large made a huge difference in the amount of bass heard and felt during DTS playback. Will be interesting to re-evaluate this onve the SVS is secured! Oh, also while I'm thinking about it, I just got a DVD-Audio player (yipee!!). Now I KNOW that DVD-Audio does not have bass management, that's one of the knocks on it as I understand it. In order to realize 96 or 192 resolution audio, you must use the 'ext in' as the digital (either coax or optical) is not allowed to pass more than 48K bitstream. Something about copyright protection (?). I believe that most receiver's 'ext in' simply amps the signal through to the speakers without 'processing' or 'conditioning'. Certainly my Denon 3802 states this. So, to that end, wouldn't you HAVE to set all speakers to large to realize the full potential of DVD-Audio? quote: Dolbys alogorithim is just better using less space for the same quality of sound as DTS thats what i mean by less efficent. Also everyone seems to note how DTS sounds a little better again its because they are not doing a level matched controlled comparasion. Dolby Digital is normally about 6bb quiter than DTS at the same volumne setting. Also the DTS tracks are often doctored up to help them sound better. Whereas the Dolby Tracks are pretty much what you hear in the theater. Can't speak for anybody else here but DTS doesn't sound 'a little better' to me, it sounds a $#!*load better! And it's not just that it's louder, it is far more dynamic and CLEAR. I attribute this to higher resolution. More 'bits' if info packed into an equal amount of 'time' results in less 'gaps' creating a smoother, detailed and 'fuller' experience not unlike a higher resolution picture. ------------------ Ed

HDBR - So, you're saying that the metal feet are for sliding and should be removed from the Khorn? Am I to assume that these same stamped metal feet should be removed from my Belle, Cornwalls and Forte II's as well? Jeepers, I was missing one from my Forte II's as well as one from a CW. Went all over town trying to find a new set and finally did. Now I should shed them? Or are you saying that they should be removed if used on a hard floor only? ------------------ Ed

Solo....my recommendation for both your questions is to shell out. A decent SPL meter can be had for around $30 at Rat Shack. Well worth the investment. Your Avia disk is pretty much useless for sound calibration without one. Despite what the manual says, I would setup according to the recommended process as described in the Avia setup or if your receiver is so equipped, hit the test tone button that sequentially sends pink noise to all your speakers and set the levels all the same as represented by your new meter in your primary listening spot. That would be your 'good starting point'. From there, tweak and tweak again until you get it where YOU want it. ------------------ Ed

Yup. These are the same horns that my Khorns came with. The fiberglass sectoral. Although the sound is indeed glorious, you may experience an occasional funny noise in the way of a 'clack'. I'm sure I heard the 'clack' but it could have been phsycological as I heard nothing before I heard talk of this tendency. Hope I didn't just ruin it for you. In any event, about 18 years ago, several years prior to my dad giving these Khorns to me, we replaced these horns with 511B's. Sound was virtually identical and if anything, I would have to give the edge to the 511's for a more solid 'feel' to the sound. Both horns are 500hz horns possessing the same size, flare and overall sonic qualities. But the 511's, properly damped, do not have the fiberglass tendency to 'clack'. We swapped these out based upon several testimonials read about how 'all' the sound engineers in SF in the 50's and early 60's were doing that to solidify the midrange sound of their Khorn studio monitors. Evidently during that era, it was THE speaker to use for sound accuracy. So there they sat on the top shelf of my dad's garage for about oh.....10 years before my mom's complaining finally won over. Sad but true. Landfillbait. Who would have thunk. Aaaaahhhhh MOTHER!!!!! ------------------ Ed

Jim....what crossovers did you have in those CW's? Although I'm sure it happens far more than we are told about, I'm not sure I've heard too often of xovers 'deteriorating' just from ambient air swirling around them. The crossovers in my 50's era Khorns souns as good as they did 50 years ago.....I think.... HDBR (or anyone) Are there certain types of caps that have the tendency to 'deteriorate' more than others? I note with interest that the AA's that I have with the big oil filled caps sound as warm and smooth as ever. However, I have an AA that originally came with my '74 Belle that has smaller round 'can type' caps and it sounds terrible. What about other components within the net? ------------------ Ed

