greg928gts Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 If I had the time, I would make a list of each of the programmed changes used in the EV DX38 program for the two-way Jubilee with the K69driver, then I would plot them out in a 1/3-octave EQ type of graph. My memory tells me there was quite a bit of boost involved when I hand-programmed my DX38. In other Jubilee discussions, I've heard others say that the K402/K69 would be lacking in high frequencies without the EQ settings. As to the TAD driver, I might do that someday. I have a 4002 and a 4003. But I'm more inclined to keep the Jubs stock and play around with other toys. In the end it doesn't really matter what I do to the Jubs, they just don't look good in my living room, so it just seems like a waste of time trying to make them sound better. I regret that I don't have a listening room for them. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 If I had the time, I would make a list of each of the programmed changes used in the EV DX38 program for the two-way Jubilee with the K69driver, then I would plot them out in a 1/3-octave EQ type of graph. My memory tells me there was quite a bit of boost involved when I hand-programmed my DX38. In other Jubilee discussions, I've heard others say that the K402/K69 would be lacking in high frequencies without the EQ settings. The Dx38 settings for the Jubilee are pretty complex, both LF and HF, and I think it would be hard to approximate them with a graphic EQ, especially the shelving filters. The various bandwidths of the PEQs make the corrections really precise, too.To me, the K402/K-69 (or in my case K510/K-69) and the Dx38 are kind of a matched team that are set up to work best together, so I don't see active EQ as a necessary evil, but as the way Roy designed things to be. The later (September 2008) Dx settings made for a really good and natural-sounding very high frequency response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 The Dx38 settings for the Jubilee are pretty complex, both LF and HF, and I think it would be hard to approximate them with a graphic EQ, especially the shelving filters. The various bandwidths of the PEQs make the corrections really precise, too. I agree, it would be tough to get it exact. But it might help for one to "see" the manipulation done to the signal and differentiate between subtlety and taking the treble control on a Pioneer receiver and cranking it up 12db. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Hey I understand about the time issue Greg. When/If you do look at the program notice the shelve filters because that is were the reductions are. If you are familiar with the EV race program you can input the info and visually see that in reality there is a necessary reduction in drive to the K402/K69A except at the very top end. Are you saying you have the TAD TD4002? If so please take the time to try that on the K402. I honestly believe you will be pleasently surprised. Man of all people you should to be able to make the Jubs beautiful! mike tn[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Man of all people you should to be able to make the Jubs beautiful![Y][Y][Y]I know these are just Photoshop mockups, but I'm surprised than not even one of the increasing number of Jubilee owners has tried something like this. Kudret's working on some kind of K402 enclosure, so maybe this will give him an idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 I'm busy now trying to finish my Jub project but here is a couple of shots of were I'm at on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Few things to still complete but I'm getting there. Also the camera flash makes the brown of the K402 section appear lighter than it is to the naked eye. mike tn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Looking good! Keep us up to date. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 My memory tells me there was quite a bit of boost involved when I hand-programmed my DX38 Here's the paramaters we're using for the K69. I do not know if this is defined as quite a bit or a little. At least we have a reference point to make that conversation. Most of what I see are decreases? I only see increases at: 2.6K at 3db's 14.8K at 6 db's (this is the HISLV and I have ZERO idea what that means) Maybe someone can explain it more? (Mike??) I don't know if we 'count' the HISLV, if we do then there are two items of boost. If we do not count it, then we only have one item of HF boost. I'm wondering if you had the correct values if you thought there was quite a bit of boosting? DX-38_settings_for_Jubilee_with_K402_&_K69.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Hope this plot comes out viewable. Greg here is the race plot of the electrical signal output of the EV DX38 using Roy's orginal program for the Jub/K402/K69A. You will notice a maximum reduction of approx. (-11db) at approx. 1.5khz but the overall reduction in drive runs from around 500Hz to 4kHz. Only close to 15kHz is there an effective boost slope peaking around +5db by approx. 18kHz which is about the limit of the K69A. mike tn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 oops... missed the 2 db boost at 5.6K [:$] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 I don't know if we 'count' the HISLV, if we do then there are two items of boost. If we do not count it, then we only have one item of HF boost. I'm wondering if you had the correct values if you thought there was quite a bit of boosting? To just look at the individual filter settings can be misleading and hard to comprehend the true electrical drive going to the amplifiers. It's best to look at the total effect of all filters(like the race plot I posted) to get a real understanding of what is being accomplished. mike tn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Hey Qman, do you have pics of your HF tops and the cabinet you've got them mounted in? One of the things that has always bothered me about those Altec designs is how the horn mounts to the baffle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 I'm busy now trying to finish my Jub project but here is a couple of shots of were I'm at on them. Nice. They are looking much more refined. I've thought about making mine pretty. Maybe someday. The first thing I would do it take the damn flange off the K402. I'm surprised nobody has done that yet. