John Warren

it's *Nipper*, not *Chipper*

$7500 a pair. (Tweeter, ETC. Peabody, MA)

Ummmm...there is a limit to the 3db for ever 2X in power, its called *power compression*-> SPL/W drops when voice coils get hot. sensitivity drops with power. it terminates with a smoked voice coil.

(BobG) We do outsource most all drivers to companies that have state of the art manufacturing and R&D facilities. (jw sidebar) they go to China like everyone else (BobG) Though there is some panache to 'doing it all in-house', we truly believe we can offer better performance (let alone better value) by working with companies that build millions (literally) of drivers each year. (jw sidebar)-> to make good transducers it takes engineering and alot of capital equipment, investments that the LLC isn't willing or can't make. Besides it's easier to make MDF boxes, stuff them with cheap drivers and then charge 20X the basis cost. Do you think the *average* customer even cares? (BobG) They can afford to do the R&D and go down the many dead ends that are part of that process. Then we benefit by obtaining the choice of best technologies. (jw sidebar)-> what R&D??? where are these *labs*? In reality, China can re-engineer and copy designs faster than anyone else, if you can't beat em.... (BobG) In the early days of high fidelity, it was standard practice for speaker companies to buy drivers from driver companies. Speaker companies didn't build drivers, with a very few exceptions. (jw sidebar)-> EV, Jensen, Altec, Trusonic, Hartley, JBL, Bozak, Wharfedale, Utah, KEF, Permoflux, University, Tannoy, etc.. all built their own drivers. KEF even poured their own magnets. What *early* days of high fidelity are we referring to here? (BobG) Since Klipsch was around very near the beginning, this approach has always seemed natural to us and we haven't adopted the marketing approach of bragging that we build drivers in-house. (jw sidebar) PWK was one guy, with a saw in a shed in Hope, AR. Not really in a position to start a raw driver manufacturing company! Also, the Klipschorn *has* suffered over the years from seemingly endless driver changes, each with inconsistent results, all driven by outside supplier issues. the woofer, mid-range and tweeter alone have gone thru seemingly endless revision histories that, in some instances, made the unit sound worse. (BobG) Who builds our drivers? Lots of different companies; and we are constantly working with new ones to give you the best we can. (jw sidebar)-> cost reduction pressures are the same in the mass market speaker biz as they are everywhere else. it all comes dowm to $$$. it's Lung Cho Chan LLC one day and then Cho Chin Ling LLC the next.

I have address each concern of HDBR- 1. It's veneers (when veneered to LOOK like wood) don't tend to stay on it for any great length of time. (jw) urea resin + high contact pressure = long lasting 2. If it ever gets wet...it is history!! (jw) agreed, MDF + water = oatmeal BUT so was the case with particle board, the *mainstay* enclosure material of the 60s, 70s and early 80s. 3. If one bashes a corner, it is almost irrepairable damage...and is much more susceptible to greater damage from a small bashing than plywood is. And you can't just wet it a little and swell minor dent damage back out with an iron like on plywood. (jw) if it's hit hard enough to cave in the MDF corner, the loudspeaker magnet broke off too. 4. It doesn't hold most glues, nails, or screws as well as plywood...and the likelihood of a screw-head being "torqued off", broken screws from over-torqueing, strip-out of the "threads" in the media when replacing components, etc...is much more likely with MDF...due to that same great density we like for sonic efficiency so much! (also a problem in baltic birch...for the same reason) (jw) I used to believe these things until I started to work with MDF. Yellow glue, heavily applied with lots of clamps is more that adequate strength for enclosure joinery, also screws driven into it (holes pre-drilled) have good bite. Rub blocks are essential too. 5. It is a ***** to sand down flush when leaving overhangs on lap joints...and the resulting sanded edges look like crap when attempting to apply a nice smooth finish...and seams tend to never get hidden well after a finish is applied...unless one gobs on a "flexible finish" like urethanes. (jw) agreed, but plywood end-grain, veneer delams, end-voids are no joy either. 6. It is heavy as hell (a by-product of the consistent density mentioned in this thread above). (jw) Not all heavy transfomers are good transformers BUT all good transformers are heavy transformers. Sometimes weight has a *quality* all its own. 7. It is ugly as hell...too! (jw) that's why we veneer. Also, they can be painted to *glass-sheet* smoothness. I think natural wood finished are way over-rated. 8. Sawing, routing, and sanding it is an exercise in filling one's lungs(with no dustmask), eyes(even with eye protection), ears, and every nook and cranny in ones being with a fine annoying sawdust that clogs the pores of the skin very badly...no matter HOW GOOD one's dust collection system is!! (jw) agreed, this is a real down side. the material is tough on 12" 80 tooth carbide saws operating on a Tannewitz table. BUT that's the price you pay for high density. if balsa wood worked.... 9. It is full of chemicals that exhaust out of it over time...definitely not good for homes with chemical allergy problems within them!! (this is also why it tends to have its applied veneers lift off from it as these chemicals try to escape it and are trapped under the veneer, creating bubbles) (jw)I've heard this and understand that this is possible since the *glue* that holds MDF together is urea based and it does give off gas (out-gassing). I'm skeptical about the bubble thing though since to lift the veneer would require a significant pressure which PV=kNT may prove a fantasy. 10. It is very hard on sharpened tools, like router bits, saw blades, etc...dulling them up rapidly!! (but so is BALTIC birch...so damned much glue in it!!, BUT baltic birch is also heavy and dense as hell...making it a good sonic quality media, too...and it actually, on occassion, looks good!!) (jw) agreed, but MDF is cheaper. All in all, I appreciate the spirit that HDBR is added to the discussion. He brings up good points. Bottom line plywood is still alot easier to work.

