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Gnote

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    Do you need a horn subwoofer for your Klipschorn/ Lascala home theater?

    in Subwoofers

    Posted

    On 7/9/2014 at 12:06 AM, Chief bonehead said:
    On 7/8/2014 at 12:47 PM, Chris A said:

    This Frequently-Asked Questions (FAQ) thread discusses some reasons why horn-loaded loudspeakers sound more realistic than direct-radiating loudspeakers, such as cone-type and planar type drivers.

    Several manufacturers currently make or have made horn-loaded loudspeaker designs: Klipsch, ElectroVoice, JBL, Altec, and several smaller manufacturers.

    "Why do horn-loaded loudspeakers sound better than direct radiating loudspeakers?"

    Chiefly, the reason is due to low modulation distortion (i.e., not harmonic distortion). Horn-loaded electro-acoustic drivers typically have 25 dB lower frequency modulation (FM) distortion levels and 15 dB greater efficiency than when using those same drivers without horns to produce the same sound pressure level (SPL).

    "What is Modulation Distortion, and Why is It Important?"

    Frequency modulation (FM) distortion, sometimes called Doppler distortion since it is largely caused by the movement of the driver's cone/diaphragm at lower frequencies, is caused simultaneous modulation of higher frequencies that are also being reproduced by the same driver at the same time.

    Amplitude Modulation (AM) distortion is primarily due to driver nonlinear response when the cone/diaphragm is operating near its extent of maximum movement under high-load conditions. Figure 1 gives a visual representation of the two components of modulation distortion vs. time:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Amfm3-en-de.gif

    Figure 1 AM and FM distortion visualization

    Both of types of modulation distortion are very objectionable for listeners due to their non-harmonic frequencies that are produced.

    Many people are familiar with harmonic distortion. This type of distortion is due to integer multiples of input frequencies greater than one than the input or recorded frequency(ies) being reproduced on the output of the loudspeaker under higher load conditions. Figure 2 gives a view of frequency harmonic amount vs. relative input frequency:

     

    http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/audio/imgaud/hardis.gif

    Figure 2 Harmonic distortion visualization

    Harmonic distortion is not as audible as modulation distortion due to the internal signal processing of the human hearing system, particularly the lower harmonics like second, third harmonics. Higher-order harmonic distortions (fourth, fifth, sixth order harmonics, etc.) are more easily detected by human hearing. Some sources call this human hearing effect "harmonic masking".

    Contrasting the above harmonic distortion, modulation distortion (AM, FM, intermodulation, etc.) produces non-harmonic frequencies not found in the input signal driving the loudspeaker. Because these modulated frequencies are not related in integer multiples of either the lower or higher frequencies being reproduced, these distortion-produced frequencies are much, much more audible and objectionable than typical harmonic distortion. Figure 3 shows a visualization of both major types of distortion (harmonic and modulation distortion) versus frequency.

     

    http://www.klippel.de/typo3temp/pics/e06f652d9d.jpg

     

    Figure 3: Visualization of harmonic and modulation distortion

    Note that modulation distortion shows up on the higher frequencies reproduced, which is typically more audible than lower frequencies due to the frequency response/acuity of the human hearing system.

    Additionally, the modulation distortion frequencies shown in figure 3 are not integer multiples of either the lower fundamental frequency or the higher one. These non-harmonic frequencies are much more objectionable to listeners compared with harmonic distortion at the same relative amplitudes.

    It can be seen that harmonic distortion will also modulate the upper frequencies making the effects of harmonic plus modulation distortion much more objectionable to listeners. The effect of these types of mixed distortions can be described as the speakers sounding "loud" and "opaque" while responding to high input signals.

    "Why is Modulation Distortion So Much Lower in Horns?"

    Modulation distortion is produced when the acoustic driver's cone or diaphragm moves - and the more it moves, the greater the modulation distortion. Horn-loaded drivers reduce the amplitude by a factor of ~10-30 (relative to using that driver as a direct radiator) that the driver has to move to produce a certain SPL output level. Less cone/diaphragm motion equals less modulation distortion.

    Any acoustic driver that is horn loaded will experience a dramatic decrease in required motion in order to produce output SPLs.

    You forgot one word in your last statement.....properly.

     

     

     

    Do you need a horn subwoofer for your Klipschorn/ Lascala home theater?

    in Subwoofers

    Posted

    I'm confused @Tom05 are you saying you prefer completely horn loaded speakers except for when it comes to subwoofers ?

    I thought and I could be wrong , the lower the frequency the more you benefit from horn loading.

