AllenTacey

Tubes blow 1980 Solid State tag team Carver and Hafler rules!! Put that on your Rega Planar 3 and give I a spin! Belt Drives Rule!!

When the sound is exactly what it is supposed to sound like, reproduces an excellent sound field where you can recognize for instance in classical music the woodwinds sound like they are isolated into their proper position string section where it belongs a piano does not sound weak in is tones, horns can be individually identified french horn from trumpet, saxophones, tubas and trombones all distinct. Cello, viola and violins from the highs to the lows remain seated not moving left and right on the stage. Rock music has a stage? Of course and if you know the group you know their positions drum set always in the middle Bass guitar on left, lead guitar centered while rhythm guitar is on the right. Guitars are crisp can rip can sound like Chuck Berry's "ringing a bell" while Country has "chicken picking" and hip-hop, rap, jazz or soul the bass needs to be very clear not that muddy shit pouring out of an overdriven car speaker. Listen to Stanly Clarke for Bass. Listen to Dave Brubeck for jazz. Listen to Muddy Waters BB King and/or Eric Clapton for Electric Blues. Paul Butterfield or Sonny Boy Williamson for harmonica. Frank Sinatra sang in perfect pitch as did George Jones. If you have a wide variety of music but just two speakers reproducing the sound between 20Hz to 35Hz for the low range up to a high range between 20kHz to 24kHz +/- 0 to 3dbs (I have an unhearable 1Hz to an unhearable 250kHz +0 -3 {and hearable from 30Hz to 24kHz +/-0}) THD .5 preferably .05 (.005 in my case) you probably have unbeatable reference sound. Earspeakers are usually sonically perfect and put out about 115dBs of sound pressure. Klipschcorns put out 114dBs @ 1 watt and can be deafening with a 1000 watt per channel amp. I am driving 2 speakers producing 98dBs each at 1 watt with a 2.5 dynamic range, somewhere over 600 watts @ a total harmonic distortion of .0005 above 1800Hz and .05 under 1800Hz. So what you need is achievable. I invested over a thirty five year period around $3000. Currently have $378 into amplifier, $300 into preamp, $540 (cost now $1800) into a turntable, $1000 into speakers, $350 into earspeakers. The sound is extremely close to a $75,000 system who's sound I used as a goal. Hope this helps!

I recommend using two Carver M-400's switched into mono mode, simple switch with y connector from a separate solid state preamp circa 1980. You will get tube sound from these. One Amp per speaker starting over 500 watts per channel with bass damping factor over 150 Frequency Response 1Hz to 250kHz. Specifications like these costing under $600? The sound is fantastic. I am using one Carver to drive the bass though my Hafler amp can do the same task. What I did cost me $378. Carver driving bass 293 watts per channel .05 THD and Hafler driving midrange and tweeters 250 watts min per channel .005 THD using a pair of Klipsch R28-F. My room is exactly half of the room you describe. I use a $300 preamp I bought in 1989 that has less than .005 distortion. I listen to the exact same music you do though John Prine is getting old! What I have resembles the $75,000 bi-amp tube and preamp CD player electrostatic speakers I listened to and tried to match. I have succeeded using about 1 watt and the ability of my amps to deliver the dynamic range to crest those crescendo's without clipping. Research go to some high end shops listen then shop on internet for antiques avoiding high prices for high quality powerful solid state with high damping factors...

a lot of excellent s/s preamps out there? have you tried using a good electronic cleaning spray (illegal Freon) on everything that moves or turns great for removing pops clicks hums etc?

John if you can unplug and disconnect everything do so. then connect a good source, I found my CD Player to be bad and an IPod will work for this test. I connected my Nano Preamp and one amp. Reconnected my speakers checking wire from end to end. Sound was perfect so I tossed the CD Player. Make sure you have no metal objects inserting hum. Nothing no phones no lights nada. If it still has audible white noise and is solid state bang it bump it and see if that fixes the problem. Good luck I have a preamp that picked up a hum and repair shop could not find the source...