quote: moon it's both - some stations have digital sound (the digital channels) & some don't (therefore it's analog). quote: so to play all thru a receiver/ht you need BOTH digital Boa...not so mine. I'm hooked up to Dishnetwork. Chose it specifically because it offered DD5.1 back when Direct was still trying to get it going. The receiver model I have is the 4700, ordered from the Dishnetwork service for $199. I've recently added another for the bedroom and it has that hard disk 'TIVO' type deal, though it's not TIVO and it only cost $147. BOTH units hook up to my DD5.1 Denons via Toslink ONLY. No need to have the analog inputs as the signal is all digital. So you assign 'TV' at the Denon as 'optical digital 1' and your off and running. I have found that very rarely do most channels broadcast in DD. There are a few DD pay for view movie channels that state "DD5.1". I usually go for the DD5.1 with Letterbox. It is comparable to DVD quality. Every now and then, one of the premium channels like Encore, HBO, or Starz will transmit a flick in DD. It's usually one of those things to where you're thinking to yourself....'hmmm that sounds pretty good' and you look over and see 'oh yeah, look, the DD light is on....' Dishnetwork is also the only satellite provider who has DD5.1 AND HD for the full experience, unless Direct has recently added that option. The HD decoder/DD5.1 Dishnetwork receiver is about $500 currently and you have to install an additional OVAL dish uptop your roof to aim at their dedicated HD satellite. Maybe next year...... ------------------ Ed This message has been edited by edwardre on 04-29-2002 at 01:44 AM

I could use one of those old clear plastic '50's like ones with Klipschorn etched in cursive. I have one but not two so my Khorns sport none ------------------ Ed

Isn't the K33 a 4 ohm driver? ------------------ Ed

HornEd, thanks for taking the time to explain to a detail level that I could understand. I did go Googling on DIY subs and came to the following conclusion: building my own sub(s) has been pushed out towards the 3 - 5 year plan and it would appear that (relatively) instant gratification can be had for under a G. Certainly that would afford me the luxury of coming up to speed on the mechanics of the sub at a more relaxed pace. I was sufficiently piqued by your comments "IMHO, SVS tubes or a really good DIY Sonotube build provide the kind of clean, quick and resounding bass that Klipsch Heritage deserves." and "adequate subwoofer SPL's to reference level (121.5 dB) should blend so well that you don't even realize that the lows are coming from the subs instead of the K-horns... or at least that has been my experience.", especially since our Khorns/Belle/CWs HT sounds to be very similar with the sub exception. In short....I want mine to do that too!!!!! So I perused the SVS site. Which one is the "BB darling?" Or better yet, which one will make my system behave like you've described? I"ll have to root around for someone who can demo one of these cylinders properly for me. Thanks again. ------------------ Ed

Hey HornEd....WRT your point one, maybe I'm reading this wrong but are you advocating setting the main 5 (FR, FL, C, SR, SL) to small EVEN if they are say...Khorns, Belles and the like which are capable of 'large' operation? It would appear that you go on to say quote: The popular notion that somehow one "loses" by replacing good sound in low frequency by better low frequency sound is more "common error" than common sense. which implies to me that you are suggesting that an 'awsome' sub produces 'better' LF sound than a KHorn or a Belle? If so, I would tend to agree in part...certainly you have more command over the intensity and sheer loudness, but I would question clarity and overall "even-ness"(?) of the bass experience. But of greater significance in my mind is that both DTS and DVD-Audio (and perhaps SACD) lack bass management. Would you not be doing yourself a disservice for those formats by setting your 'large' capable speakers to 'small'? I kind of thought that was the whole idea behind having an all 'large format' heritage system, so that you can take advantage of the smooth LF bass these behemoths provide? Totally agree with the other 4 points you've made and in fact, the sub upgrade is my next task. I am currently using the KSW200. This is an OK sub, but as far as realizing the full potential of my HT, it is 'sub'-par. I purchased it right during the transition from the KSW100,200,300 series to the KSW10,12,15. Initially purchased the KSW12. Took it home and was disappointed. Could not handle the opening heartbeat of Dark Side of the Moon at loud volumes without 'burping'. Took it back and replaced it with the older KSW200. This unit was twice the weight and handled the heartbeat test without flinching. That was then, now I find my system left wanting. I would like to build two myself. I know I could probably surf the sub section, but as has been stated, "far too many people ask the same questions that have been answered already in posts that have been relagated to post oblivion". Keeping in line with the times, I'll ask the following questions: 1. where can I find out more info on these DIY sono-subs? and 2. Ed, what would you personally recommend as a good fit for my setup (Khorns, Belle, CW's) keeping in mind my very constrained budget? Thanks ------------------ Ed

Put me down for a copy.... ------------------ Ed

Yeah, ditto what Doug said. What speakers are you running or how large is that concert hall that requires a setting of -5 to +5??? Jeepers! I've a 3802 as well. -18 sends the wife yelping out of the house with hands on head. -13 and the KIDS are lighting out like shot from gun. I've tested myself to the +5 or so level like Doug but could only take a few seconds. And my hearing is screwed up from tooo many concert and ear blistering sonic attacks. Hmmmm.....maybe thats why I can't hear the infamous 3802 hiss.... ------------------ Ed