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Here's the basic (no Q for clarity) Crown Xti settings. The picture is just the high frequency EQ settings. Low frequency 108Hz -6db 180Hz -6db 300Hz -6db 370Hz +2db High frequency - from the crossover point of 500Hz to 20Khz Low shelf filter at 2.5Khz -8db Hi shelf filter at 10Khz +5db That's a 13db difference between the bottom half of the horn and the top. Even just looking at the 5db boost from 10K and up is not insignificant or subtle. 1Khz -1db 1.48Khz -5db 2.3Khz -2db 3.5Khz -4db 5.32Khz +3.5db 12Khz -7db I see a 15db difference in the EQ curve in the top horn. So maybe using the word "boost" is not correct, but "severe manipulation" of the frequencies is, in my mind, accurate. From an audiophile's perspective, it's far from what I desire in my living room system. Now, in my shop, the MCM system gets similar manipulation, as do most PA systems and commercial installations everywhere. The tools used to manipulate the signal to tailor commercial systems to movie theaters, nightclubs, outdoor venues, etc... are very useful and necessary. I just don't want them in my audiophile system at home. The two-way Jubilee, with the associated electronics needed to make it sound right, to me, is both impressive and disappointing. I can audition them and really knock people's socks off. Uncontrollable smiling. But living with them in my audiophile, living room system, is too difficult. I can't get around the extra stuff. With the upgrades I now have in my Khorns, I find myself drawn back to that sound, with the very simple signal chain - CD- Amp - Speaker. I can listen to my Khorns at lower volumes (95db - 100db) all night. With the Jubilees, I find myself always wanting to turn them up louder and louder, which tells me I'm not satisfied with the overall quality of the sound, and to get something out of my listening sessions, I end up going for the impact that they can certainly deliver. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 My mistake, thought these were home brew. Earlier post corrected. [:$] I guess I don't know the engineer very well either, I won't pretend to speak for him. M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Here's the basic (no Q for clarity) Crown Xti settings. I see a 15db difference in the EQ curve in the top horn. So maybe using the word "boost" is not correct, but "severe manipulation" of the frequencies is, in my mind, accurate. From an audiophile's perspective, it's far from what I desire in my living room system...The tools used to manipulate the signal to tailor commercial systems to movie theaters, nightclubs, outdoor venues, etc... are very useful and necessary. I just don't want them in my audiophile system at home. The two-way Jubilee, with the associated electronics needed to make it sound right, to me, is both impressive and disappointing. I can audition them and really knock people's socks off. Uncontrollable smiling. But living with them in my audiophile, living room system, is too difficult. I can't get around the extra stuff. With the upgrades I now have in my Khorns, I find myself drawn back to that sound, with the very simple signal chain - CD- Amp - Speaker. I can listen to my Khorns at lower volumes (95db - 100db) all night. With the Jubilees, I find myself always wanting to turn them up louder and louder, which tells me I'm not satisfied with the overall quality of the sound, and to get something out of my listening sessions, I end up going for the impact that they can certainly deliver. Greg My Bose Wave Radio sounds really good at low volumes, too...amazing, really. [8-)]Those are interesting measures of merit, Greg. Personally, I would tend to use my ears in this type of situation. I guess I have to say that I've never heard a better set of speakers (low volume or high), but that's just my opinion. BTW, 100 dB © (slow response) is actually pretty loud around my stomping grounds. I am waiting to upgrade to TAD TD-4002s soon (...the lead time on these drivers is looong...) since they have better properties in terms of freedom from ringing but I'm still smiling with the K-69As, at low volumes or high. I found that my initial choice of XTi's to drive the Jubs was not the best choice, but that was very easily remedied (now using Dx38 and D-75As). The sound stage and detail are pretty spectacular, IMHO, better than anything else I've heard to date in a home environ. I'm wondering if the TD-4002s will make that much difference, but that is the disease that we all tend to have here, isn't it? I.e., "what if?". Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 I'm wondering if the TD-4002s will make that much difference, but that is the disease that we all tend to have here, isn't it? I.e., "what if?". I'm sure they will make a difference, they are a much higher quality driver. LOL, yes it is a disease. BTW, I tried the Xti's at first, but soon switched over to the DX38, and it was much better sounding with the various amps I've got around here. Then I tried passive networks and really liked the familiarity and how the speakers just seemed to blend much better. One thing I'd like to try is biamping, using the same amplifier for the low and high, maybe class T amps. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 BTW, I tried the Xti's at first, but soon switched over to the DX38, and it was much better sounding with the various amps I've got around here. Then I tried passive networks and really liked the familiarity and how the speakers just seemed to blend much better. One thing I'd like to try is biamping, using the same amplifier for the low and high, maybe class T amps. Greg I like to hear your experiences with different power amps or even preamps with these units. That's a subject that is under-reported here. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 To just look at the individual filter settings can be misleading and hard to comprehend the true electrical drive going to the amplifiers. It's best to look at the total effect of all filters(like the race plot I posted) to get a real understanding of what is being accomplished Well... you know how much of this electronic voo-doo I understand! [Y] I thought ....well....never mind what I thought, I'm evidently showcasing how much I don't know and how much I need to keep my fingers still! [:#] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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