hwatkins

Yep - read the online manual and there is a an enable/disable switch. My question may be more specific now (which I think was answered). The Denon bass management (I have tried reading the Denon manual a few hundred times) then sends all bass, whether music or programed DD/DTS, relative to designated crossover. In my current setup, the sub has little action in music and leaves a very weak bass on most music (and boomy in HT - kind of the worst of both worlds). I can't get a good tweak for both and end up in a compromise. The Heresy are, of course, a little weak in the low end - thus the good sub quest. Thanks again to all that have helped. Please correct any inaccuracies in my thinking. ------------------ Hwatkins

In anticipation of new sub I am looking at setup. Particularly how to keep it good for music and good for HT. The primary players are Denon 3802 and Heresy main and side. My first thoughts - set my speakers to small and set sub frequency crossover high (more precisely - somewhere that best matches roll off for the Heresy) - As i read this, the LFE crossover in the Denon will manage the DD/DTS stuff and the 'right' crossover on the sub will be where I tune for music. I would SPL set the room then manage the music cross over. If Heresy woofer is good to 50hz, but set to small there is only 80hz and above sent to it (correct?). So crossover should possibly be something a little higher than 80HZ? See how easily I confuse myself... Two questions - 1. What are the flaws in my initial approach? 2. If correct (or near correct) what have SVS and Heresy owners set the sub crossover to for music? ------------------ Hwatkins

Echo Lynnm response. When I went on a Heresy quest I recall there being zero difference on drivers and crossovers for those years (I have a pair made in, and bought in, 1980). Search the board - you will find somewhere that list the changes by year for Heresy. I used that in acquiring my next two pair. ------------------ Hwatkins

Thanks to all for their input - I just ordered the 20-39PCi. The WAF was traded for a couple of grand for new pool side furniture (I know, sounds like I came up on the short end but trust me it really is a win-win). I'll give full impressions after a few weeks of listening. Expect honesty with limited technical jargon. Cheers and thanks again. ------------------ Hwatkins

Same here, and I probably have more to learn to get my project going. ------------------ Hwatkins

theEAR- Hit the nail on the head - both from a Specs perspective and user reviews, I am convinced - Cubes from HSU or tubes from SVS in my price range. This is heavily weighted on user/comparative reviews (including the highly disclaimed tube reviews on the HSUReseach site). We'll just have to see. Zeke- Let us know how your Klipsch's and HSU subs sound together. Should make for interesting reading. Foresthump- Glad you could throw in your two cents on my parting attempt at humor. As usual you went straight for the more meaningful part of the message. To all- regardless of the degredation that this subject seems to fall into, it is important to some of us to gleam meaningful information. We are in the market to purchase and are looking to experienced opinions. I have pulled that meaningful info and formed my options. I am out of this thread and ya'll should let it rest as well - ------------------ Hwatkins

Ok Friends - this is too much like Klipsch converations - we know their faults, but we love them anyway. Not just to be different, but because the klipsch speakers have an 'identity' that we like. Their strengths match our desires. Their weaknesses are of little consequence. I think that is the same with HSU and SVS. Just like Klipsch, both company's souls are in their founders, their sound is a personal thing. Both HSU and SVS remind me of my college days in Arkansas, and knowing that getting some of PWK's stuff you were getting a piece of his soul - something that sounded so very good to him and his hoping that it had a broader appeal. There is no mistaking that personal touch - therefore (especially with all the highly emotional Kudos for each) I am convinced that either HSU or SVS will be a work of art. Further, I will have to see which one touches my soul. Enough of a liberal flashback - we now return to our regularly scheduled Republican love fest (Thank God for Ashcroft covering that sculpted female genitilia at the Justice Dept. Does that mean he would have to come out covered by a sheet since he is such a big Pr**K?). ------------------ Hwatkins

Malcolm - Thanks for your experienced info, it is very helpful. I will shop 8" first - can always change back. Any deadline set for your project? Dave - I want the Birds to stay downtown. The ballpark experience is so much more than luxury boxes. When teams are mediocre - attendence always drops at the suburban parks - they just aren't centrally located. Keep them downtown... I know we had talked about an extra Heresy If I ended up with one - as you can see from the thread I have the extra pair downstairs - Did you end up with an extra that you would like to sell? - Otherwise I may have to break the happy couple up. I would vote for upside down - try it and let me know. Henry ------------------ Hwatkins

Great advice as always. Confirmed my position - If cube it will be HSU, If Tube it will be SVS. Second reply from the good Doctor focused on VtF-3. I will make call in next three weeks, wait for delivery and hopefully give a glowing result review regardless of my choice. Thanks to all for input. ------------------ Hwatkins

