formica

The casters makes moving them around alot easier BUT will reduce the bass... so it definitely affects the sound. don't feel bad about the trim john... i like your trim better. Looks more "correct" if you know what i mean...

Ahhhh... the good old days... HEY wait a minute, i wasn't born yet !! and neither were most of you !! ... Honestly, even though it is a little off topic, i don't think we can generalize about homes the same way we can't about speakers. There were (and are) homes of all types and budgets ... and there is a better understanding of proper constrution now than there was 75 years ago. I know some would say look at a Klipschorn versus a Bose Accumass or something like that, but then you could compare a new Klipsch Jubilee with a 70's JVC 3 way? Just a thought... Rob

I'd also like to mention that if it's a car sub with an AMP, it'll need a high amperage 12V source. It'll cost you quite abit to convert that to work on 120V... Considering the low cost of used amplifiers, I don't think it's worth it. Later... Rob

You should hit the DIY forums like http://www.audioasylum.com/index.html who have a High Efficiency Speakers forum... that may be of great help to design your horn loaded speaker. There is also http://www.diyaudio.com/ ... BUT my favourite is http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/index.php in their DIY section... but converations tend to be more subwoofer oriented though. Are you planning a LAB type enclosure? LAB Subwoofer Project Forum at http://www.prosoundweb.com/community/forum.php?board=3 You didn't mention where you are from and many of my links are Canadian... Apart from PartsExpress you already mentioned you should take a look at Madisound, they also have a great forum: http://www.madisound.com/ There is also Solen who are well know for their x-over components, but distribute many European Drivers as well: http://www.solen.ca/ Truth is, if you choose a driver, you can look up find a local distributor... hope it's of some help... Rob

---------------- On 4/30/2003 4:16:20 PM trespasser_guy wrote: my next speaker building project ... will be a DIY sub using the Adire DPL12. ---------------- You didn't mention your planned enclosure type but since you are looking at the DPL12, you might be interested by some of the very specialized woofers offered by Lambda Acoustics at http://www.lambdacoustics.com/drivers.html who also offer a Di-Polar (DPL) type woofers as well as many different sealed and ported ones. Just though you may find it interesing... Rob

That seems to extend pretty good for such a small sealed enclosure... were those near field or from your seated position? Have you tried pushing it? Just wondering on how it handled 750W... mind you, it probably wouldn't bottom out in that sealed box. Dont worry, I won't tell your brother... BFD really tames that room responce... i'll have to look into one, once i actually build my sub... Rob.

Thanks for the heads up... but right now i think i'll look more for another set of small Heresys (same bass, smaller size) or maybe even other Cornwalls (more bass, almost same size)... Funny how all this started when i felt like a DIY centre channel... later... Rob

---------------- On 5/1/2003 10:08:51 AM horonzak wrote: Soundstage Is a myth. allot of recordings are multi mic mastering ..... When some reviewer claims he hears the back wall of the stage, Its probably just the reflection off the top of the musicians balled head. ---------------- I just liked that one... as he's so right about it being all (>90%) in the sound engineer's hands ---------------- On 5/1/2003 tubenube wrote: Years ago I stumbled into a high end audio store ... I sat in a ... listening chair facing two every tall "$50,000/pair" electrostatic speakers .... Anyway, they put on a 3 piece jazz trio (sax, bass & drums) and I'm here to tell you it sounded so *live* the soundstage was almost frightening real. ---------------- and even if i'm in Montreal, I honestly think we heard the same Martin Logans and the same recording ... i have, since then, had a soft spot for big electrostatic speakers. They are very hard to place and VERY room dependant but the pay back can be worth it in an ideal environement. I have always wondered about that recording they used. As great as the Logies sound they aren't actually true to the original recording (adding reflections, cancelations, colourations, etc...) and this bring up an interesting point. Everyone searches for "perfect reproduction" but wouldn't this represent near field listening in a small mixing booth? Doesn't sound to appealing Rob.

