SOUNDJUNKIE Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 ...concerning Exponential horns vs. Tractrix horns? Is there really a difference in the way each of them operates? Is one or t'other the holy grail? ie; off-axis response(best dispersion), smoothness of on-axis response(flatter response), compatability with drivers(Polymer/Phenolic/?), material used in construction(need for damping,...), does size matter(c'mon gals)etc. Now I'm sure this subject has been beaten to death before and shows up on some archive or 2, however, it is difficult to engage in a conversation on a BB with an archive. Besides, we probably all weren't there the first, second or third go around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 WE dont say much it seems (lol). Well I am an exponential Horn fan myself. Trantix just dont seem be be quite there on the vocals in comparison, from what I have heard so far anyway (RF3, KSB 3.1, RF7, KLF 30). Maybe they just needed better amplification - who knows?? ------------------ 2 * Heresy 2 (mains) 2 * Homemade horn speakers (rears) 1 * REL Strata 3 sub Accuphase E211 amp. Tube monoblocks with separate pre-amp (solid state). Marantz CD6000 player Sony NS900 SACD/DVD player Stax Headphones Humax 5400 digital satellite receiver Sharp Video 32" Sony flat screen 16:9 TV Mogami interconnects Silver Synergistic speaker cable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 Junkie---I've used 120 degree radial exponential horns, 90 degree radial exponential horns, conical horns with 130 degree lenses, Smith horns, constant-directivity horns, rectangular tractrix horns, straight exponential horns, diffraction horns and round tractrix horns and I'm here to tell you nothing has sounded as good as my round Edgar "saladbowl" tractrix horns with 1" JBL compression drivers. My opinion. The Edgars make no attempt to control dispersion, Dr. Edgar's theory is to design a horn that does the least harm to the expanding wave and let it shoot where it will and let you sit where it sounds best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOUNDJUNKIE Posted February 26, 2002 Author Share Posted February 26, 2002 What designation does JBL give these? They are efficient and assuming pretty directional? Am I confused in thinking someone else here(mdeneen maybe?) who uses JBL in a homebrew cab? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 Soundjunkie---The horns are made by Dr. Bruce Edgar out in Southern California, the Mt. Olympus of the Horn Universe from which sprang Altec and JBL. :-) They are 550hz tractrix "saladbowls". They are made of maple and carved on a CNC lathe. The drivers are JBL 2470s, the stock phenolic diaphragms have been replaced with aluminum Radians. The horns are rather directional but do a gorgeous job tonally. They also make an outstanding image. Bruce Edgar is responsible for the ressurection of the tractrix horn which was last used by Voight (who first used tractrix) back in the late 30s--early 40s. The engineers at Klipsch (Roy Delgado actually I think) got interested in the tractrix flare after reading Edgar's articles on tractrix in SpeakerBuilder magazine. Edgar makes horns for compression drivers, basshorns, and 2 entirely horn-loaded systems; the Slimline and the no-holds-barred Titan. He is the current Big Kahuna of the horn world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundog Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 The Advantgarde people use bowls, too made from some sort of plastic material that they claim is more uniform than wood but the Edger salad bowls of yours look great to me. Hope to hear them at the Audiofest. I had trouble comparing speakers at the CES/T.H.E. Expo in Vegas. The Advantgarde's sounded too bright (room acoustics? My fatigue?, the wooden bowls there I just cann't remember hearing. I honestly didn't hear anything I liked better overall than my Klipschorns but I'll try to keep an open mind. ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOUNDJUNKIE Posted February 27, 2002 Author Share Posted February 27, 2002 Sorry, I should have been clearer with the questions. I meant the JBL driver designation. I had seen the Edgarhorns on a site somewhere and could not remember where or what they were called. What do you use for LF driver as a good match for them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 Soundjunkie---From 800hz down I use Altec 515B drivers in Altec 825 cabinets--A5s. The 515 is absolutely the finest reproducer of upper bass and lower midrange I've ever heard, everybody should get a chance to hear some. Below 100hz a pair of JBL 4648s augment the A5s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 Tom- I still havent ruled out the trip to Lima...just to say I have BEEN to Lima is worth something(anything)... anyway, it will be a hell of a journey from the East coast of NC (literally), but it might be well worth it. If I had more room, I see myself trying some other horn alternatives. At one time, I was going to be redoing the Sierra-Brooks website and getting a pair of their wooden horns. That fell through but I still am interested in a system, possibly with some of Edgar's designs