Vivek Batra
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Posts posted by Vivek Batra
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10 hours ago, robert_kc said:
Hello Vivek,
FWIW, I think that you're taking a very sensible approach. Following are a few of my quick thoughts.
I have no experience with “network streamers”. I have Chromecast Audio ($35US) gizmos installed in several of my hi-fi systems, and I use them for the rare occasions when I want to listen to internet radio (e.g., kusc.org, which is an excellent commercial-free classical radio station). I tried Spotify Premium and Tidal for a while, and found that I rarely used them, so I cancelled. I can control Chromecast Audio via an Android tablet (e.g., Tunein radio app, apps for Spotify and Tidal, Hi-Fi Cast, etc.). I can also cast from a Chrome browser on my Windows 10 PC. As you described, the apps function as a remote control only – the audio stream does not “hairpin” through the tablet or PC.I wouldn’t assume that an external DAC is necessarily better - unless you want to have “DAC rolling” as a hobby (i.e., experimenting with different DACs). (My Oppo UDP-205 universal player has two ESS Technology ES9038PRO DACs built in. These are state-of-the-art DACs. No one has been able to explain why using an external DAC would be better. In fact, there are limitations to TOSLINK and coax interfaces (e.g., playing the SACD layer of a hybrid SACD, and playing uncompromised (i.e., not downgraded) DTS HD MA audio). The Oppo’s internal DACs can handle more “hi-res” formats than most external DACs – and these hi-res formats are important to me based on the music I enjoy.) My limited understanding is that most network streamers have a DAC built in, and often these appliances allow their DAC to be used by other sources. Based on your needs, is an external DAC beneficial – or not?
And I wouldn’t assume that having a separate preamp and power amp is necessarily better. Because Klipsch speakers don’t need a lot of power, a separate power amp isn’t necessarily beneficial, vs. an integrated amp. (OTOH, separates give you more flexibility for future upgrades.) As I said before, I suggest that you get an amplifier with tone controls.
Moreover, you may not need a pre-amp at all, if you acquire a network streamer with remote volume control - and if you don’t want tone controls. (I can connect 1950s era McIntosh MC30 tube power amps directly to an Oppo UDP-205, and as long as I don’t need to adjust the tonal balance via tone controls, it works great. I use the UDP-205’s remote volume control. OTOH, I find KT88s to be too bright sounding with Klipsch speakers, so I’ll always use a pre-amp with tone controls when I use a KT88 amp such as my McIntosh MC275 or Scott LK150.)
If you buy a disc player that only plays CDs, you will limit your options for the types of discs you can play to one choice: the 30+ year-old CD. OTOH, if you buy a “universal player” (e.g., Sony UBP-X1100ES), then you will have the flexibility to play all types of discs (i.e., CD, SACD, Blu-ray, Pure Audio Blu-ray, Ultra HD Blu-ray, DVD, DVD-Audio, etc.).
Are there any Blu-ray or DVD concert videos you’re interested in? https://concertsondvd.com/collections/blueray-concerts Any SACDs? Are there any DVD-Audio discs you’re interested in? (Even though DVD and DVD-Audio are older formats, some recordings are only available in these formats.) For the classical music I like, Blu-ray audio/video is by far my favorite way to enjoy music. (For example, there are 4 different modern Blu-ray box sets of all Beethoven symphonies, featuring excellent video and DTS HD MA audio. And many other classical concerts are available on Blu-ray, plus many opera and ballet Blu-ray recordings.) What about Hollywood and Bollywood movies? To me, there is no difference between a “hi-fi” system and a “home theater” system.
For streaming, some people think MQA is the “cat’s pajamas” – whereas others think it’s “snake oil”. My dog’s not in that fight.
I believe that the $64k question is this: For the music (and movies) that you like, which formats are relevant? I suggest that you investigate for the music genres you like what recordings are available on Blu-ray, Pure Audio Blu-ray, Ultra HD Blu-ray, SACD, DVD, DVD-Audio, hi-res downloads (e.g., HD Tracks) – in addition to CDs and streaming. I suggest that you buy appliance(s) that play the music (and movies) that you like, and I suggest that try to keep your options open for the future.
There is a bewildering array of options for bundling vs. unbundling hi-fi components. For example, Marantz claims that their “Marantz ND8006 is the complete digital music source player that delivers world-class sound from unlimited music sources, including online streaming services, HEOS multi-room technology, locally stored high-resolution audio files, CD audio playback, Apple AirPlay, Bluetooth and more.” Does it play SACDs (i.e., the SACD layer of a hybrid SACD, not the CD layer)? Does it play Pure Audio Blu-ray discs? Blu-ray audio/video discs? Ultra HD Blu-ray? For the music I like, this unit is most definitely NOT capable of playing all relevant formats. Same question for Bluesound products. OTOH, for the music you like, perhaps the capabilities provided by one of these products might be adequate.
I’ll be interested in reading about what you learn, and what you decide.
Please keep us posted. And post some pics of the Forte III once installed. 😊
Good luck.
For your interest these are my playlists on Spotify to give you an idea of kinda music I like
Give it a try sometime
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11 hours ago, dtel said:
For 2 ch, MWM/402horn, the Pioneer as a preamp, EV dx38 as a active crossover and 2 50wpc Emotiva A100 amps, and a Klipsch 1502 which is similar to an 1802 sub with a Crown 1002 amp bridged for a sub.
Sony 4k BD player that streams also.
For the most part you will not find the 2 ch speakers or sub on Klipsch's website, if so it will be under the pro stuff. Also some Cornwall lll's, Forte 2 and 3 and some Heresy 1 and 2.
The Forte's are for HT, the Cornwalls are in a bedroom, one set of Heresies in the bar and one in another bedroom.
Hi @dtel
Thanks for sharing this.
