My HF-81 the good and the bad

[NOSValves]

Mdeneen

I'm a little lost who is Manuel??

Got the Bridge in the 222C and it puts me at -61 at the Bridge before the Electrolytic or Resistors. I figure a 51 ohm should get me close. I'm going now to search for some here local from mid 40s to 60, so we can play with that voltage. I measured the 12AX7s and they were getting about -9 each as it was. Most of the other schematics from Scott that show this neg. value it is around -44 -47 after it leaves the capacitors and resistors. Of coarse the 222c schem. doesn't show us the value.

Craig

[NOSValves]

Mike

Not sure what Tanna offered for the HF-12s. But I've received 3 service manuals for my stuff from them and 2 of the 3 were real nice well worth the money if you can't get this Info elsewhere for free. Stay away from Sams directly from Sams website they suck done real cheap. I bought one and was real disappointed.

Craig

[Mike Lindsey]

Mark,

Holsten is Kelly Holsten (ala mobile). BTW, hope to get an email back out to you later today...

Mike

[mobile homeless]

The EICO HF-81 sounds an order of MAGNITUDE better than the Dynaco SCA-35. No comparison. I have heard both of these units side by side. In every area, the HF-81 bests the Dynaco; soundstaging, frequency extension, transparency, and detail. They are very different circuits actually and if you search in here I do a direct A vs B comparison with the two. The EICO is simply a better circuit even given the wiring. The ST-35 is a much better piece than the SCA-35 though. And usually goes for much more. PRoblem? That link is an SCA-35.... BIG DIFFERENCE.

To compare the EICO with the LEAK amplifers is APPLES TO ORANGES. They are FAMOUS for their wiring as they use loams and are KNOWN for their layout and meticulous construction. The British tube equipment of the day all like that. A good example of a LEAK amplifier brings from 650-1200 US dollars. nice loading of the comparison.

I will take that EICO, rats nest and all (look at the last page of the construction manual - see the drawing of the layout? Yea. Take a look), against the Scott 222, 229, Fisher, and even McIntosh integrateds.... I have heard them all, and the EICO sounds better to me. Ditto to my buddy across town who actually still owns an example of each of the makes (besides McIntosh) and the EICO wins out in sonics. Ditto to most of the people I talk to.

And just to make the point clear, I have been messing with this amp for awhile now. I get over 100 inquiries a year and over 20 people have bought this amp with consultation from me (not to mention Roger Stevens). And I dont know of ANYONE that has taken their amp and thrown the entire workings into a dustpan! Almost everyone has swapped out parts, many more defeated the balance (focus), bypassed the tone controls, made a headphone output, bypassed switches, put better caps etc, replaced some of the resistors etc. But the idea of gutting the entire amp is done by VERY VERY few. Actually NO ONE that I have talked to has done this. And plenty of people still use this as their MAIN amplifier, replacing Conrad JOhnson, Audio Research, Bryston, ETc, the list goes on. I get email from them all the time. The only amps I have seen people replace the EICO with have been SET amplification, something that many refuse to even acknowledge. Of course, there are many fine sounding vintage amps, but this is a special piece.

Frankly, I am tired of this type of exchange. I have been on many, many forums and have never had this kind of direct rancor from someone. It makes me not even want to open these threads anymore. It is childish and actually a distortion of the truth. To make the new tube contingent think that in order to do a vintage piece of this nature they need to brandish tons of text equipment and totally SCRAP the insides of these pieces, leaving the entire works in garbage...well, it really pisses me off. It is complete Bull***T. It ends up making people that are NOT into electronics or adept at soldering irons shy away since they onle believe these pieces are worthy of total and complete rebuild to be anything besides hazards.

I have been misquoted, misintepreted, misread...among other things. I recommed going to Orange Drop 716P caps and get accused of hawking "audiophile parts" among other things. Later it is quietly revealed that the 716P is a wise choice. No one notices. Craig gets told it is PROBABLY the transformer that is bad; I say that is probably NOT the transformer. To just relax a bit. I get accused of armchair diagnosis. What is the problem? NOTHING. The transformer, as is MOST OF THE TIME, is FINE in that Scott piece. I attempt to explain the workings of Deckert's preamp. Once again, a lack of a careful reading leads to a contradictory post that rephrases once again.

I have been misquoted, misrepresented, and misread so many times by this individual that it is now painful. I have had enough.