I think using an additional small sub with your center an excellent compromise that will allow you to use all your speakers on the same low x-over setting. I'm guessing you'll feed to sub the > 40Hz frequency signal and use it's built in x-over to highpass your centre? ---------------- I figured any cheap sub can play down to 40hz ---------------- The center sub will have to play quite an audible range of low frequencies... I would avoid a bandpass sub as it's tuning may be totally wrong for your system... try to find a sealed sub which will honestly extend to 30-35Hz (a little overlap into the x-over slope is always good) and keep it pretty close to the centre. I'm not overly familiar with the KG 5.2's but I think they would sound quite nice even if all set to large. When I eventually do build a centre, I'll probably go a similar route as you... Later... Rob

LOL... it took me a minute to figure it out too... it's "Dark Side Of The m00n"

Hey jstanton8, I'm glad that sub is making you feel all-warm inside (or is it the vibrations... It would be great if you could get those rat-shack SPL readings... especially compared to your other sub (a KSW, right?) Do you have the test-tones? I made mine using NCH tone generator, and burnt them onto a disk. Your sub seems very similar to my intended unit but I will use a port rather than the PR for a similar effect. By the way, did you ever figure out your "pro amp" bug? I noticed you are still using the plate amp... but going from 380W to 500W rms shouldn't make a huge difference (1 @ 2db) I'm also really curious about the Maelstrom... it's somewhat an unusual sub with it's very high efficiency and short group delay. I don't think you'll ever miss any bass with these two beasts... Ears: The reason I mention if the Tumult is worth the extra $$ is simply because it just didn't model as well as I expected... maybe my hopes were too high, but so is the price. It features incredible excursion but only approximately 1000W rms power handling and a mediocre efficiency. The 1600W is pure MAX for less than a second... it's already been proven What does all this translate to? To benefit from the excursion, it should be used in a EBS (extended bass system, larger than theoretical box and port tuned low) powered by no more than 1000W. Result? I did a couple modelings of typical vented units. They show about 3db more than a single a AV15 with a 500W amp, and slightly more extension below the 22Hz range... You can always get two more AV15s with the money left over... Or if you prefer a single Maelstrom, it has about a 6db advantage versus the Tumult in everything greater than 26Hz... but drops quickly below that. EQ'ing it, you could come pretty close to the Tumult. I realise that theory doesn't always match real life... and the tumult is a GREAT sub... but i have yet to read a detailed review which honesty says that "the tumult can't be touched" Maybe jstanton could buy all three while he is at it...

Just thought I'd throw in a couple of ideas on bass "punch" and DIY subs that I came across while researching my yet to be completed AV15 sub... more of theory than real life comparison. Most subwoofers are composed of compromises, where one thing is traded for another... things such as size, SPL, extension, group delay, etc... where improving one will usually worsen some of the others. If you're only looking at "punch" or mid-bass power... it's technically a question of raising the level (volume) but the problem when raising the volume at the lowest frequencies is it exponentially increases excursion and the power required. Subs like the RSW has limited the low frequency extension to control this and a lot of power in the mid-bass. Obviously there sometimes seems there are exceptions to these tradeoffs, but in general they hold true. This even applies to drivers... for example three popular models are: 1) Tumult: works in a small enclosure but requires a lot of power. 2) AV15: works in a mid sized enclosure and requires middle power 3) Tempest: requires a large enclosure with least power I'd like to mention the Adire Maelstrom as well since it has a good motor structure and models very well as a musical subwoofer... but like the RSW, it doesn't have very low extension. It is a very efficient driver with a high power handling... so that it would be an ideal candidate for Linkwitz Transform Circuit ! 4) Maelstrom: small enclosure, high SPL, short group delay, small amplifier BUT lacks in low frequency extension If I were to build a music only subwoofer, it would be on my short list in a sealed box... definitely out performing the RSW and could approach a Velo HGS given a well designed transform circuit. Later... Rob

same guy who translated: "All your bass are belong to us" works at Onkyo... Rob _________________________________________________________ ref: http://www.planettribes.com/allyourbase/index.shtml

Cyclonecj, I think your lack of bass is mostly due to the source material, as it really varies alot from one to the next... and what you are hearing when you've set it up with the sub on is probably what the sound engineer intended. Here is my opinion of what is going on: 1) all speakers set to large and sub ON: each channel is receiving what was intended by the sound engineer. You are telling the receiver that your all your speakers can full frequency and you have a sub which can cover the LFE (20Hz to 120Hz I think). Any overlap mixed into the source will appear as well. 2) all speakers set to large and sub OFF: each channel is receiving what was intended by the sound engineer... but now since you "don't have a sub" the LFE is redistributed in the other channels. It's only this redistribution which will vary from one receiver to the next that is: LFE separated between all channels set to large, or perhaps just to the front two. This would be why you here a lot more bass from the speakers with this setting. As for "just_me_the_dude"'s original question of whether you should set your speakers to large of small, there is an interesting editorial on this at The Secrets of Home Theather and HiFi at the following address: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_9_3/feature-article-multiple-crossovers-9-2002.html I may not agree with all his points (I've set all my channels to large), but it is an informative read that will give an insite to how everything is split up and redirected. later... Rob

