MikeW Posted March 5, 2002 Share Posted March 5, 2002 JimG, I read a posting that was made in July of last year stating that Klipsch used ARCAM for product development. The Topic: Arkam vs. Marantz for RF3's was posted in the 2 Channel Audio forum on July 20, 2001. Why did Klipsch decide to use ARCAM products? Also, are you able recommend a particular ARCAM product(s) that appeared to be well suited to the Klipsch line of speakers? MikeW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimG Posted March 6, 2002 Share Posted March 6, 2002 When I was hired here in 1999, Klipsch had some outdated gear in the listening room in Indy that I wanted to replace. Being fresh from retail, I had a short list of things I thought would work well. I was (and still am) a fan of Arcam products, particularly, the FMJ range. Since the US distributor for Arcam is also in Indy (near my home), I arranged to have several models brought over so we could do some listening and see what we thought. Ultimately, everyone really liked the sound of the Arcam products so we purchased several of them. Unfortunately, they don't see much use anymore since we acquired Mondial. We do still use the Arcam source units though. In fact, we used our Arcam DV27 DVD player in our booth at CES this year as the source unit for the new Aragon Stage One / 2007 system. Klipsch currently has two Arcam amplifiers on hand that sound very good with our speakers. The A22/DAVE is a two channel integrated surround processor loaded up with Dolby Digital and DTS and all that stuff, as well as a pair of 100 watt amplifiers. It retails for $3600/US. You can get it without the surround stuff on it as just a really nice integrated amp for $1999/US. We also own a P25/PAM amplifier, which is three by 100 watts, and the obvious companion to the A22/DAVE. The P25/PAM is $1899/US and is also available with just two channels as the P25 for $1399/US. The Arcam FMJ products are very good indeed, however, you REALLY want to buy one of the new Aragon amplifiers...right!?! Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted March 6, 2002 Share Posted March 6, 2002 I have always thought ARCAM CD players to be a very good value and almost bought the 8se. They are very open sounding. The amps are ok as well and their integrateds offer good bang for bux. Jim is right about the FMJ series being quite nice; on the other hand, it is getting a bit far from what ARCAM used to do best which was nice sound for not so many ducats. The FMJ is surely much better built then the regular series of amps and CD players and far less plastic looking obviously (except the Cd players are almost exactly the same with the cheaper case and less $$$). What I really find troubling is Klipsch's almost complete lack of interest in tube products. This makes no sense to me seeing as how their high senstivity and easy load (depending on model) are a perfect companion for various levels of tube amplification. Indeed, after hearing various Klipsch speakers, I would say that tube amplification actually brings out the best these speakers have to offer. Klipsch is surely a more consumer oriented company and decided to go the dollar route long ago. I think they have made a strong effort to get back in line sonically but not sure on the direction. Aragon made some fine sounding amplifiers for non horn speakers but partnered to horns, I have to wonder about the pairing. The old 4004 was a beast of an amp and very good at driving difficult loads. It also would work wonders on a sub or bottom end. But to mate these solid state beasts to the top strikes me as not the most ideal match. I know some new amps will come forth. Wondering about the sonics of these. I had a 4004 for a time and I cant imagine it with horns, even of the modern bent. Jim, why does Klipsch (as far as I know), show absolutely no interest in tube amplification, especially considering the role that tubes played in their heritage (no pun intended but will go with it)? kh Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 03-06-2002 at 05:57 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted March 6, 2002 Share Posted March 6, 2002 Mobile, Thanks for mentioning the subject of tubes and Klipsch speakers. A saleman at a very high end tube shop in Walnut Creek, CA recently related a story to me that many years ago, when they carried Klipsch speakers, Paul Klipsch himself showed up with one of his Sales Managers and proceeded to explain to the younger man how Klipsch speakers were designed to perform very well with the tube products sold within that store and that that was how the Kilpsch, now Heritage, line of speakers should be demoed to customers. What say ye Klipsch rep? Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted March 6, 2002 Share Posted March 6, 2002 I shouldn't go here, but... If you folks plan on to continue the Heritage lines, wouldn't it make sense to test/audition with Tube gear? We all know that Paul didn't have much Solid State to work with in '47. I've read post after post of people crossing over to Valves from Solid State with Heritage speakers, always seems the same, they prefer Tube Amplification. There is a few exceptions, but not enough to really offset anything. I'm sure you folks read these Forums for Consumer Feedback, this point above is obvious in the two channel Forum. I understand it's all about HT nowdays, and the Heritage market would be, or is a very small ***** in the Scheme of Klipsch. But why not kick in, get some Tube Amplification? It doesn't have to be pretty, just functional, and test Heritage lines with them. Doesn't this seem to make sense? If the lines are going to be continued, I would think it makes sense. (Of course, it may not be practical.) THANX! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimG Posted March 7, 2002 Share Posted March 7, 2002 We by no means ignore tube amps. Yes they certainly can match up well with Heritage series speakers as you all know. In fact, we actually do use tube amplification occasionally when developing speakers. We own a pair of low powered tube amps that came from a now defunct manufacturer - they were never sold in the US. As far as the majority of testing goes however, we tend to use mostly solid state amplifiers. Good SS amps also can match up very well with upper-end Reference and Heritage speakers. In fact, the Aragon 8000 series amps sound wonderful on a pair of RF-7's or RF-5's. In addition to the obvious brand of amps that get used here for development, we use a wide variety of products during development so that we can get a real world sampling of how our speakers will perform in people's homes. That means everything from a $300 Yamaha receiver to a pair of $6000 Aragon monoblocks to a Crown or QSC professional amp. You have to take into account that in the majority of cases, with the majority of our products, the end user is going to have some form of solid state amp running them. There are very few tube brands that make any sort of impact in the retail sales world these days. The list isn't much bigger than a few names like Cary, AR, Sonic Frontiers and maybe one or two others. However, in the hobbyist world, tubes are still a cool way to go and continue to be something that the average guy can put together himself and have some fun experimenting with his system. In the end, that's what it's all about and I certainly encourage everyone to keep their ears and minds open to experimentation to find what works best for them. It's audio and there is really no right answer - just plenty of opinions. Hope I kind of answered your questions. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted March 7, 2002 Share Posted March 7, 2002 Jim, Thanks for taking the time to respond. I certainly understand the requirement to address the mass market of consumers. When it come to the Heritage line, I think the mass market philosphy is not as appropriate, but that's just my humble opinion. So, the next inevitable question is .............. What is the status of resuming Heritage production? I'd like to know that one day, when I get to build my new home, I can order a new pair of Belles or Khorns. I currently own a pair of 1974 Belles, 1983 Cornwalls, and 1982 Heresys. Non Heritage speakers also live within my household but mostly for HT uses. I've told my 13 yr old son to never sell the Heritage speakers unless the threat of starvation exist. So, What's Up? Inquiring minds want to know! Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin S Posted March 7, 2002 Share Posted March 7, 2002 When PWK made the statement along the lines of "what the world needs is a good 5 watt amplifier" hadn't he lived thru the original era of low wattage, single ended tube amplifiers that are now the rage? If they were (or are) so perfect for his loudspeakers, why was he still looking for a "good" 5 watter? I suspect that PWK would have been more concerned with the bandwidth, frequency response and most importantly, distortion characterisitics of the amp than whether it was tube or solid state. But this is just my guess, as I have never found any mention of tube vs. solid state preferences in any of the literature from or about PWK that I have available. Perhaps someone else has. ------------------ L/C/R: Klipsch Heresy II Surround: Klipsch RS-3 Subwoofers: 2 HSU-VTF-2 Pre/Pro/Tuner: McIntosh MX-132 AMP: McIntosh MC-7205 DVD: McIntosh MVP-831 CD Transport: Bang & Olufsen Beosound 9000 Turntable: Denon