with some JBLs and Altec drivers and cabinets below. I just dont have the room here unless the bass cabinets are the size of Cornwalls or less. At one time, I was considering the Oris 150 or 200 with the Onken bass enclosure since I could get these units at great discount. One thing that worried me about the Oris horns (and others of similar ilk) was the extremely narrow sweet spot emparting the virtual head in vise approach to the listening position. Based on some of your comments pertaining to the Edgar Salad Bowls, I was wondering how pronounced is this aspect? kh This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 02-27-2002 at 08:52 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 Mobile----You could use the Cornwalls as a base for bass, use the woofers and enclosures but explore alternatives for frequencies above the woofer. The Edgars have narrower dispersion than most of the horns I've used but they just sound so Goddam good toneally that it just doesn't matter. In any case they have adequate dispersion for my needs and my room. And by the time you get 10 or 12 feet back from them they blend seamlessly and excellent stereo is evident far off-axis. That Oris with that dinky 10" Vifa woofer (despite the "Onken" designation, actually as far as I know Onken only designed cabinets for their own woofers and for Altec 416s and 414s, the Onken cabinets were takeoffs on old Jensen designs) doesn't make sense to me. No way that 10"er is gonna have the same dynamics and low distortion as the horn, nor of your Cornwalls. Now the Orises with your CWs, that might be something, yes indeed. Lima is in very historic country, the greatest Indian war The United States ever fought saw lots of action in the area. The greatest defeat The United States ever suffered from Indians, The Battle of The Wabash (or St. Clair's Disiaster) in which about 900 American soldiers were killed was fought not far from Lima. Also near Lima the famous Kentuckian Simon Kenton ran a Shawnee gauntlet about a quarter of a mile long. On the way up stop and see the huge Air Force museum in Dayton, the place is awesome. They even have a B-36 and the little Goblin jet fighter designed to be carried by it. And Bock's Car, the Nagasaki B-29. You know, North Carolina claims "first in flight" on it's plates but the fellas that did it were from Dayton. :-) This message has been edited by TBrennan on 02-27-2002 at 09:38 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Bey Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 Isn't Lima the place they named the bean after? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 Tom, I am going to be keeping my eye out for some alternatives in the horn department with or without a CW as bass (stiffened probably, if not just to keep Warren from getting bent outta shape). Hopefully, if I can make it to Lima, I will get a good idea as to what I prefer, horn-wise. I see you are making an appearance with a seminar - bringing your own? Ole Mike is bringing his Sierra-Brooks horns with his cabinets as well. Should be an interesting time. Obviously, Bruce cant be missed. As for the historic aspects, that is quite an assortment of happenings nearby. I happened to be at the Wright Bros. Memorial at Kitty Hawk two days ago, believe it or not. I have not spent much time in Ohio but have been all over the country. If I come up that way again, I'll have to take some side trips. One thing you might find interesting; I got to fly in one of the last 10 remaining B-17s still flying back in 92. Flew with the vintage planes in the air show and took the top turret and the belly turret. It is an experience I'll never forget. The next year, I went up in a B-25 that sparred with a P-51 Mustang for the show. Seeing that P-51 roll away from formation with that B-25 gave me chills, as did flying in both of those beasts. I rank those two flights right up there as life changing perspectives; not too many get a chance to fly in either, but the B-17 was especially meaningful. I had always idolized that plane as a kid. Had tears in my eyes as that beast cleared the ground! I wonder if I'll have tears upon hearing ole Bruce's system? heh... kh This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 03-01-2002 at 10:33 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOUNDJUNKIE Posted February 28, 2002 Author Share Posted February 28, 2002 Mobile, I'm glad you mentioned the Sierra's. I happened across them last night during my internet search for info on Edgarhorns. No luck with that effort yet but the Sierra's look really nice. Have you heard them guys? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 Mobile---Oh, Mike Baker just wants me to give a little talk on horns, nothing so grand as a seminar. I'll be bringing my 605As. Some of the guys in the club want me to bring my big VOT-JBL-Edgar rig but that's too much work. Besides lots of people have heard of the Altec DuPlexes but probably not heard them, I'd like people to hear just how good a simple rig like a pair of 605s can sound. For an amp I'll bring my Fisher SA-100 and run a CD player right into it. Maybe I'll bring the Thorens too, I'm sure I can scrounge up a phono preamp. That B-17 ride sounds like quite an experience, I'm green with envy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOUNDJUNKIE Posted March 1, 2002 Author Share Posted March 1, 2002 Tom, what do you do above 12kHz? I ran across your homepage, looking good, but I didn't see your 2470's w/saladbowls there. We tried the link for Bruce Edgar and it appears we need NORAD type security clearance to access the page, LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 Mobile homeless... next time you fly in a B-17, sit in the bombardiers seat in the nose while landing... the greater visibility bumps the experience from Legend slam to K-horn crescendo! What was the name of the B-17 you flew in? I was the person who created the worldwide database that logs all flying, non-flying, hulks and assorted parts for the association of B-17 owners. You will be happy to know that at last count there where more than ten B-17's flying. If you are ever near Fort Worth, Texas, stop in at the Vintage Flying Museum (nine acres of hangers adjacent to Meacham Airport... It's one of the finest volunteer museums in the country and it was my joy to help them grow that way. Their B-17 "Chuckie" is the last of the Pathfinders... super secret B-17's equipped with radar that would lead the final approach leg of a bomb run... and the rest of the B-17's would use the Pathfinder's bomb explosions as their target. It's a little known fact but Tom Landry, famed Dallas Cowboys Head Coach, was a B-17 pilot in WWII and we became friends when he was in a commercial using B-17 "Chuckie" for a prop. Tom was one of the finest people I have ever known, bar none. Another highly regarded friend and former client from Texas is Travis Hoover, he was second in command on the "30 Seconds over Tokyo" raid. Now that you have ridden in a B-25, you can imagine what it was like to take off the deck of a carrier at sea... with, most likely, no place to land. I asked Travis why he would volunteer for such a mission. He replied, "Now that you mention it Ed, I think I was too young to know any better." He was only 19 when he flew the mission, made a soft crash landing in the surf off a China beach and walked his men safely across China to where they caught a C-47 ride "over the hump" to relative safety. A lot of other crews were not so fortunate. Well, back to the safety of fighting the tube vs. SS wars... HornEd This message has been edited by HornEd on 03-01-2002 at 05:17 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 I can only imagine flying in the tailgunner of a B52. Those things are MONSTERS. Worked at a sheetmetal fab shop once, at the end of a local small aiport runway. Seen a pair of B17's take off together from there. The little airport has a airshow from time to time, it's always fun. They are awesome to just watch fly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 Mike, Doc Hospers (an orthopedic surgeon with an audiophile ear) bought a B-17 that was headed for the scrapyard... without telling his wife. He had "Chuckie" his wife's nickname painted on the nose first! When the famous B-17 "Memphis Belle" memorial was dedicated some years ago, "Chuckie" led four other B-17's on a "bomb run" over the memorial and dropped a bombbay load of flowers right on top of the crowd using the Norden Bomb Sight on a sunny day. Even Doc had to admit he got lucky on that one. Oh, well, back to loudspeakers... I picked up a Walnut Academy for $400 today on Ebay. Just wanted to hear what one would sound like... I may use it as a rear effects speaker in the new music room. The bidding started at $300 and the photos looked pretty good so I took a chance. It is a lot easier to replace $100 than it is to find a good Academy these days. Hmmm, maybe it's time I gave BobG a break and went back to buying some of the new stuff. HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldMojo Posted March 11, 2002 Share Posted March 11, 2002 TBrennan, your comments make me wonder - are you originally from Dayton? You're right though - Dayton is fiercely protective of its Wright heritage, and the state gov't has jumped on board as well. Our upcoming quarter is supposed to be very similar to NC's, our plates (tags) proclaim "Birthplace of Aviation" It all kinda says "In your face NC!" Seriously though, Mobile, if you're into WWII aircraft, you better just set aside a couple of days for the Museum. All the USAAF biggies are there: B17, B24, B25, B26, P39, P40, P47, P51, F86 as well as some cool foreign stuff: Me262, Okha suicide bomb, FW 190 and most recently an Me163 Komet. While the NASM in DC has more planes, the USAF Museum has more planes actually on display than anywhere. The actual Wright Flyer III (not a replica) is on display at Carillon Park downtown near the Univ. of Dayton. The National Park Service operates the original Wright Bicycle Shop, but it's kind of in the 'hood - not really that bad though. There's my cheerleading bit, the rest I leave in the capable hands of the visitors' bureau ------------------ We Like our speakers big & heavy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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