Joe D I know how to fix that. Play Rocky Mountain Way by Joe Walsh but preferably James Gang and you will find everything back where it belongs because we all know that the Rocky Mountain Way is better than the way we had... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1uWA7VPGiE

My response on including a powered woofer/subwoofer into a Reference speaker setup (irrespective to how you perceive the sound). "Reference Speaker" defined: A reference speaker must be one that naturally and convincingly reproduces the sounds of musical instruments and voices. It shouldn't add or subtract any timbre or tonal traits of its own to the playback sound. It should not function as a quasi tone control, covering up flaws in a recording. Nor should it artificially emphasize bass content, unless the recording itself has heavily mixed bass (plenty do). When the speaker stops getting "in the way of" or impeding, the music, then it has attained true reference status. Speakers that have a frequency response down to 35Hz has plenty of bass. What is needed is an amplifier that can drive a 35Hz wave.

On my Third Wife so I can't use that nomenclature. My old friend "Old Jack" wife passed and she was his First Wife and he was old and has joined her in the Happy Hunting Ground. Old Jack was a retired Detective but at retirement became a prolific writer from Florida. Instead of Ground Hog Day he celebrated Swamp Bear Day who if he didn't see his shadow here will be 6 weeks left of Winter and if he saw his shadow there will be only 6 weeks until Spring, he called Apartment Buildings "Concrete Mountains". Thanks for reminding me! I still think it is a shame you went with a woofer...

What!? No Business!?!?

First learn to work with glues and setting laminates and verneers same as in cabinetry I am professtional but have not done that work in 35 years. It is like riding a bicycle. I cost is no object I'd look for a reasonable cabinet maker. One might look at it and be very reasonable. That is what I would do. There are shops that have a huge variety of both. I like a mixture of wood and formica maybe some marble? Lots of possibilities that will be beautiful! Maybe call a few places tell them your needs and display finished product here?

Zero you mentioned having a "reference" system. Can you tell us what you have other than the Klipsch Reference Speakers? This I take to mean being a reference it has no "color" added to reproduced sound a pipe organ sounds exactly like a pipe organ. I recently bought a pair of Reference 28Fs or shortened to R-28F. I owned one conservatively rated amplifier I bought in 1980 100 watts per channel at .0005 THD. Back then the only other amp I could find that was solid state costs over $3000. I want to bridge it into a mono amp but it cost more for the same amp sold 35 years ago. So I looked at another solution and found an amp priced $800 in 1980 and found one priced at $138 shipped. So what I did was to use the new 201 watt per channel amp to power the 28Fs woofers disconnected the bridge clips and connected my 100 watt per channel amp to the upper range. What I am getting is what I bought speakers producing reference sound. Around 1991 I listened at a high-end shop to a $75,000 reference system, tube amps, tube preamps and electrostatic speakers that reproduced the one instrument perfectly created perfectly isolated sound stage that when I moved around that sound stage remained stable. So it is 2015 and with $338 in amps $541 for a turntable bought by first wife Christmas 1980 that costs $1700 today Paul Klipsch and Company brought me an incredible feeling when speakers reproduced the exact instrument and stage reproduced in 1991 by a pair of 75 pound $40,000 tube amps. I just wish the label on the back said Made in the USA, I'd not mind if it said Made in Canada like my computers 4.1s and 2.1s Klipsch's; the only disappointment China...

Zero Klipschorns as well as being fully drunk are a folded horn designed so corners will work in most rooms with two corners side by side, rooms as small as 12'×12' (not recommmended) with a larger amplifier but because they are so efficient amps do not have to be huge.

Zero my first comment is great job for s first video show Klipsch needs to recognize your effort .

Just fishing...why do you need crossover repair kit?

CECAA850 Great Idea speakers are not plug and play. Even the solder is a special type...

Great suggestion Klipschfish. More great advice is to question why you bought them and then you opened them up? Can't blame the Seller! Use nothing other than Original equipment. Did you open up your electronic stuff first to be sure that is not the problem? Sure it all works? I recently bought a vintage amplifier dirt cheap. Put a CD in my player and the right speaker made horrid high frequency noise along with music so I went to bed pssed off thinking I got ripped off. Woke next day unhooked CD Player used Turntable and heard nothing but beautiful music. If it had not worked after first week I'd have sent it back not opened it up...