DP-72L Cassette: Nakamichi BX-1 T.V. : Mitsubishi 55905 SAT/HDTV: RCA DTC-100 Surge Protector: Monster Power HTS-5000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted March 7, 2002 Share Posted March 7, 2002 This kind of response almost seems alien in here now. Strange. Kevin, are you familiar with the different types of distortion (even and odd order / how the human ear-brain reacts to this)as well as why many SS amps measure so well? Are you aware of the roll that Negative Feedback plays in reducing the distortion specs in amplifiers and also some of the negatives that this negative feedback can bring when used to bring vanishingly low distortion figures? Also, have you looked at the clipping characteristics of solid state amplifiers vs tube amps, and more specifially single-ended tube amps? Have you looked into the operation of high power solid state amplifiers in the 1w range? And finally, have you heard a good tube amplifier of any kind in your home? I find that 95% of the people that make claims like the above have never really heard quality tube amps, and if so, usually briefly at the local AudioHut. kh Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 03-07-2002 at 06:14 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin S Posted March 7, 2002 Share Posted March 7, 2002 Ahh Mobile. So nice to hear from you again. I believe my question was why PWK was still looking for a "good 5 watt amp" when he had plenty of low wattage tube amps available to him. My question was not "please all knowing Mobile, tell me why I should like tube amps". If you happen to know why PWK said that, and if you know if he preferred tubes over solid state, or vice versa, and why, let us know. FWIW, I am familiar with all of the issues you mentioned and I have owned tube amps. PS. I am leaving my signature on this post because Mobile loves it when I do that! ------------------ L/C/R: Klipsch Heresy II Surround: Klipsch RS-3 Subwoofers: 2 HSU-VTF-2 Pre/Pro/Tuner: McIntosh MX-132 AMP: McIntosh MC-7205 DVD: McIntosh MVP-831 CD Transport: Bang & Olufsen Beosound 9000 Turntable: Denon DP-72L Cassette: Nakamichi BX-1 T.V. : Mitsubishi 55905 SAT/HDTV: RCA DTC-100 Surge Protector: Monster Power HTS-5000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted March 7, 2002 Share Posted March 7, 2002 That that I dont believe you per say, but I have NEVER heard anyone that was familiar with and owned many tube amps to state your above question in that way, especially considering the comment about the distortion measurements which have almost literally been even dropped by the mainstream audio world as people, engineers included, are finding new ways to interpret these measurements. Can I inquire as to what tube amps you have owned? I think I would disagree with your statement concerning Paul Klipsch; hopefully, he would be a might be more aware of things besides vanishly low distortion specs, something that can be achieved with ROTTEN sound intact. kh ------------------ Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin S Posted March 7, 2002 Share Posted March 7, 2002 Sorry Mobile, but I have no intention of getting into the "my equipment is/was better than your equipment" trap with you. You asked if I had ever owned tube amps, and I have. They were paired up with Klipschorns. There was nothing wrong with the way they sounded. Nothing magical either. I cannot presume to speak for PWK's feelings about amplifiers, but he built his whole line up of speakers around the idea of exceptionally low measured distortion, resulting from their extreme efficiency. I cannot believe that a man who spent his life trying to eliminate measured distortion from his speakers would then be happy hooking them up to an amplifier that produced higher measured distortion than the speakers themselves. Many amplifiers, especially but not exclusively tube based, do exactly that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted March 7, 2002 Share Posted March 7, 2002 Who is talking about a my equipment is better that yours debate??? I was simply asking what tube amps you owned. And based on that last comment concerning distortion, I would highly advise doing some studying on the use of negative feedback and how EASY as pie it is to get LOW distortion readings with BAD sound. Low distortion figures are not always indicative of sound quality. I cant believe that anyone these days STILL shops for amplifiers using distortion figures as the main criteria. IF that were the case, one could go into Circuit City, ala Sony land, and buy low distortion to their hearts content, and come way with amplifiers that were as musical as two Gibbons banging some prized All-Clad MAster Chef 2 quart sauciers together to the tune