dean- I didn't say I didn't like metal cones. we were talking about *coating* them ps-wood products are not *true* elastic solids, but the parameter (modulus) can still be measured. This message has been edited by John Warren on 06-17-2002 at 05:28 AM

I like MDF, its density (46 lbs/ft^3) is higher that the highest quality birch 13-ply (42 lbs/ft^3) so for a fix volume of material it has more mass making it more difficult to drive into spurious resonance (remember Newton's F=MA?). MDF has a lower elastic modulus (350ksi) relative to premium birch ply (1500ksi). since the speed of sound in a solid is propotional to the modulus this means that MDF is better at damping in-panel standing waves. MDF is an isotropic solid, it's properties are the same in all directions so placement is a non issue plywood is anisotropic, properties perpendicular to the laminations are not same as in-plane MDF comes in 1" thickness, plywood does too but you have to by a truckload to get it. So I'm in disagreement with you all. nothing new around here.

Dean, I don't think you are *deluded*. I read the white paper, it needs to go further in proving the claims. When I was in grad long time ago, my thesis advisor said once that he was smart enought to *theorize* 1000 different reasons why something would (or wouldn't) work only to be proven wrong.

Mark- I was under the impression that the IM distortion for this amp is rated over a narrow bandwith (like 60-10kHz) and is on the order of 2-3% at 2X14W total output. And when measured over 50-12kHz it shows significant strain. The "Audio League" did a review on this amp, I have to find it. mh- I think the Eico is a vintage example of a low cost, high quality audio DIYer amp that was a real novelty in the 50s. ANd I would take it over just about ANYTHING sold by Tweeter today. but I also think that some people think that for $200 and a retube they get a Marantz Model 2 clone. My take on it is it is a nice low powered amp with (by todays standards) limited LF and HF output. my humble opinion. This message has been edited by John Warren on 06-10-2002 at 07:02 PM

Dean- I don't know what CMMD *really* is but if its coming out of Infinity and JBL Consumer then its anybodys guess. JBL comes out with CMMD so Klipsch has to comes out with Cerametallica, etc, etc.. At least Klipsch states that they are anodizing. Aluminum cone drivers sound different and Rudy Bozak in 1965 new the same thing, he developed aluminum drivers (mids and tweeters) and sold them with a thick black anodized finish which spalls off. This message has been edited by John Warren on 06-10-2002 at 05:12 AM

chassis are rusted, knobs missing, OT missing, no tubes, the usual condition. $50-100 is the range. find a ham radio type and ask him/her where and when the next hamfest is.

Dean- It's NOT anodization, it's anodizing. It's done in a tank. Ever see a blue aluminum bottle opener? thats blue anodizing, ever see that fancy red/blue aluminum fittings on race car fuel lines, that's red and blue anodizing, it is done in garage operations for fractions of a penny per part. It is primarily for corrosion and cosmetics. BTW, aluminum oxide is almost 2X the density of aluminum (twice the weight for equal volume). Do you *really* think that that helps??? Christ, the coating is so thin that you can actually *see* the reflection off the base material. Dean, that picture looks like JBL consumer audio which is pure garbage. This message has been edited by John Warren on 06-09-2002 at 08:49 PM

leok- the HF-81 is an all-triode, non-ultralinear Williamson circuit. It was marketed by EICO as a Stereo Intergrated Williamson amp. Outputs are cathode-biased push-pull EL-84s. Single steel chassis construction, straightforward assy for the DIYer. a nice little amps for the den, rec room or wood shop. puts out an honest 14wpc, lacks real low output and make noise when they operate. I see them at hamfests all the time. got a Heath WA-P1 an earlier Williamson version based on the STANCOR OT. The amp uses 807s instead of KT-66s, first two stages use R-C power-supply filtering. It's a yawner. I've got a Scott version around here too. It needs tubes and I'd rather spend my money of JBL pro drivers. I just bought (8) 2123Js from the JBL tent sale, a pair of Community compression drivers and horns and I'm build two pairs of 3-way networks using some pricey "audiophile" components so tubes are out this year. glad you liked the Stan White article. forgot to mention I'm going to drive the 2123s with a Mc2500 (that's 1.2kWs of pure SS muscle) This message has been edited by John Warren on 06-09-2002 at 08:28 PM