Garyrc technically you do not say the dynamic range of 250 watts at clipping is RMS. So I stand, really I am laying, corrected. A square wave only able to reach a rated 50 watts RMS or whatever watts at that points clips so technically has 0dBs of dynamic range. An amplifier rated 100 watts RMS with a dynamic range of 2.5 is expected to reach 250 watts using the same method of measurment that the amp reaches its claimed 100 watts, that is RMS or Ratio Means Square. Did this help? My amp might hit 253 watts before clipping. Clipping is when the output sine wave really clips possibly damaging everything; after a bit frying tweeters not the woofers. Clipping occurs when the signal rises then is cut short by lack of power. MOSfet's will shut the signal off. When I turned up the volume to my Stax earpieces to high the amplifier sonically shut off. Do you understand that at 250 watts it is still RMS and not RMS but rather a clipped waveform after specifications are exceeded? Now does everyone know why $2600 for Parasound is way to much because it applies too much negative feedback in its circuits?

Garyrc what I will say is I am frugal. The $200 amp could be purchased assembled for $300. I know how to put things together. I read the manual page at a time after the first read (and used acid free flux solder it demanded) took my time reread double checked my work. Everything good and not so good in 1980 had ridiculously priced equipment available for the rich. I never had those rich aspirations but I needed the best sound. Fortunately a very talented man had the same beliefs. Sold at 100 watts per channel .0005 distortion (have $4000 to match that?) but my separate peak reading meter revealed 200 watts driving my Stax earpieces. So it is 2015 now thirty five years later and I look on internet for my amp thinking of two mono amps and it s priced higher than 1980. So I looked at competitors stuff which was also priced higher but one priced right. I bought a 200 watt per channel .05 distortion amp because it has a rated damping factor of over 150 and altough it handles extremely high frequencies, 250,000Hz, I connected it to the bass speakers on my R-28F's due to it being sonically capable down to 1k +0 -3. I connected my original amp to handle the upper frequencies because it is rated flat 20Hz to 20kHz -0 +0. Solid state is better at high frequencies then tubes. Both my amps have imperceptible distortion even to birds. They are called separates as is my preamp turntable or anything else I connect. No DAC's USB's and phono amps are built-in. I have a high output moving coil Ortophon 540 cartridge and a Grado F-1 moving magnet cartridge and can say the lighter moving coil design tracks better. So $2600 is priced low for equipment that has .5 distortion does not put a conservative 600 watts per channel into R-28F's?? No wonder people think they need powered woofers? Spending $138 last month I have sound flat from 1Hz to 25,000Hrz coming from REFERENCE Speakers. Klipsch cannot be blamed for selling Speakers. Many competitors Speakers and 5.1 systems sound vastly improved. But REFERENCE loudspeakers do not need equipment with lots of neato switches, pretty lights and include cheap internal products so it can perform as if it can do everything well. This is perception. I have listened to a $75,000 system consisting of a tube preamp, only fed by a $5000 CD player, connected by 2 wires each the size of a 1" garden hose to two 75 watt mono tube amps again connected by garden hoses to a $20,000 pair of "transparent Electrostatic Speakers" (think they were Carvers?). Best system possible the sax clearly in place and amazed I stood up and walked toward that sound. The sound field remained rooted in front of me as I passed between the speakers more than six feet from the wall. The reasoning for tubes is the solid bass is said not to be possible by anything other then extremely expensive solid state equipment. Tubes mechanically have very high damping factors. It is also called Slew Rate to obfuscate things. It is also called Push Pull. Big woofers need electrical power to push big magnets in and immediately out. This is damping. The ability to produce a 30Hz waveform and then immediately stop. Rattle is produced when systems lack the ability to damp the speaker. A damping factor of 50 is excellent so both of my amps qualify but the "new" amp exceeds 150 down to inaudible levels. Speakers that include ports are better able to reproduce 30Hz waves because it takes 30 get of space to produce that sound. Hence Klipsch makes very heavey ported Speakers that reproduce the entire audible sound spectrum flawlessly making them reference speakers. Lesser Speakers bellow imperceptibly except to "trained" ears. Trained ears? Trained ears happens when you listen to live performances of musical instruments. Learn how french horns are different from trombones. Violins from violas from cellos. Electric Bass from Upright Bass from Slap Bass. Get good enough you can tell the difference between Fender or Gibson Electric Guitars. Get really good and you will notice a Richenbacker Bass or Electric (Tom Petty 12 string?),Guild, Tayor Acoustic s. Then buy your equipment and pick up amplified stuff because it needs to be heavy! Claims of 1000 watts need to weigh 35 pounds. Sure my 200 watt (Ratio Means Square) amplifier 1Hz to 250kHz able to peak at 293 Watts weights under 10 pounds but it has a lot of elecronics squeezed into it's 10 inch square enclosure. RMS has to do with the square waves on an oscilloscope. You might have seen frequencies showing as up and down waves? 20Hz is a longer "hill and valley" than a 20,000Hz high frequency very tight "hills and valleys". Electronics such as tubes are believed to be better able to produce low frequency is because the wav is more square than traditional transistors which result in a more rounded wave. Then MOSfet's were invented. Metal Oxide Silicone feild effect transistors. Able to make square waves plus provide thermo shutdown before they clip, before they fry speakers. The ability to power a nail without destruction to a stereo while other equipment shorts out or destroys speakers is a plus. MOSfet's gave us very cheaply the ability to hear what tube enthusiast act like only they possess; a low frequency square wave... Amen

