bracurrie

Justin, I am spending some noodle time thinking about sub and supersonic performance and it's impact on the audible range. How much roll off is there below and above the audible range in my amp?

It so tainted what managers and record companies wanted to achieve that many a great band and music never saw distribution and discovery. How many other great sounding and entertaining bands that could have been will never be known. That is why I am a fan of "Little Steven's Underground Garage" on satellite radio. It features samples of bands and music I never knew existed. That and Seti's blog posts on some interesting bands keeps my backlog of new material to listen to quite high. Brad Whats that you say???!!?? Seti's blog has more to it then just Retro Friday HiFi Hotties!!!! I guess I will have to scroll down a bit further on Friday's Shhh... My wife doesn't know

A 222c that I had refurbished and have used from time to time as an emergency stand in. I would entertain selling it to a good home.

Thanks, It sounds logical except the first part. If you are using the same amp to drive both the LP and HF channels how do you account for the difference in sensitivity of the two drivers. I assume you mean balancing the LF and HF with the crossover controls as mentioned in your next paragraph.

Its a dark subject for sure. But if you mean can tubes be dead quiet then yes. Now I believe. Quiet below the noise floor is I believe how you term this. The Little Ben cannot be heard emitting anything from my 8 foot listening position when at idle. Its so black that the noise on my 1950s recordings are again a feature.

This doesn't surprise me after listening a little while to Justin's Little Ben tube amp. He builds good stuff at very reasonable prices compared to "audiophile" stuff. I may have to consider one for my Grados.

Its a journey not a destination. measurements get me close and I find myself adjust a db up or down from time to time to make up for the source materiel. BTW the Little Ben is very quiet. With attenuators I could hear my Manley from across the room. Now I have to have an ear almost at the mouth of the horn to hear any noise at all. Damn horns

Yes you can rub that 5 watt surprise in, but after all I have read I kinda knew it was coming. Wish I had more time to soak though!

The Manley Labs GY50 Stereo 100 is sidelined with this change. I am having it reverted back to original spec as it was so noisy I had it modified per Manley instructions to increase feedback and changed the input tubes as I remember to basically lower the power and gain. It helped but only with an attenuator on the horns was I able to enjoy it. And yes I really did enjoy the amp. I tried to measure the level or output on the Manley and then after putting in the Little Ben adjusted gains to match, so assuming that the output levels to be the same after adjustment I would be comparing apples to apples so to speak. Let me take the time now to say that initial impressions were that the sound was thinner and brighter. I changed the crossover slopes from 12 db to 24 db and then to 6 db but settled again on 12 db. I turned off my 2500 Hz -8 db EQ and reduced the gain another 2 db to get it where it seems to better balanced with the bass bins. After only and hour or so of listening I was moved to start this thread. About halfway through writing the thread starter the shrill sounds at 2500 Hz caused me to turn that EQ of -8 db back on. Its very narrow and boy it really smooths things out like loud vibes, banjo and some guitar where I may have a room problem. I look forward to taking some measurements to more accurately balance bass and treble, I only trust my ears so much.

Please speculate or predict how each would change the presentation. BTW am I expected to match the detail of the packing? It was a work of art.

Ok, I know how it is. Serious discussions are prefered. And I get that. But I have to share exciting news. I have the Little Ben amp from Justin Weber's ampsandsound.com on loan while I await his building of the Stereo 15 I have ordered. Its driving my HF Eliptrac 400 horns with Faital HF200 drivers and the results are stunning. Clarity yes, but imaging that puts Alison Krauss not only in the middle but forward. Miles Davis on Kind of Blue is also elevated in the image. Can't wait till I can root out some well recorded bluegrass and see what imaging magic will emerge. Little time to say more, but an attached photo is always fun. I don't remember who put me onto Justin but Thanks.

Ok, now that deserves some DIY exploration by you technical speaker designer guys. A double 6 in. Jubilee would be 1/2 the size, right?

Maybe the Jubilee is too good. PWK had so much faith in the Jubilee it was to come in three different sizes. That's just too juicy to let go. Please elaborate. Intriguing to think of a smaller Jubilee, maybe a single driver version? Well I was at a pilgrimage around 2004 and saw some strange motor boards sitting in a pile which looked like they were designed for 6inch drivers. One of the Klipsch employees said that it was for one of the smaller Jubilees. He mentioned that there were to be a few different sizes but wouldn't divulge any more information.