DEAN! Ceramic Metal Matrix Drivers aren't what Klipsch is selling now STOP confusing yourself, you falling into the LLC's trap. They are taking aluminum and anodizing it, the coating is too thin to contribute to the stiffening that would be observed in a real composite system. Do you think that a coat of stain on a sheet of plywood is going to improve its strength??? Anyway, this is what they are all after. These cones run about $2000 each (cone only still need a motor structure). I heard a system in the Netherlands with these cones, the bass was scary. THIS is the ULTIMATE CONE, a glass-ceramic- This message has been edited by John Warren on 06-09-2002 at 05:41 AM

oh, a vacation?.....I figured that with all your *knowledge* about electronics you might of electrocuted yourself. ps- so your sh*tting on a pair of McIntosh Mc30s? Ok, you win, I'd trade you the Macs for the Eico unit but sounds to me like you wouldn't be interested. This message has been edited by John Warren on 06-08-2002 at 07:58 PM

Mark-I agree, tube amps can do the job with a range of *flavors*. Problem is that NOS tubes are $$$ and I'm tired of getting screwed with tube suppliers. I run a pair of Mc30s in the "main rig".

Dean a *typical* anodized layer is between .0001 and .0002 inches thick. it is a process that converts aluminum base material to aluminum oxide. the woofer cones are anodized because if they weren't the cones would look ratty since bare aluminum *selectively* oxidizes. I can understand why they anodize the cones. for this particular application (a loudspeaker) it is purely cosmetic, but why they have to go into this "cerametallic" nonsense and how it improves the sound makes me want to throw-up. So, why do a couple of people think Williamson amps sound so good? Who knows, why do people buy Bose cubes. It usually depends on what else they've got to compare it against AND experience. I've got a Heathkit Williamson, it's in real good condition. It's a better amp qualty wise than the EICO, the Heathkit Williamson is a dog. Remember too, one of the proponents is also pushing the *green pen* CD trick which was a Usenet rec.audio.opinion "joke" that somehow took on a life of its own. Paul- The article is not nonsense. The Williamson amp was very popular with builders because it was a decent amp early in the field of audio. The plethora of Williamson amps out there is due more to the fact that kits were a cheap way to go in the 50s. Like Dyna in the 70s. I've got two Williamson DIYer amps (Heathkit and Scott) given to me by my mentors. It does not sound terrible, BUT tube design peaked LONG AFTER the introduction of the Williamson amp. Yes, there are variants to the design and the original has been improved. BUT if your going to go to the trouble of buying into tubes, at least get amps designed by the best and brightest of the era. This message has been edited by John Warren on 06-08-2002 at 04:48 PM

g

the JBL 4638s were *given* away, they were bargains. I purchased a ton of stuff from that sale. in shipping costs alone, would have equaled to the total invoice! I'm thinking that the stuff is insurance write-offs from the '94 Northridge earthquake since most of the raw drivers I bought were manufactured prior to that date. Below is *lessons learned* from JBL memo to distributors ------------------------------------------------- On The Benefits Of Natural Disasters The earthquakes have had a definite impact on how JBL does business, particularly in the way in which inventory and materials are stored. The first-hand experience of having a major quake strike the plant has brought some very interesting things to light. Pallets that were aligned parallel to the fault lines had a tendency to 'walk' with the quake's energy; pallets that were aligned transversely to the fault lines would not move much. In certain areas, where there was quake-generated wave motion things tended to stagger, whereas storage and assembly structures that were aligned on axis to the wave motion remained relatively still. This first-hand knowledge allowed JBL to store the equipment in ways that will make it more resistant to earthquake damage in the future. These reorientations, combined with more efficient ways of securing the stacks at the top and the bottom, have prepared them to face the next batch of tectonic activity more efficiently. JBL's Northridge facility is billed as the 'Factory of the Future' with good reason. The high level of automation is complemented by the amazing amount of vertical integration present at the facility. To take any more of the processes in-house would probably require planting trees in the foyer and having a retail outlet on the loading dock. The temptation to make mythic comparisons with the Phoenix rising from the ashes should be avoided. The advances made at Northridge have not been the result of magic, but rather hard work, astute planning and lessons learned at the unforgiving hand of Mother Nature. As a company, JBL seems poised to always stay one step ahead. This message has been edited by John Warren on 06-08-2002 at 06:36 AM

the AL network is esentially the same as the AK network except for the woofer choke and mounting scheme. from my experience, the AA and AL networks can be sonically improved by upgrading the caps and the mid choke to premium quailty equivalents. I've changed out the caps on both and heard what I thought to be a *pleasing alternative*.

What a FOX! This message has been edited by John Warren on 06-06-2002 at 07:29 PM

the catalog is worth more than the speakers. This message has been edited by John Warren on 05-30-2002 at 05:30 AM

can you hear it on headphones?

it's closer to 6 feet in length.