Cradeldorf you are right on. I listened for hours to FM until about 1975 when the music died and FM Stereo Music became late night rerun music. Public radio filled a niche while Classical remained true to this day. PBS play an hour or two of real Blues old and new on Sunday afternoon but what happened to Jazz? It split into Soft Jazz and Jazz and lost me. Now in the Detroit area we have no Miles Davis or whoever those Soft ones are. Then at 5am Monday I was driving the little one to have surgery and to please her we listened to FM. I still have preset music set to the stations I listened to in the 60's. Right from the first song we listened we were guessing the artists famous ones that we did not hear in years no commercials one song after another very listenable tunes. We did not change the station. We found the genres changed which fits my extremely varied taste all very listenable. Why did it take almost 38 years? Finally no commercials no hype. I believe someone with deep pockets now owns this pearl but I fear it will be like always build up a fan base go commercial. Oh Well... I had a neighbor I used to make high quality CD's, about 78 songs (might give you ideas?) for his week at work. After the third week he asked "what is the theme?". "I am listening but the music goes over here over there"? I asked him if he didn't like the songs and he said it is all great but what made you include Britney Spears? I said you don't like the tune? He liked it but after listening to the Band then Britney then Sly and the Family Stone he wanted to know if I was "going somewhere with it?" So I asked "you didn't like that Britney tune"? He said it is great. I said that is my theme it is all great music... I have a lifelong friend an educated Sound Man that sat in a few times for Mac Arnold who plays a cigar box guitar. Mac played bass once in studio for Muddy Waters and Buddy Guy for instance. This friend sends URL's on Facebook to hidden pearls. Many of my friends are musicians some are studio musicians and a few are unknown original artists. So my take on this thread? It is original, just Tuesday the mentioned friend sent a original just like this but three ladies in dresses taking turns each performing a chorus all sounding great on their own and I wondered "How would they sound in harmony"? Then realized my question is much like my neighbors. I have an answer and it is; "It's all good"!

