Tube amp powerful enough?

[MikeSt]

I had a little tube amp and loved the sound, but I remember it didn't have much oommph for bass. My hk 730 had plenty of bass and was only 30 watts/channel, so can I get the same result from something like a Scott or Fisher tube integrated? I listen to rock so bass is fairly important. I don't want to buy a sub. My speakers are KG4 rated at 94dB @ 1watt/1meter.

[Dennie]

Hey Mike,

Watts are Watts! So, you should be Okay! Tube watts and SS watts are all watts, so if you run a tube amp rated at 30 wpc, you should get similar results to the HK amp. .

Dennie

[33RPM]

The "oomph" will have more to do with your output transformers or coupling capacitors than the fact that you're putting 30W, IMO. 30W on 94dB efficient speakers would equal ear-piercing volumes (for example, 32W into your speakers would give you 109dB). I have a 2 watt SET amp I'm using right now and it has plenty of bass with bookshelf speakers and headphones. The transformers I’m using don’t hit -3dB until 27Hz, which is plenty low.

Amplifier type will also affect bass sound - SET's typically have low damping factors and flabbier bass, whereas push-pull and ultralinear amps will have higher damping factors and tighter, better controlled bass. The two amps you mentioned are almost certainly push-pull, as SET's only put out a handful of watts unless you use output tubes the size of cookie jars as your output stage [] So, you’ll most likely get tight, refined bass, so long as the output transformers don’t start rolling off too high.

[MikeSt]

So, you’ll most likely get tight, refined bass, so long as the output transformers don’t start rolling off too high.

Yeah I'm pretty much looking for bass that shakes your body, These KG4's have big woofer in the back that are perfect for that.

[Hifi jim]

These KG4's have big woofer in the back that are perfect for that.

The woofer in back is actually a passive radiator, meaning it's not actually hooked up to anything and lacks a voice coil and magnet. Its purpose is to dispose the energy created by the dual 8" drivers in front. But yes, those kg4s will pump out some nice bass. I've used both the Harman Kardon HK 730, and a Scott 222c (which I believe is about 22 watts) with my kg4s and both were capable of loud volumes and solid bass.

[MikeSt]

I've used both the Harman Kardon HK 730, and a Scott 222c (which I believe is about 22 watts) with my kg4s and both were capable of loud volumes and solid bass.

That may be what I'll get then if it can slam pretty close to my hk730. I bottom out the bass sometimes when watching movies though, do you think that'll damage the tube amp?

Sometimes I want to push it really hard with music too for extended perioids. Do you think I should just get a more powerful SS amp for that reason? I'd hate to spend that much and break it.

[33RPM]

In my opinion, tube amps are great for wringing out the most detail from your music, and for getting that holographic, "like-you're-there" feeling in your living room. If you want to crank your movies loud, it makes more sense to invest in a much higher wattage SS amp for the same price. Or, get a nice older Marantz (like a 2240, 2270, etc) and you get the vintage sound + enough power to blow out your windows with your GK4's. Tube amps won't "blow" becase you play your music loud, but their power limits WILL limit how loud you can go. Also, there's bound to be more distortion when you have a 22-watt tube amp running at 100% vs. a 100W SS amp at 50W (even though tube distortion is a bit nicer on the ears, being even harmonics vs. odd for SS).Headroom should not be underestimated, especially since movies have such loud peaks. When you hit one of these peaks on a lower-powered amp that's already out of juice, it clips. That's why those of us runnning ridculous SET amps (sometimes putting out only a watt or two per channel) have to stick with 99dB or better speakers to get decent volumes. Turned up all the way, my 2W SET would be as loud through a pair of KHorns as your 30W amp going through your KG4's (105dB +3dB (2W) =108dB; 94dB+3db (2W)+3dB (4W)+3dB (8W)+3dB (16W)+3db (32W)=109dB). So, volume is not all about wattage.