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10 hours ago, robert_kc said:
Hello Vivek,
FWIW, I think that you're taking a very sensible approach. Following are a few of my quick thoughts.
I have no experience with “network streamers”. I have Chromecast Audio ($35US) gizmos installed in several of my hi-fi systems, and I use them for the rare occasions when I want to listen to internet radio (e.g., kusc.org, which is an excellent commercial-free classical radio station). I tried Spotify Premium and Tidal for a while, and found that I rarely used them, so I cancelled. I can control Chromecast Audio via an Android tablet (e.g., Tunein radio app, apps for Spotify and Tidal, Hi-Fi Cast, etc.). I can also cast from a Chrome browser on my Windows 10 PC. As you described, the apps function as a remote control only – the audio stream does not “hairpin” through the tablet or PC.I wouldn’t assume that an external DAC is necessarily better - unless you want to have “DAC rolling” as a hobby (i.e., experimenting with different DACs). (My Oppo UDP-205 universal player has two ESS Technology ES9038PRO DACs built in. These are state-of-the-art DACs. No one has been able to explain why using an external DAC would be better. In fact, there are limitations to TOSLINK and coax interfaces (e.g., playing the SACD layer of a hybrid SACD, and playing uncompromised (i.e., not downgraded) DTS HD MA audio). The Oppo’s internal DACs can handle more “hi-res” formats than most external DACs – and these hi-res formats are important to me based on the music I enjoy.) My limited understanding is that most network streamers have a DAC built in, and often these appliances allow their DAC to be used by other sources. Based on your needs, is an external DAC beneficial – or not?
And I wouldn’t assume that having a separate preamp and power amp is necessarily better. Because Klipsch speakers don’t need a lot of power, a separate power amp isn’t necessarily beneficial, vs. an integrated amp. (OTOH, separates give you more flexibility for future upgrades.) As I said before, I suggest that you get an amplifier with tone controls.
Moreover, you may not need a pre-amp at all, if you acquire a network streamer with remote volume control - and if you don’t want tone controls. (I can connect 1950s era McIntosh MC30 tube power amps directly to an Oppo UDP-205, and as long as I don’t need to adjust the tonal balance via tone controls, it works great. I use the UDP-205’s remote volume control. OTOH, I find KT88s to be too bright sounding with Klipsch speakers, so I’ll always use a pre-amp with tone controls when I use a KT88 amp such as my McIntosh MC275 or Scott LK150.)
If you buy a disc player that only plays CDs, you will limit your options for the types of discs you can play to one choice: the 30+ year-old CD. OTOH, if you buy a “universal player” (e.g., Sony UBP-X1100ES), then you will have the flexibility to play all types of discs (i.e., CD, SACD, Blu-ray, Pure Audio Blu-ray, Ultra HD Blu-ray, DVD, DVD-Audio, etc.).
Are there any Blu-ray or DVD concert videos you’re interested in? https://concertsondvd.com/collections/blueray-concerts Any SACDs? Are there any DVD-Audio discs you’re interested in? (Even though DVD and DVD-Audio are older formats, some recordings are only available in these formats.) For the classical music I like, Blu-ray audio/video is by far my favorite way to enjoy music. (For example, there are 4 different modern Blu-ray box sets of all Beethoven symphonies, featuring excellent video and DTS HD MA audio. And many other classical concerts are available on Blu-ray, plus many opera and ballet Blu-ray recordings.) What about Hollywood and Bollywood movies? To me, there is no difference between a “hi-fi” system and a “home theater” system.
For streaming, some people think MQA is the “cat’s pajamas” – whereas others think it’s “snake oil”. My dog’s not in that fight.
I believe that the $64k question is this: For the music (and movies) that you like, which formats are relevant? I suggest that you investigate for the music genres you like what recordings are available on Blu-ray, Pure Audio Blu-ray, Ultra HD Blu-ray, SACD, DVD, DVD-Audio, hi-res downloads (e.g., HD Tracks) – in addition to CDs and streaming. I suggest that you buy appliance(s) that play the music (and movies) that you like, and I suggest that try to keep your options open for the future.
There is a bewildering array of options for bundling vs. unbundling hi-fi components. For example, Marantz claims that their “Marantz ND8006 is the complete digital music source player that delivers world-class sound from unlimited music sources, including online streaming services, HEOS multi-room technology, locally stored high-resolution audio files, CD audio playback, Apple AirPlay, Bluetooth and more.” Does it play SACDs (i.e., the SACD layer of a hybrid SACD, not the CD layer)? Does it play Pure Audio Blu-ray discs? Blu-ray audio/video discs? Ultra HD Blu-ray? For the music I like, this unit is most definitely NOT capable of playing all relevant formats. Same question for Bluesound products. OTOH, for the music you like, perhaps the capabilities provided by one of these products might be adequate.
I’ll be interested in reading about what you learn, and what you decide.
Please keep us posted. And post some pics of the Forte III once installed. 😊
Good luck.
Hi @robert_kc
I am getting a lot of information from you thanks for sharing your views. Well I would agree that a universal player makes more sense than just a CD/SACD player. I would search for a universal player but I would prefer a universal player without a internal dac. Reason being If I find a network player and that too without internal dac, I would be having a common sound signature from Universal player/ Network Streamer/ Laptop or whatever other digital source. Another point is digital formats may change in future and it would be easy to replace the dac as well. These are my thoughts for external dac and why would I favor an external dac over an internal one.
No doubt, FLACs/CD/LP are hands down better than streaming, but I am bit lazy to and also at times I feel like playing a track that I have not heard in few years then the streaming is quick option. Also I am a fan of FM tuner. Would be great if a network stream I could find has a FM tuner as well (may be not).
About separates, I do not have any experience my self. I can not defend why separate pre and power are better than integrated ones. The only reason known to me is the separation of circuits and separate power supplies should be better than the shared ones and of course flexibility to change components in future is easy.