What does caveat mean?

rayok275 automatics will sound terrible through quality speakers I highly recommend belt driven tables. Electronics cause hum. Direct Drive motors cause rumble and hum which is squelched by the other electronics trying to mask the noise. You need to listen to music or is it just background or elevator music you appreciate? Listen once to a $75,000 system then with that experience really shop. I researched in the 1980's when their was no internet, heck what was a CD? Look for vintage turntables & equipment built right around 1980 and look for very low prices, a few dings some people think is junk. I am well able to drive over 300 watts per channel into the woofers but when the volume is set at 1 watt (about half volume) the frequency response is 1Hz to 250 kHz +0 -3 decibels. Normal listening 20Hz to 20kHz +0 -3 decibels the total distortion into my woofs is .05 with crossover between channels distortion more than 100dBs the Damping Factor well over 150. The amplifier I am using to drive the midrange/tweeters spits out 250 watts RMS 20Hz to 20kHz at a flat -0 to +0, total distortion is less than .0005 and crossover between channels distortion well above 150dBs the Damping Factor well over 50. Together both amplifiers cost a total of $337, $137 for the "new" one I bought a month ago $200 for the other that I built over four days taking my time back in 1980. One amp by itself sounds fantastic but the two working their specialties did the trick! Learn the specifications they will save you from mistakes. Turntables it is rumble & hum devastating; a turntable caused by cheap motors directly driving their noise into your preamp. Your preamp cuts the "edge" off of the sound and you are stuck with no stage, singers you do not understand etc. I listen to so much that over the last month I am learning new lyrics to songs I thought I had down pat... So to make music I chose the amplifier with the highest damping factor to drive my woofers. Many amplifiers lack sufficient damping factor or slew rate. A well damped woofer is one that responds "instantly" to the signal to push air out then pull air in. Low damped bass becomes muddy you mostly hear just the wump or the thump. Good slew rate forces wumps and thumps to occur instantaneously. The bass is very well defined and which sounds very natural. You want to know bad bass? Listen to a car with a thumper in it. Tweeters and Midrange speakers make up most of the sound we hear. So we need the most heard frequencies to have no audible hiss and no clipping. The sound is natural and most importantly power without distortion, hissing, humming, rattling and moosh when it needs to whoosh. Great stuff happens when your equipment creates the correctly placed sound stage. With enough power and amplifier control you can isolate and hear every instrument in its place. Listen to Classical Orchestras and you will understand when you can hear 112 instruments with the violins in their sections, the cellos in theirs, French Horns over here, Trombones over there. flutes airy and light importantly located up front. All instruments in their groups. Percussion spot on, triangles with their proper twinkle, piano where it belongs, cymbals glimmer. Inexpensive very high quality equipment has my pair of R-28F's sounding like the speakers are not there just like they been replaced by individual instruments I just have to close my eyes...

Will add that phonographs to me sound better without anything other than Table,Tonearm, Cartridge, all separates. My setup? Everything is separate. A friend paid $1200 for Direct Drive turntable (alone) and having the two phono inputs we made easy comparison between his expensive mine "cheaper" he was so sad after about two hours of listening to all varieties of music. Back in the very early 80's you can buy serious equipment for the savings. Belt Drive isolates so much garbage off the top also another tip have your turntable isolated from the speakers rattles and bumps. Them cartridges are so sensitive pick up everything!! My advice look for vintage equipment stuff was built great old does not relate. My Hafler, Rega, Carver.... well everything I bought over 35 years is built indestructible and the music it reproduces through my pair of R-28F's? Wish I could live another 35 years! My setup? 1980 Rega Planar 3 Belt Drive Turntable (thick glass platter beautiful) 1980 Grace G-707II QUADMASTER Stereo Tone Arm 1980 Ortofon 541 MC (High Powered Moving Coil priced the same as my turntable bought it on discount $150) {replaced a still working 1980 Grado 7-1+ Quadraphonic Cartridge} 1989 Preamp David Hafler DH-200 with built in phono amp 1980 Preamp David Hafler DH-100 (kit I built using silver solder) with two built in phono amps (one can be wired for Moving Coil Cartridges) {not in use right now} bought 2015 ($137) built 1980 ($800) Bob Carver M-400 Amp (driving Bass) 1980 David Hafler DH-200 Amp (driving Tweeters/Midrange) (kit I built using silver solder) 1983 Nakamichi 581 Discrete Cassette Player/Recorder 1983 NAD AM & FM Stereo 4020A Tuner 2008 Sony BRD-S560 (Blu Ray but I am using it for CD mostly) 2015 Klipsch R-28F's for two speaker setup in 12' x 13' room