[MikeSt]

Tube amps won't "blow" becase you play your music loud, but their power limits WILL limit how loud you can go. Also, there's bound to be more distortion when you have a 22-watt tube amp running at 100% vs. a 100W SS amp at 50W (even though tube distortion is a bit nicer on the ears

I actually liked the distortion from the tube amp I had before when i turned it all the way up. It was so smooth that it just added more excitment to the punk rock instead of making you want to turn it down like a SS does. If I can get the best of both worlds, tubed-out highs with deep bass I'd be in heaven. It doesn't have to be extemely earth shattering bass though, movies aren't as important as music at all.. I just need to be kicked in the gut by the bass drum like the hk does.

Will more sensitive speaker also give me deeper bass with the same wattage?

[33RPM]

I'd argue that bass has little to do with sensitivity, and much more to do with the physical characteristics of your speaker, and electrical characteristics of your amp. For example, Heresys are 99dB efficient, but likely have worse bass than many ported, low efficiency speakers by the likes of Polk, Paradigm, etc. That's due to the smallish woofer (12") in a sealed (vs. ported or bass-reflex) box. Want deep bass? You need an amp that can provide it (tube amps are almost always transformer coupled, and transformers can/do roll off well before the lowest bass frequencies occur) and a speaker that has either a large mechanical incursion (i.e., can push a lot of air) or a large enclosure. If you had the money, an OTL (output transformer-less) tube amp and some Klipschorns might hit the spot []

Klipsch speakers have the benefit of being very sensitive and running the entire gamut in terms of size - the bigger models have great, deep bass and sensitivities in the 95dB+ range. Your KG4's are probably bested in the bass department by Cornwalls, the larger Forte II's, Klipschorns, and possibly some of the Reference series floorstanders (RF-83, for example). Or, get a sub - while not great for music, IMO, at least it will give you some thump for movies. I wouldn’t recommend the Icon or Synergy series for bass purposes - I've heard both and been underwhelmed. You'd definitely need a sub.

Why not just stick with your KG4's and get a more powerful SS amp? You could run the headphone or pre-amp outputs from one of your tube amps into the SS amp if you want to retain some of that "tube sound" - sort of like a tube/SS hybrid. The SS amp might also have bass extension settings, etc. to get a bit more out of your KG4s, though looking at their specs and size, you're not going to get movie-theatre style bass out of them, no matter what you do.

[NOSValves]

. Turned up all the way, my 2W SET would be as loud through a pair of KHorns as your 30W amp going through your KG4's (105dB +3dB (2W) =108dB; 94dB+3db (2W)+3dB (4W)+3dB (8W)+3dB (16W)+3db (32W)=109dB). So, volume is not all about wattage.

Not trying to start an arguement here but some clarity is in order..... no way can a 2 watt tube amp play music with any kind a pleasing quality at 108db.... In fact the amp would drive you out of the room it would be so objectionable sounding... The math never translates into the real world of playing music and only relates to a single test signal....

But your advise is very good.... if you want to shake the walls with movies and play your music so loud you can feel it. A budget vintage tube amp is not going to cut the mustard. Buy a nice SS amp.

[33RPM]

I agree, actually - the numbers never hold up in real life, and I would definitely not want to hear a 2W tube amp at full power through anything, esp. at 108dB. (2W probably equates to 10-15% THD on a SET using 45's or 6DN7's, which is where the "objectionable" sound would come from, not to mention clipping). Still an interesting concept, nonetheless - especially when you start to compare "average" speakers in the 80-89dB range to Klipsch Heritage series offerings. Polks, for example, seem downright wasteful - most are 88dB 1W/1M.

SS is definitely the way to go for certain things - tubes aren't for everyone! I myself don't even listen to movies through a tube amp - it's like putting black truffles on a McDonald's hamburger.

[The Dude]

what does ss stand for. Just trying to learn more about tube amps.

thanks

nick

[blindman]

SS = Solid State (or transistorized) = the opposite of a vacuum tube (or valve) Hi-Fi amplifier

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_sound

[MikeSt]

A budget vintage tube amp is not going to cut the mustard. Buy a nice SS amp.

Thanks for the advice. Could you recommend a good ss amp to go with my KG4's? I can only spend about $200 right now. I guess I need more than 30wpc since I blew the last two ss amps.

[EVGuy]

Do you already have a pre-amp? If not, then you'll need an integrated amp or a receiver.