The base of all this is my initial mistake of having everything in one box (AVR) but I realized seeking convenience of having just one component is a quality compromise. I know its hell lot of money for me to afford separates but I would start slowly now and as wisely as possible.
Definitely I would be getting the speakers first without amps so will post those pictures :-). Fortes sitting alone 😞
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19 hours ago, dtel said:
Not a Denon I use but a Pioneer Elite, and it does the same thing on pure direct, flat and awful, plus if you use a sub it does not send a signal to it.
What's your setup?
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9 hours ago, robert_kc said:
Hello Vivek,
Based on my understanding of your current methods for acquiring and playing recordings, perhaps the “low hanging fruit” in terms of upgrading the audio quality of your hi-fi system is the quality of your recordings.
Are you using Spotify or Spotify Premium?
If you are listening to Spotify, downloaded MP3, and music downloaded to your phone, you are not experiencing the best possible audio quality (unless you’re listening to really old recordings that will have poor quality regardless of bit rate and depth).
Additionally, Bluetooth connectivity may be limiting the quality of the audio. (I don’t know the limitations of the latest Bluetooth technology, or the version you’re using.)
The availability of high-resolution (“hi-res”) recordings depends on the genre of music – and when the music was originally recorded.
Is HDTracks.com available in India? If so, I suggest a simple, low-cost experiment if you haven’t already done so.
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Download a hi-res FLAC recording from HDTracks.com. Preferably something with higher bit rate than CD’s 16bit/44.1kHz, such as a recording in 24bit/192kHz or 24bit/96kHz. (However, even 16bit/44.1kHz will be better than compressed downloads such as MP3.) Ideally, the recording should be less than 10 years old. (An old recording will not be magically improved by converting its format to 24bit/192kHz.) I could recommend a classical recording, but I understand that might not be the music you like.
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After downloading the FLAC file to your PC, copy it to a USB memory stick or USB external hard drive.
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Eject the USB drive from your PC, and then plug the USB drive into your Denon AVR-X4500H. (This is sometimes referred to as “sneakerware” – i.e., a low-tech method of walking the files over to your hi-fi system. You could employ DLNA networking – but I suggest you keep things simple for this test.)
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Play the FLAC files via your Denon AVR-X4500H’s USB input.
- Please report back your assessment of the audio quality. If you realize a significant improvement in audio quality compared to your current method for acquiring and playing music, you know where to focus your efforts – i.e., better quality recordings, and better-quality playback methodology.
If this proof-of-concept test shows that downloaded hi-res files sound better to you, then consider the following two possible implementations for downloaded files going forward. (There are other solutions.)
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A USB hard drive (e.g. 2TB) is cheap, and can serve double-duty for PC backup. You can employ the “sneakerware” methodology to download hi-res music, and play it from the USB port of your Denon receiver. This methodology delivers top quality audio, is inexpensive, reliable, with no hassles associated with networking, and no potential compromises associated with Bluetooth.
- If you don’t want to have to carry a USB drive back and forth between your PC and Onkyo receiver each time you download a music file, you can use DLNA networking between your Onkyo receiver and music stored on your PC. (I would NOT use Bluetooth.)
Another option for top-quality audio is to use modern hi-res discs (e.g., Blu-ray, Ultra HD Blu-ray, Pure Audio Blu-ray, SACD), and the 30+ year-old CD. For the classical music that I love, the ability to play Blu-ray and SACD is extremely valuable – however I recognize that the music you like may not be available in these formats.
If you’re not interested in discs, then hi-res (or at least 16bit/44.1kHz) stereo downloads may be a good solution for you.
Of course, another option is to try a streaming service that claims to deliver higher-quality audio. (There is a heated debate about MQA.)
If you’re still dissatisfied with the sound quality when playing a hi-res file, perhaps try experimenting with the Denon’s graphic equalizer. From the Denon AVR-X4500H user manual:
- Adjust tonal balance for each frequency band.
- Select the speaker.
- Select the adjustment frequency band.
- 63 Hz / 125 Hz / 250 Hz / 500 Hz / 1 kHz / 2 kHz / 4 kHz / 8 kHz / 16 kHz
- Adjust the level.
- –20.0 dB – +6.0 dB (Default: 0.0 dB)
I’m not trying to dissuade you from getting new speakers. FWIW, based on the photos I’ve seen, I think the Forte III is a handsome speaker. What finish would you get?
Will you sell your existing RP-8000F? I know you said that you’re only interested in stereo, not multi-channel. However, if you can’t get a good price selling the RP-8000F, you might consider using one RP-8000F as a center channel, and the other as a single rear speaker, using the Forte III for the front left & right speakers. This of course assumes that the music you like is available in modern hi-res surround-sound (i.e., 5.0) recordings. Or, perhaps try some classical music. 🙂
If you buy Forte III, I suggest that you experiment with and without the Klipsch R-115SW subwoofer and decide which you like best.
Please keep us posted.
Robert
Dear @robert_kc
Many thanks that you are trying your best to help me out.
Some good news, last night a very nice gentleman bought my Denon x4500H. I was not using this to its full potential at least my new friend would be using it for the purpose its made for. So at the moment no more experiments until I buy something 🙂
Now coming to what you have suggested.
I use Spotify Premium account and I never use Bluetooth. I believe you must be aware of Spotify Connect? With Spotify connect you can directly stream the music on TV/Soundbar/AVR/Network stream etc. That works through LAN/Wifi. You need phone/ Laptop/Tablet just to kick start the streaming and your phone becomes a remote after that.
So no bluetooth in picture but the underlying device directly connects to internet and streams from Spotify using your premium account.