Selah.

kh

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 03-07-2002 at 12:41 PM

[Mike Lindsey]

Kelly,

Please don't let one individual stop you from posting on this Forum. I can tell you right now this place needs you a lot more than you need it. I wish the two of you could get along and coexist together. You are both tremendous assets here.

Please reconsider...

Mike

[mobile homeless]

I'm not totall leaving this place. Just not devoting as much time. And half of it is defending positions that shouldnt need defending. Indeed, I have tried to be cordial here with compliments right and left. Instead, I return to this underhanded type of reponse buried within these posts. There is no need. The innuendo is simply amazing.

kh

[Allan Songer]

Don't take it personally--some folks only know how to express a difference of opinion by spewing rancor and bile. I never mind someone telling me I'm full of crap, as long as they do it in a cordial and friendly manner!

As far as this amp goes--I try to NEVER buy a home assembled Scott or Dynakit or Eico or whatever because of the generally rotten build quality. The factory-built units go for about the same amount of money most of the time are are worth waiting for. I did score a pair of meticulously assembled Heaths once and a also a pair of "Mac-Kit" MC-30s that were beautifully made, but that's about it.

This amp IS a rat's nest and I would re-do it only 'cause it's so freaking UGLY! But my "weekend with an iron in my hands" days are OVER--I'm far too lazy to do this stuff any more. I'd rather play golf or tend to my garden or spin some vinyl! I do have a dozen or so "projects" waiting to happen, but I may end up selling them on ebay "as is" because I know I'll never get around to doing anything with them! Anyone looking for a cherry-pie orignal MAC 240 or 225 out there? Just kidding . . . .

I have gone through dozens of amps over the years and I have yet to post any advice here--don't really feel comfortable with it. I'm no EE and I'm certainly no expert or guru--just a hack with a schematic and and iron in his hads who has restored his fair share of MACs and Fishers and Scotts over the years and you know what?---I have NEVER thrown everything into the dust bin and started over.

Anyway--let's try to express our honest differences of opinion with less rancor and bile around here. This is one of the friendliest bunch of enthusiasts I've ever come across on the net and I hope we can keep it that way!

[Chris Robinson]

I for one have used this forum as an eductional tool, par excellance. MH has been a great part of that, on this forum and off of it.

I can also extrapolate as well as the next guy. I type 60+ words/minute and know that he's put up zillions of posts here in the last 1/2 year alone, and they'll almost all articulate, balanced and professional. Do the math ... besides this forum, he does his job, listens to mushc, has a wife and a life ... I don't know how he crams it all in. I guess he doesn't sleep.

I will take a contrary view and suggest we give something back to him by appreciating his visits when he can make them and feels inclined to do so.

I second Allen's comments above ... as well as his comments about golf. I'd rather be playing

------------------

If you don't like what is coming out, you wouldn't like what is going in." -PWK-

---------------------

TWO-CHANNEL SYSTEM

AES AE-25 "Superamp"

AES AE-3 Pre-amp

New Tube 4000 CD Player

1976 Klipschorns (ALK'ed)

HOME THEATER

Klipsch 1968 ALK Cornwall "II"s (LF/RF)

ALK Belle Klipsch (Center)

Klipsch Heresy (RR/LR)

Klipsch KSW-12 sub

Sonic Frontiers Anthem AMP1 (driving Cornwalls)

Sonic Frontiers Anthem AMP1 (driving Heresy's)

Denon AVR-4800

Toshiba SD-3109 DVD

[mike stehr]

Ignorance is Bliss, eh, MH?

I agree with Songer, This shouldn't be some place to play games about who is the ALL KNOWING, who cares?

I like this place because it is a friendly Forum, with a Family kind of Flair.

Hang in there!

This message has been edited by mike stehr on 03-07-2002 at 02:30 PM

[NOSValves]

I swear I must be voodoo to MH aand Mdeneen they always end up in a battle in my threads. Anyways I hope you both hang in there. I value advice from both of you.

Mobile

I picked up a fuse socket for the EICO today. Send me that photo we talked about. I don't know for sure what I'm going to do with the unit yet. But I will install the fuse and fix the obvious problems and give it a whirl before I trash it into a dust pan I promise you and feel I owe you at least that.

So guys let's all get along. Try not to read each others posts or something !!

Craig the flame starter !!!!!

[Allan Songer]

Amen, brother.