Moon-er...Same with my T-2 DVD. DTS6.1(ES) but no 5.1. Since DTS 6.1 is really just DTS5.1 with the rear surrounds 'matrix'd' out to create a center rear from the 2 rear surround channels, I do not believe we are missing anything sound-wise, just effect wise without that rear center channel. BTW - T2 in DTS is spectacular. I used to think that DTS was too 'tinny' or 'shrill'. Evidently, earlier DTS had no bass management so if you had your speakers set to 'small', you were missing bass as it was not routed to your sub. I had my old KSC-C1 center and my Tannoy studio monitor surrounds set to small. When I upgraded to a Belle center and CW rears, I set the speakers all to 'large'. What a tremendous difference in DTS! Very lifelike. I'm not sure if the DTS bass management has been addressed in latter generations of DVD players or receivers. Crap, now I need a rear center. Anyone have a single CW or Belle laying around in the attic collecting dust? Ha ha ha..... ------------------ Ed

HDBR, thanks for taking the time once again to respond. While I'll be the first one to admit that throughout my 'ownership' period of these speakers, I have had bouts with 'lack of care and upkeep', sonically, they are as good as the first time I heard them. That would be close to 40 years ago as they were my father's, graciously passed on to me. The first musical sounds I heard as a baby were through these very speakers and I am still listening to them nightly. Again, visually, I would not say that they are a perfect "10", but think they have held their looks fairly well for 50 year olds! Probably not fodder for the woodstove just yet. Here's a pic that I'm sure the rest of the members are tired of seeing by now! Sorry for the crappy pic quality. http://216.37.9.58/ubb/uploads/edwardre/AUT_0729.JPG From the little bits and scaps of info I've been privy to, the 'KA' was suppose to be slightly narrower than the current build. This would certainly bear out as these are 2 inches narrower than a 'modern' Khorn. I guess in the final analysis, it doesn't really matter much anyway other than being a point of curiosity. I know now that NEVER, ever will I part with these except to pass them on to one of my kids. In the past 15-odd years that I've owned these, I've fell on hard times on occasion. I've sold just about everything I've owned, but just couldn't do it to my Khorns. Rather eat Bisquick for weeks on end than list them. Would tell you the story that I've been told by the old man as to their history, but I think the other members would ban me for life for 'story repeatus ad nasea'! Thanks for giving a look. ------------------ Ed

Kyle, sounds to me like you're driving yourself crazy here! Seeing as how you've stated that it's all new, Take the thing back to where you got it and tell them it is defective. Like I said before, mine too is new. Still trying to figure out the remote. However, a couple of things I have figured out is that 1. Ain't no hiss at low, med or loud volumes and 2. absolutely no crosstalk whatsoever. Zero. Zip. Nada. I've got Khorns, Belle and CW's hooked into the 3802. talk about revealing. At least if you trade it in for another, you'd be able to eliminate (hopefully!!) the receiver as the culprit and then be able to focus on another aspect of your system. ------------------ Ed

Thanks! Yes, that answers my questions for the era you were there and presumably after. However, what about in the early 50's? Would you have any insight? Reason I ask is because I have a pair of early 50's Khorns, custom made, with scant a marking on them other than on the first one there is the faint outline of 'KA' stamped into the wood of the bass bin. All components are stock for that era....Stephens Trusonic 103LX woofer, University SAHF mid driver, University Mid T/4401 tweeter. K500-5000 network. The components as well as the bass bin have labels 'tested and approved by PWK' as well as 'tested and approved by Klipsch and Associates'. They resemble the 'traditional' Khorn, but are strikingly different as well. Also have the original pamphlets that came with one of them. Someone once told me that they thought they were 'KA's, a precursor to the KB's that are still pretty much the style still, but the brocure does not elude to a 'KA', only KB's, C's and I believe D's. Been trying to run down the origin for awhile now and I figure you're the best bet I have so far! Thanks. ------------------ Ed

Now I'm a little confused as well. Given that WATTS is a product of voltage and current (Volts X Current = Watts), statements like "When you pump out higher current, less watts, it produces a cleaner sound than lower current, higher watts" and "HK operates at a much heigher current than denon which balances out the fact that the HK only puts out 75 watts vs the Denon which puts out 110 watts" makes no sense. The voltage is a constant, right? ~120V. Current will vary depending on the load. In this case, speaker impedence. The combo of voltage and whatever the current turns out to be based upon speaker impedence determines the watts. So how can you have a 'higher current/less watts situation given a constant voltage and a reference impedence (let's say 8 ohms)?? ------------------ Ed