    5 hours ago, Tom05 said:

    went with what I could afford at the time , and never looked back , cause it works every bit as good as the horn.( 4 tn1220 in common corner 500 watts per sub) Keeps  up   with the Klipschorns with Lascala center Quartet and Heresy surrounds , FWIW I used to think the same way , that’s why I wrote this.

    The  reason you wrote this is the same reason I am replying .You are the first person I have ever heard have this opinion .

    In my experience people who prefer all horn loaded speakers , prefer the sound quality of horn loaded subs once they experience them.

    The size or other factors maybe not so much ... but sound quality always until now.

    You are entitled to your opinion  but I believe your opinion is more the exception than the norm and cerainly not something you should be professing to less experienced listeners.

     

     

    Does anyone have experience with the KL-650-THX

    in Home Theater

    Posted

    15 hours ago, willland said:

    This may be a problem.  Your Yamaha is entry level or near entry level and just may not have the horsepower to properly drive your THX system.

     

    Bill

    I was running the THX Ultra II system off a Denon 3805 Switched to Emotiva XPA-5's. It was a night and day difference , this system loves power.

    Please give me some advice on my "new" HT set up.

    in Home Theater

    Posted

    On 12/12/2021 at 2:31 PM, Dr_jitsu said:

    If Emotivas are great and a bargain, I think that amps in general are a rip off. Please correct me if I am wrong. If the XPA-5 is their flagship at $1500, then the cheaper ($600) BasX-5 must really be junk. 

    Sorry for your troubles . I have 2 XPA-5's that turned 13yrs old this week and they are still running Klipsch THX Ultra II's they have been rock solid and are built like a tank. 

     

    On 12/14/2021 at 3:40 PM, Dr_jitsu said:

    I see to have bad luck with amps, LOL.

    Seems so  but I agree with @wuzzzer Crown Amps seem to run forever .

    4-Way MCMs w/ split subs for sale.

    in Garage Sale

    Posted

    11 hours ago, RandyH001 said:

     how big of a room is needed  , and how much power do you need to push these speakers -

    I had 3 MCM's in a 12' X 16' room and it sounded better than anything I had ever heard until I put them in a bigger room  , I don't think a small room will hurt these much , I think I read on here at one point that large speakers can overcome the limitations of a space easier .

    Not sure how much power they need , I ran them briefly on an old Marantz 22??  reciever and it would go into protection when I tried to push it. Switched to a Crown K2 and WOW. Don't be fooled though these sound amazing at low volume and just amaze you even more when you push them a little , You won't believe how clean they play no matter what. 

    Be warned though , They will make a bad recording sound really bad .

    As for single bins .........YES !  

    I have 5 double bins and they are a mother to move and that's IF they fit through the space.

    The only regrets about MCM's are moving them and why didn't I do this sooner .

    • Like 2

    QUEST FOR A USED CAR CONTINUES: AUDI

    in Lounge

    Posted

    9 minutes ago, richieb said:

    I could bore you with a story about my 1999 Silverado w/62000 miles with a seized LS 5.3. But I won’t - 

    Sorry to hear that .I have a 2005 Silverado Z71 with a 5.3 and 260,000 miles with the original exhaust and I'm afraid to admit original spark plugs. Pretty much just tires , batteries ,brakes, a waterpump, and a couple alternators.But boy is she rusty .

    • Like 2

    YouTube Spinning

    in Lounge

    Posted

    51 minutes ago, jason str said:

    Aerosmith could not sing or play worth a dam and screwed up half the lyrics. I like them but this turned me off still to this day.

    I went to a concert at Comiskey Park in August of 1978

    Opening Act was AC/DC never heard of them - Holy Sh#$%^  Freaking Amazing 

    Next was Walter Egan - Good

    Then Frank Marino and Mahogany Rush-Very Good

    Then Foreigner- Excellent

    Aerosmith was so messed up you couldn't even tell what song they were playing and they got booed off the stage.

    • Like 4
    • Thanks 1

    WTB Crown amps

    in Garage Sale

    Posted

    I have a Crown CTS 8200 which I bought used in January and have decided to go in a different direction so its available if you are interested. Kinda cool because you can bridge each individual pair of channels if you wish. 

    • Like 1

    WTB Crown amps

    in Garage Sale

    Posted

    15 minutes ago, rmlowz said:

    They will sound better with the crown amps for sure but if you are setting close to the amps there is a possibility of fan noise.

     

    Rich

    Unless you run a K1' or  K2' there are few other fanless Crown models .

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