I tried to play the FLAC files via connecting my external hard drive to my laptop and then connected my laptop to AVR via HDMI. Its for sure better than streaming. But till date the best track I have played and enjoyed is from YouTube that sounded the best or Hotel California MTV unplugged version. But still hungry 🙂
Or some tracks from Spotify. I even tried to compare Spotify with CDs. As I do not have a dedicated CD player so used my laptop to play the CD and played the same track on Spotify. I feel that this comparison was not fair. I could not feel any difference may be the CD was crap.
My plan now is go for all separates starting from bare minimum equipment that I need to get going, but I plan to add a CD transport most likely over a CD player in near future. I am planning the following
1. Network Streamer
2. External DAC
3. Pre Amp
4. Power Amp
5. CD Player at some point of time
I'll be starting now to search about all the stuff. I know its difficult to decide on so many things in a one go and moreover I do not have the luxury to pair the new equipment with my speakers.
Now on Speakers, why I am swapping. Actually I found a quality issue with the cabinet of RP-8000F. The veneer is chipping off at some places and have asked my dealer to take it back in warranty and give me either the same pair or something else. The options are Polk/Dali/Klipsch only and I know I would pick Klipsch again. I tried to sell the RP-8000F but found no buyers. So taking this as an opportunity to upgrade the speakers as well.
I guess my immediate To Do item is to decide upon speakers and then finding the right amp for those.
Will keep you posted what I decided on speakers and then some more advice from you on electronics.
Thanks a lot.
Regards
Vivek
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Download a hi-res FLAC recording from HDTracks.com. Preferably something with higher bit rate than CD’s 16bit/44.1kHz, such as a recording in 24bit/192kHz or 24bit/96kHz. (However, even 16bit/44.1kHz will be better than compressed downloads such as MP3.) Ideally, the recording should be less than 10 years old. (An old recording will not be magically improved by converting its format to 24bit/192kHz.) I could recommend a classical recording, but I understand that might not be the music you like.
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3 hours ago, dtel said:
Not a Denon I use but a Pioneer Elite, and it does the same thing on pure direct, flat and awful, plus if you use a sub it does not send a signal to it.
That's right in Pure direct/ direct mode, no signal is sent to sub woofer. I guess that mode is meant for 2 channel only
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1 hour ago, glens said:
Impulsive worked very well for me. Not entirely true. I mulled it over for a good month.
I'll attach a PDF of a review from England(?) which usually escapes my ability to find on the WWW. I first found it after getting the speakers. In a sense it might have dissuaded me somewhat. There are some things they point out as negatives which I can "see" at times, but feel it's really a problem with specific recordings more than with the speakers.
To contrast that review there's the recent Stereophile writeup which I thought was quite favorable. Even if you have to read between the lines a bit to get the full implications.
forte_III-hifi_news_review.pdf 487.79 kB · 2 downloads
[Edit: I read through the attached review and noted straight away that they placed the speakers at least twice (maybe even thrice) as far from their back wall as I've found to work well. Also, they give no indication of what amplification they were using. If you look at the two c-net reviews you'll see they found the speakers "happier" with different amplifiers. I don't get to listen to any real variety of better equipment, certainly not what those reviewers do. Maybe my system could inherently sound better than it does? I don't know, but it sounds great enough to me to not bother finding out.]
Thanks @glens I will go through that pdf. Hope that will help me to decide.
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On 8/31/2019 at 10:34 PM, robert_kc said:
Hello Vivek Batra,
As I said earlier, I have no experience with the Forte, so I’m afraid that I cannot offer any advice about it.
You said that you don't like the sound of your RP -8000F. And you weren't enthused after listening to the RF-7III. FWIW, I think it would be foolish to buy a speaker that you know you don't like.
Do you ever travel to other cities where you might have the opportunity to audition the Forte III?
Have you listened to speakers that are not horn based? It is not my intent to dissuade you from Klipsch speakers – I’m a Klipsch fan. Klipsch’s high sensitivity rating affords much more flexibility in choosing an amp, because Klipsch speakers don’t require much power. And, Klipsch speakers generally are capable of significant dynamics, which is important for the large-scale classical music and opera that I love.
Do you have a preference for the appearance of the Forte III vs. RF-7III?
While I understand your reluctance to buy a speaker without auditioning it, if it were me, I’d “roll the dice” rather than buy a speaker that I’ve heard that I know that I don’t like. As you’ve pointed out, the Forte III is a fundamentally different design (e.g., 3 way vs. 2 way), and undoubtedly sounds different than the RF-7III.
If the Forte III appeals to you, I imagine that with the right amp you could achieve good sound quality. As I suggested earlier, I strongly encourage you to get an amp with tone controls.
There's another important topic that we haven't discussed: the source. Garbage-in/garbage-out – you can’t make a silk purse from a sow’s ear - you’ll never realize better audio quality than the quality of the recording and source component.
Music is deeply personal, and I respect the fact that different people like different music. For some music genres (e.g., classical music) there are modern recordings that employ newer audio recording technologies (e.g., 24bit/192kHz PCM or DSD) compared with decades-old recordings. And, for the classical music that I love, such modern recordings are available to the consumer via newer technologies (i.e., newer consumer deliverables) compared with the decades-old consumer deliverable known as Redbook CD (16 bit/44.1khz), or comparable bit-rate audio delivered via streaming.
If a recording was captured and mastered in 24bit/192kHz, it can be made available to the consumer at 24bit/192kHz (or 24bit/96kHz) via a download (e.g., FLAC download from HDTracks), or on a Blu-ray, Pure Audio Blu-ray, or Ultra HD Blu-ray disc. (Moreover, Blu-ray and Ultra HD Blu-ray feature other advances that are important to the music that I love, including surround-sound (i.e., 5.1), hi-def video (which is particularly important for visual art forms such as opera and ballet – but IMO also enjoyable for classical orchestral music), and display of an opera’s libretto (in one of several languages) on the HDTV screen.)
SACD is another hi-res multi-channel audio format (no video) that is very common for classical music.