[The Dude]

so whats with the 3 watts per a channel seems like some single stage tube amps(did i say that right), like the bottlehead ones are only 3 watts or so per a channel. This really interest me in wanting to try this. I have found some diy pages to build some of these, which i would really like to do for a couple of reason1. being I like building things like this and 2nd I don't have the money to drop several hundred dollars or a couple hundred right off the bat for the moment. So if there is a good 3 watt (or something around that)tubed mono block out that is a good start for a beginner diyer on tubed amps please let me know. Also I like how the wooden ones with the metal tops look with the glowing tubes think it would be neat see a pair of these lighting up. this is one of the reason I've tried to get into mcintoshs and dynacos in the past (which I am still working on cause i want to try everything). but yea sorry for hi jacking the thread for a moment. But any help would be appreciated.

nick

[BE36]

My newbie 2 cents:

Adcom GFA-545 can be had used for a little over $200 and has 120 watts per channel plus. This amp is known for Very Strong & Tight Bass but still having good tube "like" sounds in mids.

Only really big down side like all other SS it does not sound as good at low volumes as it does at high volumes. Tubes can sound pretty good at low volumes.

Do a search on Stereophile.com for their reviews on the Adcom GFA-555, same family of amps, very similiar sound but 200 Watts per channel - very highly reccomended. Adcom just started making it again, $1,000 from a distributor.

I would buy a used GFA-535, 60 watts per channel plus, $100 used, versus a lower quality new amp from someone else for $200.

I have owned 535s, 545s, plus an Adcom GFA-5400 and listened to Argon and Pioneers on my La Scalas.

IMHO for $100 used the GFA-535 is the best value in amps. Has similiar numbers to McIntosh Including, Dynamic Headroom for movies and shaking the walls for a lot less than McIntosh.

I like my McIntosh MC240 better but with the type of bass you are looking for, you would like SS better and it can be had for a lot less and a lot less hassle.

[EVGuy]

For under $500 you can get a Mitsubishi power amp and pre-amp that are real sleepers. Not very popular and not spoken about much but very highy regarded, and great looking too! The DA-A10DC 100wpc or the DA-A15DC 150wpc, along with the DA-P20 or DA-P10 pre-amp. Wonderful to listen to.

[Cal Blacksmith]

My newbie 2 cents:

Adcom GFA-545 can be had used for a little over $200 and has 120 watts per channel plus. This amp is known for Very Strong & Tight Bass but still having good tube "like" sounds in mids.

Only really big down side like all other SS it does not sound as good at low volumes as it does at high volumes. Tubes can sound pretty good at low volumes.

Do a search on Stereophile.com for their reviews on the Adcom GFA-555, same family of amps, very similiar sound but 200 Watts per channel - very highly reccomended. Adcom just started making it again, $1,000 from a distributor.

I would buy a used GFA-535, 60 watts per channel plus, $100 used, versus a lower quality new amp from someone else for $200.

I have owned 535s, 545s, plus an Adcom GFA-5400 and listened to Argon and Pioneers on my La Scalas.

IMHO for $100 used the GFA-535 is the best value in amps. Has similiar numbers to McIntosh Including, Dynamic Headroom for movies and shaking the walls for a lot less than McIntosh.

I like my McIntosh MC240 better but with the type of bass you are looking for, you would like SS better and it can be had for a lot less and a lot less hassle.

I don't think it has been established that he has a PRE-amp yet, I
think he is looking for an intergrated amp or receiver. In that case,
the Yamaha CR series of receivers can sound very nice such as this CR1020 on Ebay

There is also a CR600 there, which is the receiver unit of the CA600 amp that I still have. These units were designed during the "stereo wars" of the '70s and loud rock was the music of choice! I still use my CA600 from time to time and am quite happy with the sound from it.The CR600 (the higher the numer, the higher the power output in watts) only had 40wpc and yet it is amazing that my hearing is still as good as it is!

I don't know what happened to the text, that is not the wa I typed it!!!!!

[MikeSt]

Do you already have a pre-amp? If not, then you'll need an integrated amp or a receiver.

After some research here the old Nakamichi TA-4 sounds like a winner. I'll have to be patient though for one to come up for sale at a good price. From what I read that line of 'stasis' amps are pretty good.