of a FAtty Arbuckle number... kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin S Posted March 7, 2002 Share Posted March 7, 2002 Mobile, I am not going to be lured into a discussion of what amps sound like, or don't sound, like with you. I think we both know from previous posts that we do not agree on those issues. No need to re-cover that ground. I was simply speculating as to what PWK's thoughts on the issue might be based on information I have read that was written by the man. Also, in the future, please do not feel the need to advise me on what to "study" in relation to my opinions on audio. Some people on this board value your opinion and frequently ask for your guidance. I think you will find that I have never been one of them. ------------------ L/C/R: Klipsch Heresy II Surround: Klipsch RS-3 Subwoofers: 2 HSU-VTF-2 Pre/Pro/Tuner: McIntosh MX-132 AMP: McIntosh MC-7205 DVD: McIntosh MVP-831 CD Transport: Bang & Olufsen Beosound 9000 Turntable: Denon DP-72L Cassette: Nakamichi BX-1 T.V. : Mitsubishi 55905 SAT/HDTV: RCA DTC-100 Surge Protector: Monster Power HTS-5000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted March 7, 2002 Share Posted March 7, 2002 Indeed. You have been closed off since day one. Also, from what it appears, a sense of humor is not high on the list. Perhaps that goes with decreasing distortion. Apparently, you seem to be about .009% at full power... kh This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 03-07-2002 at 11:14 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeW Posted March 8, 2002 Author Share Posted March 8, 2002 JimG, Thanks for your response. I think product development is not your only forte, your response was also GOOD SERVICE. I appreciate your advice on a nonKlipsch product and to me this is good service on your part. And I will always pay good money for excellent service. When the time comes, when my better half says "YES", I will audition Mondial products. Aragon, at the moment, is way out of my league and I don't believe there is Mondial supplier in Edmonton, yet!! One thing I do like about ARCAM is the upgrade features of the A22 and P25. ARCAM A22 and P25, will allow me to enjoy stereo music today and the opportunity to upgrade in the future for Home Theatre (adding Dave and another channel). JimG, if Klipsch is willing and able and the ARCAM components are just lazing around collecting dust.... maybe you would be interested in parting with them to a friendly Canuck? (I had to try) Thanks Again, MikeW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynnm Posted March 8, 2002 Share Posted March 8, 2002 COOL A pissing contest and I win by default because I have/love/use both solid state and tube components!! This whole tube vs. Solid State thing has devolved into a religious issue with various Messiahs on both sides. Presumably those of us who use one technology or another are beyond the pale according to the purists. Those of us who use both technologies presumably are audio whores who will listen to Anything that sounds good regardless of its theological root! GOD I feel like such a Houri - ***** - Strumpet as I listen to my polluted system! Screw This!! I am going back to 8-Tracks and MiniDiscs! ------------------ It is meet to recall that the Great Green Heron rarely flies upside down in the moonlight - (Foo Ling ca.1900) This message has been edited by lynnm on 03-08-2002 at 12:55 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted March 8, 2002 Share Posted March 8, 2002 I've been listening to a solid state amplifier mated to a tube preamp the past few days on and off. It's Class A, Zero Global Feedback, and only 25w per channel. Who's talking about a pissing contest? Besides, I liked the Fatty Arbuckle and Gibbon line. That would have floated in other places. Here, it sank like a stone in a shallow lake. Crickets.... Pissing contest? I hate that phrase... Besides inaccurate in this case, it reminds me of my German Sheperd Collie Mix mutant hound I had as a tyke. Poor fiend never got wise to SchoolBus moves. kh This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 03-08-2002 at 04:03 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimG Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 In response to jazman, Heritage products will be back very soon. The Klipschorn, LaScala and Belle are finished and targeted for mid-April production. I really can't divulge any more details than that right now. Keep an eye on our web site as details will be posted in the April version of the site. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 Ready for the Tube amp of your choice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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