Well I can't guaranty that the cabinets were original or not, but they were correctly built in terms of dimensions and which sides overlapped the others. It was recently confirmed in another thread that klipsch did build some of the installed theatre (for example the heresy) in ½ rather than ¾... which I found odd as well. They didn't have any handles either which leads me to believe that these may have originally been used as an "installed" speaker. The edging and the corner protectors may not have been original (I don't think installed products were ordered with these?) but the "feet" definitely matched my other klipsch as well as the screws that hold the drivers on.. The woofer "hatch" was on the bottom like the current regular versions. I could not find a serial number on the back, but the edging of the top case did cover the plywood edges. As I mentioned, they have definitely been repainted, so there aren't any obvious logos on them now... but the components were definitely correct: K-55-V mid with Klipsch horn, K-77 tweeter (no letter after the 77) and a Klipsch AA x-over. I don't know the AA well, but it looked pretty basic without the bunch of overload protection I see in pics on some other pro-lascala, but I'm really not sure about this. Remember these are quite old, with the original series x-over and Alnico high and mid. At that price, it would mean that each component would need to be sold for 75$ average... which might be true for the mid horn but not for the x-over with surface rust. It resembled more the left cabinet in your picture, but the HF cabinet has the same width as the Bass bin (it isn't tapered to the rear). I know if I rebuild the boxes it'll improve their WAF, but may hurt/kill their resale. It's quite a bit of money for a DIY center. The seller is supposed to contact me this week... I could always see how negotiable he is. Do you have any more pictures of the industrial series? Klipsch doesn't seem to have any left on their site... Later... Rob

Pincette de Feu is right about my intentions I too am not out to build a sub that'll hit record breaking SPL's (no house tearing SPL's )... But more of a "same room" comparison. Like I'm sure you (l'oreille, maintenant les oreilles) has discovered ... bass frequencies are very room dependant, especially in the rooms lowest audible resonant frequency range. So much so, that comparing 2 subs results / auditions performed in two different rooms reveals more about the rooms than about the subwoofers. I guess my intention is not much different than buying/borrowing several subs, trying them out and reselling those you liked least... which I'm sure you can relate to? If you're in the region, would you be interested? There is a lot of talk about DIY subwoofers and their capability of outperforming some commercial subs... and I'm curious about how much truth there is to this. The problem with many people's personal reviews of their home built sub is that they end up comparing two very different units... one which they have been disappointed with (ummm... can someone say KSW?) and their new hand made, with lots of passion, time, and research subwoofer... Do you see what I'm getting at? I'm thinking "Somewhat biased" When I set out to replace my subwoofer (which I find quite musical, but lacks extension and power) I became very intrigued about SVS and their obvious origins in DIY. Would I be able to build better for less money? I've been told YES, but I honestly don't know... I decided to try it anyways... and it'll be a learning experience into what makes a good sub. I've decided to build, what I think, is a conservative subwoofer: one AV15 in a ±20Hz tuned port 6ft3 enclosure and a 600W mono power amp into it (eventually a BFD to tune it). Once I'm done I'll have only the opportunity to compare 2 subs in the same room, time, and position, so the reference will be quite small... and be of limited use to others. Will it be more musical than a VTF? Will it go deeper than a RSW? Is the Tumult worth it's price difference? Is Smirnoff Ice better than Mike's Hard Lemonade? ahhh.... the great mysteries of the world... Later... Rob

OK, I went and see them... definitely "form follows function" with the flat black paint, metal corners, and plastic edging. The internals are all original with a little surface rust on the x-over (I didn't open the bass bin though) but the cases leave a lot to be desired. They have been patched and repainted long ago, and the protective edging doesn't look original... they are ½ plywood which I had read somewhere here that was common for the industrial/installed products... and pretty ugly especially versus the regular birch boxes. They are missing the front Logo tags. Because of what appears to be filler under the paint, I don't think they are refinishable... The way I see it, the easiest solution would be to replace the cabinets (the plans are pretty simple) but this adds significantly to the price... I don't think the internal components are worth that much... even if they do have the AA x-over. This was also the first time I listened to a pair of LaScala's ... I finally understood the limited bass extension that many post about. The sound on the Cornwalls extends noticeably lower... and more balanced to my taste. I didn't buy them there... I'll consider the cabinet replacement -or- I part them out and rebuild one centre channel... But i might just pass on them... Thanks guys. Rob. PS: maybe I could just recover them in tacky "Formica"?