Both Blu-ray and SACD discs provide a stereo audio track in addition to the surround-sound audio track, and therefore Blu-ray and SACD can have value even if you’re not interested in surround-sound. (FLAC downloads from HDTracks are stereo.)
Provenance of a recording is critical. Modern recordings that were captured and mastered in hi-res (i.e., 24bit/192kHz, or DSD) are capable of the best audio quality when delivered to the consumer in a hi-res format. (An old recording can’t be magically transformed by converting it to a different format, or encapsulating it in a different container (such as FLAC). A few top-quality vintage analog master tapes (e.g., some RCA Living Stereo) have been digitized and mastered in hi-res, and delivered on SACD, with fairly good results, but they pale in comparison with state-of-the-art modern recordings.)
Older recordings (including LPs) can deliver significant enjoyment, and are of course the only choice for historically significant performances - in all genres of music. (Classical music lovers sometimes must decide which is more important: performance quality (which might be a decades-old performance), or audio quality of a recording.) With that said, if you only listen to decades-old recordings, you are limited to what was state-of-the-art recording technology decades ago. And if you listen to relatively low bit rate digital music, you won’t realize the best possible audio quality. (A high-quality hi-fi system might make a low-quality recording’s shortcomings more apparent).
There are numerous web sites that catalog hi-res recordings. Here’s a few:https://www.hraudio.net/ lists some, but certainly not all hi-res recordings.
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical
https://www.nativedsd.com/
http://store.acousticsounds.com/superhirez
https://concertsondvd.com/collections/blueray-concerts
https://www.hdtracks.com/If you only want stereo (i.e., 2 channel), and you’re interested in a “universal player” with analog audio outputs (so that you can use a traditional hi-fi amp vs. an AVR that uses an HDMI connection), then I suggest that you research a universal player such as the Sony UBP-X1100ES: https://www.sony.com/electronics/blu-ray-disc-players/ubp-x1100es. (I have no experience with this Sony unit. I use Oppo universal players, but they are no longer manufactured.)
Bottom line, FWIW my advice:- Read as much as you can about the speakers you are considering
- Be patient. If you will be traveling to other cities where you can audition the Forte III, it may be prudent to wait
- Get an amp with tone controls
- Consider state-of-the-art recordings, and consider a compatible appliance that can play hi-res recordings
- Once installed, fine-tune the sound quality of your system via tone controls, speaker placement, and basic room treatments such as rugs and draperies
I hope this helps.
Please keep us posted.
Hi @robert_kc
I will try to reply to all the points you have mentioned. You said about travelling, Since Klipsch is a very expensive brand in India as compared to other similar brands. For example RP - 8000F, I spent $2000 for the pair which is I guess very steep if compared to US prices. Fortes are $6500 a pair which discourages people here to buy such an expensive set of speakers when they can have similar or better speakers with same or less price. This is the reason most of the dealers do not even stock RF 7/Forte but are available on order only.
The nearest place to audition Forte is around 2 hours flight from my place and they have set up a demo of Forte with Roksan integrated amp which I guess is not a tube one? I know its foolish to buy a speaker without even listening to it and just go by with online reviews and recommendations. This might not work with a particular set of amps but may be heaven on earth with another set of amps.
Even if I travel to other city for the demo, I am restricted to listen to it with what ever equipment they have paired it with. So not much I can do on this.
Regarding appearance, I am a fan of vintage looking stuff. Be it speakers or electronics. I would prefer an amplifier in a wooden body over a metallic one . No doubt I prefer Forte over RF 7 in terms of looks even I love Cornwalls. RF 7 are just bit bigger in dimensions as compared to RP-8000F. So kinda I have already enjoyed those looks from RP-8000F.
The other speakers that I have auditioned are some Polk, Dali, Mission and Monitor Audio. I didn't get any oomph factor at that time. I guess they were all hooked to entry level equipment only and when played using a decent AVR I didn't feel any difference. So I think I would still prefer the clarity produced by Klipsch, though bit lean sounding HF but I guess as long as mids are there to compensate, I should be happy.
About source, I had a misconception that I can use my phone to play music. Be it Spotify Connect/Bluetooth or MP3 using Laptop via HDMI. This myth got debunked as I started playing. Not every track on Spotify is in hi res. Even YouTube (Free version) at times is much better than Spotify Premium. And the choice of music I have (mostly old recordings of US/Indian) are not very acoustically rich or not very well recorded as compared to today's recordings. It would be unfair to expect every song to play like "Hotel California/Keith Don't Go". I was getting frustrated with this kind of comparisons. Its very true the more revealing speakers are electronics would out rightly expose the flaws in the source.
So this is the whole story. My chances are still to go with Forte (most likely a blind buy) in a hope of better quality over RP - 8000F and horn loaded mid range should be more bloomy/prominent than the RP -8000F. I am already in the process of finding a suitable Amp for Forte (again I won't be able to pair with Forte before buying)
This time I'll try my best not to be impulsive but rationale.
Thanks for your help.
Vivek
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21 hours ago, robert_kc said:
Hello Vivek Batra,
As I said earlier, I have no experience with the Forte, so I’m afraid that I cannot offer any advice about it.
You said that you don't like the sound of your RP -8000F. And you weren't enthused after listening to the RF-7III. FWIW, I think it would be foolish to buy a speaker that you know you don't like.
Do you ever travel to other cities where you might have the opportunity to audition the Forte III?
Have you listened to speakers that are not horn based? It is not my intent to dissuade you from Klipsch speakers – I’m a Klipsch fan. Klipsch’s high sensitivity rating affords much more flexibility in choosing an amp, because Klipsch speakers don’t require much power. And, Klipsch speakers generally are capable of significant dynamics, which is important for the large-scale classical music and opera that I love.
Do you have a preference for the appearance of the Forte III vs. RF-7III?