Same here on the Heresy - main and sides right now. Have another set that I have been experimenting with. They are overkill for rear, so they are main stereo downstairs with HK unit. Yeah, could be the room, but with one Heresy on its side there was some very noticable 'gaps', for lack of a better term, especially in some dialogue and center focused sounds (dropouts may be a better term). This was also before I started using an SPL meter. Did not happen with two as center, and that may be my final configuration, but I am sure I will have to do some putzing with frequency manipulation. And there is the fact that I will have to modify the beautiful cabinet wall (a less than happy marital issue - I barely survived the 'conversations' I had to put the side Heresys in the ceiling, which I must say turned into a work of art). In your thoughts - were you looking at an Academy style box for your center? I have figured I would have to build my own, and was contemplating a couple of smaller (than 10") woofers - you raise an interesting delimma on the crossovers. Any thoughts about what timbre match problems I would run across trying for some good 8 inchers? I will solve a poor subwoofer issue within the month. ------------------ Hwatkins

This link may be to the most outrageous subwoofer horn todate: http://www.royaldevice.com/custom3.htm The good part is that if you do install this, the significant other can't complain about the looks!!! THEars- And you thught you went overboard for deep low, loud sounds.... ------------------ Hwatkins

My sincerest apologies for addressing an older subject, but memory serves that someone here has modified the Heresy for a more pleasing and less space constrained center. I have tried a single Heresy - since it was on its side there was a significant imaging (I think that is the term) issue and specifically not pleasing. Two Heresy on side with horns to the middle was much better, but was in need of some sort of EQing (quite overpowering in sound that sometimes lost L & R distinction). What has crossed my mind is putting a new box around at least the tweeter and Sqwuaker with the proper orientation (like a vertical Heresy), but challenged by what to do for the lower frequencies in the center channel. I am sure this is a little off the wall, but if it wasn't for over-thinking, what joy would I have? Besides, why would I let others confuse me when I am perfectly capable of doing so myself.... ------------------ Hwatkins

Ok folks, some may remember I am torn on the sub quest. The issue is WAF - preference is a cube - and HAF (Husband) hearing the virtues of towers. Comments on the HSU cubes please vs. Klipsch and comparable price points. Dr. Hsu recommends a tower for my setup and budget - originally in the $800 range. I will finally make my move on this w/in a few weeks. Thanks in advance and I will post my thoughts when in place and SPL'd. Will be either a HSU, Klipsch or SVS. ------------------ Hwatkins

I am terrible understanding terms so I'll go to plain speak for my two cents..... Horns in the Klipsch I have owned and have heard (comparing to MLs, etc.) are very good at moving quickly with different sounds - this means there is no effort from the listener in identification of an instument's impact during heavy orchestration. This is simply not as good on all non-horn systems I have auditioned. All others make me 'think' before I can be that discerning. If this is soundstage - then these babies are darn good. Now, what I have noticed is that with the other speakers, if you close your eyes and position yourself at various places in a room it is definitely harder to discern where the speakers are placed. On horns, especially as you move forward toward the middle of where the speakers are, you will start to hear each speaker independently. If that is imaging, then the other high end speakers win on the 'ease' of placement selection. HOWEVER, the horns positioning can have a dramatic advantage in directing sound that best fits the acoustics of the room. That is exactly how I have fixed my HT and Music - It would not have been possible without that discrete directionalizing (great word, huh?) That's as much as this slower learner can impart today... ------------------ Hwatkins

I am attaching my response from the referenced thread. I spent quite some time to validate that the hiss in the 3802 was of no consequence for my listening. This was looked at with Heresy's as mains and sides: >>>Well - I tried some of the same stuff as you described with my 3802 and found the following (my apologies to anyone who may have read a much earlier report from me that there was no hiss): >>>1. In my set up - the hiss is clearly there in all the DPL II, DTS, DD and DSP settings. In all of these the hiss becomes evident (no source and listening very closely) around -2db. Only clearly hisses around 0db. This is way loud and is an OK thing for me right now. I am at 75db around -12db. >>2. In stereo (and less so in 5/7 channel stereo) it can get to nothing in all but CD, where a slight hiss appears at 10db. In my setup - I only can go to 16db in stereo and 9db in most dsp. >>It only ccurs in very loud volume levels that I will not be using.>>>>> As I said - this happens at way too loud a volume for me to notice, and yes I have seen it on many excellent quality recievers. ------------------ Hwatkins

Well - I tried some of the same stuff as you described with my 3802 and found the following (my apologies to anyone who may have read a much earlier report from me that there was no hiss): 1. In my set up - the hiss is clearly there in all the DPL II, DTS, DD and DSP settings. In all of these the hiss becomes evident (no source and listening very closely) around -2db. Only clearly hisses around 0db. This is way loud and is an OK thing for me right now. I am at 75db around -12db. 2. In stereo (and less so in 5/7 channel stereo) it can get to nothing in all but CD, where a slight hiss appears at 10db. In my setup - I only can go to 16db in stereo and 9db in most dsp. It only ccurs in very loud volume levels that I will not be using. If my look at this as the norm, then you may well have some sort of reciever problem. Hope this helps. ------------------ Hwatkins

The following address is a thread at AVS where an early user reviews VTF-3. Very nicely done and compared to SVS. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=135098 Enjoy ------------------ Hwatkins