Denon looks to be priced excellently? Full Features and Specs I recommend The Needle Doctors business! /www.needledoctor.com/Denon-DP300-with-2M-Red-Package

Never liked the much overpriced Paramount equipment. Looks pretty but I close my eyes a lot when in listening mode. Look on eBay under Vintage stuff and keep your Bids to the end. I purchased a 1980 $800 A/B Solid State for $138 total. Toss a switch and your 200 watt RMS with a dynamic range that hits over 293 watts per channel will drive 500 watts RMS, dynamic range over 800 watts, RMS one channel genuine use a Y and it becomes a monoblock. My other amp I built cost $200 in 1980 held its price. 100 watts RMS with the 2.5 dynamic range it puts out a tad over 200 watts RMS THD .0005 no other amp sounds this clean or built as rugged that it can drive 15 ampere's into a 8 penny nail short circuit (across left and right channels). Wire it into a 1000 Bridged monoblock? Two amplifiers @ 1000 watts RMS per channel spend under $600? This is what I have: 100 watts RMS per channel into 8 ohms, Dynamic Range 2.5 (over 250 watts per channel RMS @ clipping) Damping Factor conservative 50, THD .0005, Intermodulation Distortion Unmeasureable SMPTE S/N Greater than 150dBs down IHF A weighted, 20 to 20,000 +/- 0 (crossover cuts off those lows) into tweets & mids. I am driving 201 watts per channel into 8 ohms (Dynamic Range 1.9 rated 250 watts at clipping) Damping Factor >150 (Slew factor really >200!) THD .05 Intermodulation Distortion.05 SMPTE S/N Greater than 100dBs down IHF A weighted, 1Hz - 250kHz @ 1 watt +0 -3 dB driving my woofers. My pair of R-28F's driven by amps that cost $337 total driving conservative 500 watts then include the preamplifier which compliments the mid/tweet amplifier (unmeasureable Distortion) brings the cost to $537 a lot less than my Rega Planar 3's worth of $1700(!). Look for real bargains? I didn't say my system sounds perfect? CRISP...

Rotten I am the same. I am back after about 15 years of no speakers My equipment is antique. Hafler Pre-amp Hafler Amp + Carver Amp Bi amped but also Bi wired. The Hafler is very conservative rated Damping Factor of 50 while the Carver is conservatively rated Damping Factor @150. The damping factor is a clue. I have the Hafler driving a conservative 100 watts per channel into the top connections and the Carver driving a conservative 200 watts per channel into the bottom connectors. What I really have is the Hafler driving tweets and mid with 200 watts per channel and the Carver 285 watts per channel. Using all of this in a 12' x 13' room all walls "live" (no carpet minimum furniture). I bring up Damping Factor because simply what that is amounts to the ability to return the woofers to what they are shut off. So the woofs with a high Damping Factor pushes the sound then pulls back very rapidly. A 30 Hz wave needs 30 feet to unfold so some speakers are configured with a folded horn design. Over the years these have been replaced with ports etc. What I see as your problem is one or two of three things things. Your room size, your setup or your equipment. My Hafler amp weights 23 pounds minimal electronics while the Carver weights like 10 pounds (feels like 2lbs) and is a stuff box. Both Bob Carver and David Hafler had opposing thoughts but both are right? Onkyo stuffs their boxes. I firmly believe in 2 speaker systems. If you could hear my system then consider I bought the Carver for $137 and the Hafler I built $200 you'd scratch you head. Close your eyes and you are transported by the highs the lows and everything in between right where they belong. Sax to French horns woohoo!! Bass give the Temptations a listen. Guitar Eric Clapton. Drums use Ringo Starr. Flugelhorn? Listen to Chuck Manglone. If you need real music listen to Dave Brubeck playing Take Five https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHdU5sHigYQ