Maybe the Jubilee is too good. PWK had so much faith in the Jubilee it was to come in three different sizes. That's just too juicy to let go. Please elaborate. Intriguing to think of a smaller Jubilee, maybe a single driver version?

Oh darn. now you've gone and done it!

This hobby is full of sexy products that are priced based on satisfaction not tied to how they sound. I actually talked to someone who admitted he was willing to pay a very large premium for a show piece that stoked his ego. This person even went so far as to say that he believed tube equipment didn't sound as good as solid state but because they looked better he was willing to shell out stupid amounts of money. All in all he was quick to say he had over $50,000 in his setup. Behind his back the wife just shook her head. I don't go there much anymore.

Let me share my experience. I had my Jub clones positioned equidistant from each other and the side wall with nothing between. No joy on imaging.Placed them in the corners with the Eliptrac horns pointing just behind my head in my listening position with nothing in between and I ended up with a big hole in the middle. I then implemented a quick and dirty middle channel using a forte II elevated to put the squawker and tweeter to equal height wit the Eliptrac. Lo and behold on a good many recordings the imaging was wide and deep with vocals in the middle when it was mixed that way. One day I received a phone call that distracted me when I was turning everything on and I forgot to turn on the center channel. Listening to Alison Krauss I was grooving on her voice appearing in the middle and the center wasn't even on as I discovered later. So then I removed the Forte II and the hole in the middle again reappeared. I then put down another rug extending all the way to the back wall between the speakers and turned the Eliptrac on a 45 degree angle like the Jub clones. Again with no objects in between the hole was still there but it was way better. A mono mix appeared in the middle, but Alison Krauss was still diffused left and right. So then I took an under counter fridge I pulled from my counter and placed it on the back wall in the middle because I had no other easy place to put it. Sat down with a long legal document I needed to review and discovered the hole in the middle was gone. Then working to improve bass response with the integration of a sub woofer I discovered that a near field listening position worked best for the room. I am now equidistant from each speaker with the horns pointing directly at me and wow can I perceive depth as well as left right if the music was recorded and mixed right. Remove the fridge and the hole reappeared but to a lesser extent than from my old non near field listening position. I believe but am not qualified to opine that reflections are where the magic occurs or is killed when it comes to imaging. If you can try it make sure you have reference material from which to make your comparison and make sure the floor between the speakers along the back wall aren't super reflective. Enjoy!

Maybe the Jubilee is too good.

PWK embraced advancement as was mentioned earlier. Haven't there been some improvement made to the Heritage speakers that are still offered new? Also, I see where according to the marketing materials from Klipsch that the non Heritage lines are better speakers. Wouldn't want to muddy the waters now would we.

I am going to jump in here as a user that is noise sensitive. You are probably going to use passive crossovers so your sensitivity won't be as high as mine, but I would keep in mind if you do take the active crossover leap a dead quiet amp is a must. Your choice is a journey not a destination. In my 4 years of horn speaker experience I have enjoyed 6 different amplifiers. I am about to try two more. Didn't think it was going to work that way but it has. No regrets just fun with toys and the learning that goes with it. Food for thought is a forum member's web site. http://ampsandsound.com/

And besides, there are the early to mid 20th century recordings that were done before the tech got perfected. I still enjoy some of those.

Yeah, I saw that. I was hoping for a third opinion. Simpler without.

I agree with this. I am active bi-amped with tubes on top and SS below. Besides, any idiot can spec out and buy a SS amp. It takes another level of insanity to mull over, choose and tweak a tube amp. More effort equals more results, right? No satisfaction with plug and play. As the ad on TV used to say "You have to EARN it."Now lets debate something meaningful, interconnect audio cables.

I also have purchased two of these tapped horn kits and drivers. I noticed over at the AVS forum http://www.avsforum.com/t/1238398/reed-exodus-anarchy-25hz-tapped-horn that the designer had batting at each corner of the horn. Is it needed and what does it accomplish?

Well, yes I was. But then I tried several other amps and discovered the same thing with them as well. The HF200 Eliptrac 400 is just that good. If I was running passives there probably would be no noise. I tried various EQs that either don't work in my room or didn't seem to work at all, but until I tried my Sunfire and listened to some bass heavy material I didn't know what I was missing. I also tuned the phase adjustment to get the timing of the sub right and that really made the bass clean and tight.Do you know the specifics of the EQ built into your passives? Thanks Seti