Excellent description of what I hear. In helping prove to my brother why he should get Klipshhorns some time ago, we auditioned quite a few high end speakers (my next home will have room for the big boys - several heresy have to do for now). It came down to Revel (he loved the specs) and Klipsch. I had a recording of various pieces by the St. Louis Symphony (we are blessed with a decent symphony here) that included some passages that were very well recorded and sounded very much like what I had heard live. I have always enjoyed live orchestra - where a single ting on the triangle is as crisp as a trumpet and an active part of the music. When we used this recording on each set of speakers we both could not put our finger specifically on why, but the Revel setup seemed soft - Oh, the triangle (for instance) was there alright, and clear. But it did not have the same sense or purpose that it did live. While my brother had not heard the live performance, he clearly liked the Klipshhorns because of this. Granted, he had to have the right space for the horns, but at retail the Klipschs were about 70 -75% the costs of the Revel. Seems like a great deal to me. Nothing here is to pan other speakers, but to note my preference and try to quantify. Thanks ------------------ Hwatkins

I will remember - I hope all take my previous ramble in the lighthearted spirit intended. I will probably start a thread, but more with the intent of getting new knowledge. It will hopefully done in a spirited, yet diplomatic way. ------------------ Hwatkins

Thanks for the start - It points me in a direction to look to learn some more. I am considering starting an argument there and want to be armed for the 'show me the facts not opinions' lads - you know the type. They prefer to rip every opinion to show their technical prowess - I call it engineering testosterone poisoning. They are egotistical, snobbish slugs that suffer from an overprotective childhood (that was just a practice jab ) Now, knowing that us right thinking Klipschers are not opinionated or egotistical (and I also have a bridge for sale) I am preparing for the conversation direction - direct radiating speakers ( as horns have to be) are ALWAYS (those folks do love to shout) a bad choice (unless you plan on broadcasting from low space orbit to the northern hemisphere). My thoughts here are that direct radiation is the absolute (must always use strong, definitive postitioning words like absolute, infallable, etc.) best solution since you can then really execute tuning parameters with speaker placement. Seems to me you get best 360 degree fill with appropriately placed direct radiating speakers (other than that dreaded directionless bass). The fact that it may take hundreds of speakers would never show up in my argument. Why would I want 360 degree fill if to do so is a variation of Dr. Bose's thinking - ambiance is far more beneficial than accurate interpretation of intent? I have the horns set and tuned (without an equalizer - yet) and they provide a much more pleasing fill than any previous non-horn attempt. I will stay with my non technical pleasure. The serious side is that this type of discussion should help me learn enough to continue to refine my stuff. Everytime I get some refinement in knowledge I tend to improve the setup. ------------------ Hwatkins

I really don't have the tech knowledge here, and having listened to far too many high end speakers over the years to change my opinion about good horns (heritage stuff makes me smile most), I would like to learn. The comment was that Klipsch does not have anything near 'flat response' like Revel, Martin Login and other dropped names. Is anyone here willing to help me learn what was meant by the comment? ------------------ Hwatkins

I believe I have said here before that I am changing to a multichannel stero fan after 25+ years of two channel purity. I use Denon 3802 w/7 channel stereo. There are Heresy in all four corners (so to speak - rears are more like sides). I have found that after using an SPL meter to get the levels good, that I get the best results by adjusting the center and two rear speakers to -12db. This in effect nearly silences their impact. I am impressed with the imaging and depth that takes place without changing (to my ear)the quality compared to two channel. My opinion. ------------------ Hwatkins

You should be able to get Denon 3802 for $850 or a little less if you forego the authorized dealer/warranty route. I have seen deals in that range from authorized dealers, but it will require quite a bit of shopping. Otherwise look to spend right at a grand. I vote positively for the 3802 - have run it through the paces here at home and efficient speakers allow it to keep pace, even if you have the mains and sides set to large and loud enough to really irritate the pets. Folks have complained about a Denon 'hiss' that I cannot get without outrageous volume settings - they call me lucky. ------------------ Hwatkins

I cannot produce the 'hiss' that folks mention on the Denon 3802 in earlier threads. The configuration is (for the moment) Heresy mains and surround, Infinity sub (replacing soon) and rears with Acoustic Research center (becoming more and more a favorite). I can get a hiss (shows up first on the center) when I push the volume to insane levels without an active source (for instance - Amp set to CD with no CD playing). If I truely was playing a source I would need to be a quarter of a mile away for health reasons. I definitely do not get the 'clicking' noise mentioned when adjusting volume. Am I lucky or just missing something here? ------------------ Hwatkins

Congratulations on the Sony irritation!! I really do like my 3802 and give it a thumbs up. The problem is that I haven't tried all others. I did audition Onkyo and Yamaha and prefered the music with Denon with Yamaha a close second (what's the old line - If your music sounds great so will your HT?). S-video switching was good on all I looked at. I have heard way too many good things about Outlaw to discount them, just couldn't audition without purchasing. A video switch is pretty cheap if that is a problem there. I'd be surprised if you don't get innundated with SVS recommendations on the sub. ------------------ Hwatkins