While I understand your reluctance to buy a speaker without auditioning it, if it were me, I’d “roll the dice” rather than buy a speaker that I’ve heard that I know that I don’t like. As you’ve pointed out, the Forte III is a fundamentally different design (e.g., 3 way vs. 2 way), and undoubtedly sounds different than the RF-7III.
If the Forte III appeals to you, I imagine that with the right amp you could achieve good sound quality. As I suggested earlier, I strongly encourage you to get an amp with tone controls.
There's another important topic that we haven't discussed: the source. Garbage-in/garbage-out – you can’t make a silk purse from a sow’s ear - you’ll never realize better audio quality than the quality of the recording and source component.
Music is deeply personal, and I respect the fact that different people like different music. For some music genres (e.g., classical music) there are modern recordings that employ newer audio recording technologies (e.g., 24bit/192kHz PCM or DSD) compared with decades-old recordings. And, for the classical music that I love, such modern recordings are available to the consumer via newer technologies (i.e., newer consumer deliverables) compared with the decades-old consumer deliverable known as Redbook CD (16 bit/44.1khz), or comparable bit-rate audio delivered via streaming.
If a recording was captured and mastered in 24bit/192kHz, it can be made available to the consumer at 24bit/192kHz (or 24bit/96kHz) via a download (e.g., FLAC download from HDTracks), or on a Blu-ray, Pure Audio Blu-ray, or Ultra HD Blu-ray disc. (Moreover, Blu-ray and Ultra HD Blu-ray feature other advances that are important to the music that I love, including surround-sound (i.e., 5.1), hi-def video (which is particularly important for visual art forms such as opera and ballet – but IMO also enjoyable for classical orchestral music), and display of an opera’s libretto (in one of several languages) on the HDTV screen.)
SACD is another hi-res multi-channel audio format (no video) that is very common for classical music.
Both Blu-ray and SACD discs provide a stereo audio track in addition to the surround-sound audio track, and therefore Blu-ray and SACD can have value even if you’re not interested in surround-sound. (FLAC downloads from HDTracks are stereo.)
Provenance of a recording is critical. Modern recordings that were captured and mastered in hi-res (i.e., 24bit/192kHz, or DSD) are capable of the best audio quality when delivered to the consumer in a hi-res format. (An old recording can’t be magically transformed by converting it to a different format, or encapsulating it in a different container (such as FLAC). A few top-quality vintage analog master tapes (e.g., some RCA Living Stereo) have been digitized and mastered in hi-res, and delivered on SACD, with fairly good results, but they pale in comparison with state-of-the-art modern recordings.)
Older recordings (including LPs) can deliver significant enjoyment, and are of course the only choice for historically significant performances - in all genres of music. (Classical music lovers sometimes must decide which is more important: performance quality (which might be a decades-old performance), or audio quality of a recording.) With that said, if you only listen to decades-old recordings, you are limited to what was state-of-the-art recording technology decades ago. And if you listen to relatively low bit rate digital music, you won’t realize the best possible audio quality. (A high-quality hi-fi system might make a low-quality recording’s shortcomings more apparent).
There are numerous web sites that catalog hi-res recordings. Here’s a few:https://www.hraudio.net/ lists some, but certainly not all hi-res recordings.
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical
https://www.nativedsd.com/
http://store.acousticsounds.com/superhirez
https://concertsondvd.com/collections/blueray-concerts
https://www.hdtracks.com/If you only want stereo (i.e., 2 channel), and you’re interested in a “universal player” with analog audio outputs (so that you can use a traditional hi-fi amp vs. an AVR that uses an HDMI connection), then I suggest that you research a universal player such as the Sony UBP-X1100ES: https://www.sony.com/electronics/blu-ray-disc-players/ubp-x1100es. (I have no experience with this Sony unit. I use Oppo universal players, but they are no longer manufactured.)
Bottom line, FWIW my advice:- Read as much as you can about the speakers you are considering
- Be patient. If you will be traveling to other cities where you can audition the Forte III, it may be prudent to wait
- Get an amp with tone controls
- Consider state-of-the-art recordings, and consider a compatible appliance that can play hi-res recordings
- Once installed, fine-tune the sound quality of your system via tone controls, speaker placement, and basic room treatments such as rugs and draperies
I hope this helps.
Please keep us posted.
Hi robert_kc
Much appreciated that you took out time to explain things in detail. I will do a write up about my situation.
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57 minutes ago, Kidd said:
Im using an 15 year old yammie av purchased from BB to power my Forte 3 , sounds wonderful .
I do have a primaluna here and a Parasound on the way to use on my H3 to see what I like best , tube or SS .
Have not heard the F3 with the PL as of yet
Sold my motorcycle , have extra money to play with
Thanks for chiming in. I am also thinking about Primaluna pre and power combo.
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8 hours ago, robert_kc said:
I own RF-7II and Palladium, but have never heard Forte. I listen mostly to classical music.
In my experience with using Klipsch speakers, a tube amp helps to get the timbre of a natural instrument such as the human voice right. I specifically like 6L6GC amps with my Klipsch speakers, but other tube amps can sound good via use of tone controls. (For example, IME KT88s can sound bright - turning down the treble helps.)
Bottom line, synergy between amps and speakers is important. I love my RF-7II. I’m certain the RF-7III is a great speaker. I suggest that you consider driving them with a tube amp, and as others have suggested, use tone controls. (All vintage tube integrated amps have tone controls.) I’m not saying that you can’t achieve good sound quality with a solid-state amp – I just prefer tubes. Whether tube or solid-state, I strongly encourage you to get an amp with tone controls.
The RF-7II have strong bass, nonetheless I use 2 subwoofers with my RF-7II (SVS SB16-Ultra, Klipsch R-115SW) because I listen to large-scale orchestral music. My Oppo UDP-205 universal player includes a crossover that off-loads the power-hungry bass from the main amp and speakers, increasing overall dynamic range. For folk music, this isn’t a factor.