I noticed you were in Quebec... but are you in the Montreal region too? I'm just asking, as wouldn't it be fun to setup a subwoofer shootout ?? I've pre-ordered a Stryke AV15 (shipping probably in July) and a JBL MPC200 pro amp (see my other posts in subwoofer section as well as the HTF) for an upcomming ported DIY sub. By late summer i'll have my Energy ES12 to compare to my new DIY Stryke AV15... but a VTF-3 would be more serious comparison... and don't even mention the Tumult All the subs would be measured in the same room so the resulting numbers would actually give a feeling how they compare in real life. Drop me a line if it intrigues you... Rob PS: There has been quite a bit of understandable whining over at the HTF in a thread called "Tumult Reviews" as the Tumult had a pre-order period around 6 months ago... most of the buyers are still waiting for their drivers. It's a new design, the initial demand seems to have been quite high, and the manufacturer ran into some initial fabrication problems... all this has angered quite a few Adire customers left waiting. I'm not sure how long it'll take to settle the backorders.

You would have to add the volume of the braces to your calculated volume as well as the volume of the driver itself. If it were a vented box, my understanding is that you'd have to add the port's volume as well. Have you gotten on the Tumult waiting list? There seems to be quite a few a moaning going on at HTF from those who have been waiting for what seems forever.... but it promises to be a pretty impressive driver. Rob.

Thanks guys... Seeing that these already have the AA crossover is only a good thing... The current owner believes they have the K-33 woofer but has never opened them to check it out as the previous (original) owner gave him this info at the time. He's used them in his home for the last 10 years. NOS: Are your cabinets in 2 pieces? Do they basically look like a black birch Lascalas? I've never seen a *Pro* set before, so I'm just a little curious before I go. I guess I'll see what he's willing to let them go for... and probably I'll give them a try at home. Not often you find a set within a 20min drive. Later... Rob. PS: both me and the girlfriend are *industrial/EBM* models...

I didn't make an obvious mention of the polarity, but steps #9 and #10 do talk about alignment of the "voice-coil overlap" and the gap in the magnet... basically this insures the diaphragms + an - are wired correctly. I might edit it to make it a little more obvious though... (and maybe give myself *credit* on the page as well ) Thanks for the comments... Rob

Here is the link (without having to copy / paste): K77-diaphragm-replacement

Some of you may remember that I posted about K-77 tweeter "dying"... Following the advice of several members, I decided to purchase a replacement diaphragm from SimplySpeakers in Florida and installed it myself. I opted not to send the whole K-77 unit to avoid cross-border difficulties. I got the diaphragm, and as posted by others, i finished the install without a hitch. I decided to record the replacement process for anyone who may find it usefull... and I posted the step by step on the web. http://www3.sympatico.ca/bonaz/Klipsch/K77-diaphram/K77-diaphram.htm Enjoy... Rob B.

We are all shopping at the same places i see.... I mentionned the weekend because I already took an appointment to go see them... and if they are nice, i'd like to decide on the spot. It works out to about 600$US but hopefully he'll go for less... The components *seem* the same between the Pro and the standard version except it has a 2 section cabinet (but NO handles ) I guess I'm just worried about their size and that they will sound like a downgrade from the Cornwalls. I guess I could always have the worlds largest surround speakers Rob PS: i shouldn't look at classifieds when i know the TAX man is gonna come knocking...

I've come across a deal on a set of Pro Klipsch Lascala of 1980ish vintage... acceptable shape and pretty inexpensive at just under 1000$cnd. Is this a good price? Ok guys, like many of you, I have bought several heritage speakers over the past years, always looking out for others. As my signature shows, I have setup a 4 channel system that I'm pretty pleased with, but I set out looking for a single or partially working set to build a DIY center. I find this Pro set of Lascala, which are quite a bit Bigger than what I was looking for... what would you do? Will it improve my sound or worsen it given their limited bass extension... Use them as mains, move the Cornwalls as rears, and the Heresys as center and rear? This definitely won't fit... but I could maybe store them till it will. Part them out? I don't have the serial numbers, but they have the AA crossover, K-55V and K-77M, and I believe a K-33-E woofer. I have to decide before the weekend... my girlfriend will KILL me...