In deciding between the RF-7III and the Forte III, I suggest that you also consider the dimensions of each, and how each interacts with the room. Which will fit your space better in terms of footprint, and where it must be placed relative to the walls? I suggest that you google something like: “klipsch forte placement site:audiokarma.org”. (My RF-7IIs are far away from walls.) Which speaker will put the high frequency driver at ear level, based on your listening position?
I think you are asking the right question by asking people who listen to similar music (and have similar room size and listening habits) which speaker they prefer. I suggest that the amp is also important, and if you have restrictions regarding where the speakers must be placed (particularly distance from walls), that may also be a factor.
I’ll be interested in reading others’ comments.
Good luck, and please keep us posted.
Hi @robert_kc
Thanks for your informative post.
So far during my reading about heritage series, it's mostly a consensus that Klipsch sound warm with tubes. I am also planning to venture in to tube world but may be not immediately.
Regarding placement, my system is in living room against the 12 feet wall. I can not have the speakers to much in to the room but just 1 feet from back wall and around 6 to 7 feet apart.
I have also read about Forte that they are very sensitive to amps. Don't know how true it is. In any case I have to replace my Avr with stereo amps. As RF 7 are rear ported, they would need more space from the rear wall? vs Sealed Forte? I could be wrong here.
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10 hours ago, glens said:
I purchased a Forte III pair without any audition. While I slightly hesitate to recommend you do the same, I can say that I would do it again in a heartbeat.
@Youthman had made a youtube video comparing the RF-7 II with the Forte III and even though I suspect his preference for one over the other was in part due to loudness differences not accurately accounted for, the video cemented my decision for me.
[Edit: That last phrase now "sounds to me" like I was maybe contemplating one of those two speakers similarly to your situation. That wasn't the case. I was and remain uninterested in the RFs. Sorry.]
Hi glens
I have seen that video where Micahel aka @Youthman compared A/B with RF 7. His preference was RF 7 though. I felt that in that video Forte were not loud enough.
My inclination is towards Forte hoping to get better SQ from a 3 system having 2 crossovers.
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1 hour ago, ILI said:
Fortes are a food investment, always.
What is your listening room like? Your current setup should deliver pretty good sound quality.
Marantz has a 'loudness' button to boost bass when listening at low volume. I like or a lot.
Hi ILI
I have Denon x4500H and when I play it in Direct/Pure mode the sound is just flat and awful. So I need to use its room correction Audyssey. My set up is in living room size is about 18x12x10 Feet.
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Hi Guys
Please excuse me if the similar question has been asked before but I would like to state my current situation and then want to decide. I am trying to setup a 2 channel system only and no intent to use the speakers for HT. Due to my ignorance initially I invested in Denon x4500H with RP-8000F and R-115 SW. I am not happy with the setup and I am not sure its the speakers or the amplifier that makes me unhappy.. My main concern is that I miss the mids a lot. Vocals are very prominent but the bass and mids are dull from RP -8000F.
What I listen to : Kenny Rogers, Dire Straits, Jim Reeves,Bob Dylan, Diana Ross Lobo,Abba, Eagles, The Beatles,Buddy Holy, Carpenters,John Denver and similar country and English classical list is very long. I guess you would get an idea of genre I prefer.
Now I have an option to upgrade my RP -8000F and I am confused between RF 7 III and Forte III. I had a A/B demo with RF 7 and RP -8000F. The bass was good from RF- 7 but I guess the mids were not much different than RP -8000F.
If I am not wrong, the Forte has horn loaded driver for mid range and in IMO the mids should be as sharp/pronounced as highs from the tweeter because both are horn loaded? Please correct me if I am wrong here.
If I go with Forte, do I still need the sub woofer as I already have one? If yes then currently I cross to sub woofer at 80hz and the Forte frequency response is 38Hz - 25KHz. May be crossing at 60Hz would be good with Forte?
I am sure a number of people here would have experience with both Rf 7 and Forte. What my expectation from the speakers is I want maximum detailing and instrument separation while listening to any kind of music at low volume levels say Jazz. I have no option to listen to Forte so will have to go for a blind buy. I am also going to upgrade/change my Denon receiver to some solid state class AB pre and power amps after this.So any advice what kind of amps are good with Forte will be a boon.
Considering my taste of music and expectation should I go with RF 7 or Forte?
My audio source is Spotify Premium
Thanks a lot.
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3 minutes ago, pzannucci said:
Recognize this is not optimal but will likely work unless you push your speakers very hard.
I guess this would void the warranty as well ?
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3 minutes ago, pzannucci said:
A one or two ohm quality resistor in place of the strap going to the high frequency may do the trick and take the edge off.
Sorry this is beyond my knowledge. Could you please explain a bit?
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Just now, pzannucci said:
Those settings should have brought up the midrange some and made a warmer sound. The highs may still be a little "in your face" depending on placement and room treatment.
Yeah increase in bass but still bright. I do not have any room treatments. But I guess whole reference range of Klipsch is too bright same was the case with RF 7 III. Did not get any chance to listen to any of the heritage series. Let's see how happy I may end up with tweaks. Thanks a lot for the help.
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1 hour ago, pzannucci said:
Have you started running the RP-8000F speakers full range?
Yes now I am running them as "Large" and bass as LFE + MAINS
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14 hours ago, avguytx said:
It's like I used to tell people when I was in retail home & car audio sales and also as a rep; You can have $10,000 worth of gear but if your source is an AM radio, your sound is going to be a $10,000 AM radio. Or as it's also said, trash in, trash out. Spotify is great and all but it's going to be a little more limited in its range. Make sure you Spotify set for the best mode possible. If on the desktop app, make sure Streaming Quality is set to Very High and make sure it's NOT set for "Normalize volume" where it sets the same level for all songs. That will restrict it as well. Are you streaming from a phone or a PC? Your DAC could be a shortcoming too if you're coming straight off of a computer, or phones, 1/8" audio output and using an adapter that converts to R/L RCA cables. I use a desktop PC and run Spotify, along with JRiver running FLAC files from my NAS, from the USB output into my Onkyo P-3000R and its DAC does a great job of SQ. I've tried Tidal and Deezer....neither sounded that much better to justify the extra money not to mention their wonky interface.
Do you have a CD player or turntable where you can test with a different source?
I have followed your suggestion on settings on spotify. I am playing spotify on laptop and through HDMI (DVD port on Denon) routing the sound. Occasionaly I use the Spotify Connect (direct pllayback on Denon via same network) so no wires. Does any of the method makes any difference? I am done with all other options except using a turntable or a cd player. I'll try to arrange that. Thanks for your suggestions.
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26 minutes ago, pzannucci said:
Disable your AVR Audessy and run the 8000F's full range.Set the sub for around 60hz or lower, match the output. You might be quite surprised.
Hi
I have turned off the Audessy, seems better but at lower crossover I loose bass so 80hz sounds best for now. Lets see how this works out for less acoustic songs.
Thanks.
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@pzannucci @willland Thanks for pitching in. So here are some details. The room size is aprrox 18*12 *10 (L*W*H).
My Settings on AVR are
Audessy MultiEQ XT32 - Reference
Dynamic EQ - On
Reference Level Offset -0db
Dynamic Volume - Off
Speakers - Small
Bass - LFE Only
Crossover - 80Hz
LPF for LFE - 120Hz
Now my dislikes
I fee that the horn tweeter of RP-8000F dominates the mid range woofers. In other words sound signature is not soft and warm but too thin and bright. I had a audition last week comparing RF 7 III and RP-8000F with switcher and switching intermittently. RF 7 III were surely better than the 8000F. Other short coming I have is I am plyaing from Spotify. And I need to crank up to volume upto -25 or -20 db then I feel some dynamics otherwise 8000f's sound pretty flat to me.
I am not aware what other settings I can tweak in the AVR to benefit. I am Ok wiht the bass but not happy with mid range. I tried setting Audessy to off but not much improved rather sound level declined further. My expectation from the system is clarity even at low volume levels without loosing any details and some air around the music.
God know my expectation is even real or hypethetical.
BTW I am listening to Kenny Rogers, Carlos Santana, Pat Boone, Queen, Beatles, Connie Francis etc
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Hi
Please excuse me if this question seems to basic to you guys. I am still very naive in understandings some basic things. I have a Denon X4500H with RP-8000F and R-115SW. I am not very happy with the sound quality. I am planning to change the whole equipment. My inclination is towards Anthem STR series Pre and Power Amps and to replace RP-8000F with either Forte or Cornwall.
Below are some specs for all the equipments.
Planned Anthem Power Amp at 8 ohms 400 wpc
Current Denon X4500H at 8 ohm 125wpc
From Klipsch Web Site
RP -8000F power handling Continous/Peak 150/600 watts, Senstivity 98db
Forte III Continous/Peak 100/400 watts, Senstivity 99db
Cornwall III Continous/Peak 100/400 watts
I did not find anything on Klipsch specs that says suitable amplifer range (as other manufactures list in speaker specs).
My doubt is can i pair the Anthem power amp that produces 400/wpc with any of the towers? Am I at risk of burning my speakers? How come 8000F can handle more power but is low on SPL?
Or Can I still use Denon and replace to 8000f and Denon will be powerful enough to drive Forte or Cornwall?
Thanks for the help.
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On 2/27/2019 at 3:18 PM, JefDC said:
Hello Vivek,
I have a Denon AVR4300H - same model as yours but a little older (1 or 2 years) - and have RP8060FA's connected as fronts.
The RP8060FA is a RP8000 but with an Atmos module build in.
My experience is exactly the same as yours, the speakers sound flat, lifeless and lack bass (you use a subwoofer so you might not notice the lack of bass so hard).
After connecting an external amplifier the speakers came to life. That external amplifier has a smaller (but similar) power specification at 8 Ohms compared to the Denon but can power speakers with impedances down to 2,7 Ohm. (the amplifier is a XTZ Edge A2-300 - class D ICEpower).
I cannot find impedance charts for the new RP8000/8060FA yet but the older model RP280 had impedance dips to 3,1 Ohms.
(see attached graph - source: https://hometheaterreview.com/klipsch-rp-280fa-tower-speaker-reviewed/?page=2)
I suspect that the Denon is not capable to power a RP8000/RP8060 properly because of the impedance dips of the speakers i.e. there is sufficient power for 8 ohms but the amplifier cannot generate enough current when the impedance drops.
Although I like the Denon for all its functionality, the audio part seems to be lacking.
Also, my Denon amplifier runs so hot (on the 8Ohm setting) that the video convertor occasionally stops working. After changing the impedance setting in the Denon from 8 to 4 Ohms the amplifier runs much cooler and without video convertor problems, but it did not change the sound of the audio
I would suggest that you borrow a few amplifiers from friends or willing shops and evaluate the RP8000 with those before changing your speakers. The sound quality difference was immediately obvious in my case.
Jef
Hi Jef
Are you planning to add a external 2 channel power amp? May be 200w/ch will it make any difference? What other amps you tried?
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@MetropolisLakeOutfitters @Cory Hi Guys are you able to watch this thread? Not sure if tagging you would send any alerts to you? I need your help in improving my music listening experience as I am a newbie here. Thanks
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Klipsch RF 7 III vs Forte III
in 2-Channel Home Audio
Posted
Hi @glens
Thanks for chiming in. If I have got you right you are proposing me to go for Forte for the kinda music I listen to? What kinds amps you paired with Forte?