[mobile homeless]

You dont see the difference in those posts? To me, those are typical forum sparring and usually not taken as you have implied in this post. It is a verbal matching of wits with forum jousting style. I admit, I'll fire back something of this type when someone makes a blanket statement that strikes me as ripe for play. Others do it to me as well and on the whole it is part of the game. It usually is post specific. Tom Brennan and I go at it on various boards all over the NET, even more frequently than here. Yet I think we both joke about it ultimately and are looking forward to meeting each other in Ohio. Same with ole John Warren. I dont think ole KevinS would feel this way but I would but humor seems to be missing there anyway. I have nothing against Kevin at all.

Same with Randy Bey who I have given a hard time for a few years, but in the spirit of things. He understands this. We are friends and email frequently.

As for John Warren, he is a unique case, but in general, it is, once again, BBS sparring with witting retorts that are exchanged back and forth. When all is said and done, we can laugh about it.

Your posts regarding my posts, on the other hand, have been laced with more oblique examples and seem to have a hidden agenda having nothing to do with opinion. I am all for opinion as well as debating /and/or changing mine. But your innuendo has become almost manditory when responding to anyhing I have said.

I have posted on Solid state for and against, SET amps, vintage amps, DIY amps, cheap parts, high $$$ parts, high dollar gear, low dollar gear, etc. And I dont have blanket beliefs on any of this, preferring to let each example make its way fresh.

I also dont contradict EVERY post you make, even though I dont agree. You, on the other hand, do so with mine offen misreading and misrepresenting them. Do I do this in my retorts to anyone? I really dont think so. And your depiction of me sure contradicts that multitudes of email I get asking and thanking me for help. Your post, once again, basically mischaracterizes me.

Indeed, I have been on the internet for years, and posted to many forums, usually with humor and satire as a flowing thread. This depiction and out of context post you just offered above is yet a perfect example of how you can pull things out of context, just like you did comparing the EICO HF-81 to the LEAK amp.

Also, if you compare the post between the two of us, I think the difference in tone is generally easy to ascertain. I have bent over backwards to compliment you on your helping of others, to see ALL sides of the equation, to encourage those that are into DIY without belittling you. On the other hand, your posts mention me as if I am some "audiophile" with no knowledge of electronics, firing off opions from the hip. Go back and reread them. It is REALLY clear. I must have complimented you and your help no less than 10 times. Your side? Take a look. I have helped MANY within this forum wrangle music from their systems and have been thanked many times.

If you review the past few thread with exchanges just between us, notice my use of language and how careful I am not to offend you. Now please go back and see the innuendo within yours. You have belittled Single-ended amplification to no end. Yet I am wondering what you must be thinking when the countless souls on here have tasted it with good quality amps, and have come back BLOWN AWAY by the difference in the sonics. You have not ONCE, shown an inkling of interest. It's your right. Yet if it was me, and suddenly everyone started reporting amazing results that were just jaw dropping, I would be curious. Which is EXACTLY why I asked Ed to send me the latest low watt Class A solid state amp to compare. And I did so with AN OPEN MIND.

I tried to stop the ire between us several times by throwing praise and good words your way. You have shown an amazing lack of grace through the whole affair and take it upon yourself to be far more aggressive than I.

One last difference here is that I embrace DIY; I embrace making your own equipment, I also embrace commercial manufacturers and realize where they stand; I dont discount products becuase so-called "audiophiles" cater to them. I dont discount vintage or write off OLD. And I generally try to keep abreast of ALL the developments in audio, including parts and new topoligies that might be pushing a change in perspective. And I dont write off a cap that is $120 anymore than I write off a cap that is 75 cents. I try to judge on the performance.

And judging by the many emails I get from people within many forums, not just the Klipsch variety, I would say that most people dont see me as you do.

Of course, some would disagree. But hell, as you said, we all have our opinions.

kh

ps- My use of the words "loon, codger, fiend, freaks, etc" are almost ALWAYS in good jest. You are the first to take them like this.

[Clipped and Shorn]

I haven't been around here that long and do not even do a throrough job of keeping up with all the posts here. I think most of us out here probably see both sides of the little personality friction between you two. Both sides have validity, and both sides are from imperfect humans, as we all are.

There is always a danger when anyone comments, however obliquely, on someone elses statements. It is almost always slightly out of context. This "out of context" escalating banter is part of the problem. For example, when I saw mdeneen's example of the Leak wiring, I didn't think he was comparing it to the HF-81, I think he was merely showing an example of how great wiring would look, and how extremely far off that particular HF-81 wiring was, and also how much it could be possibly improved if one did a complete makeover and wanted to be a perfectionist. Nowhere was he saying that all used HF-81s needed to be completely rebuilt, only that the particular example in question could either be dangerous and or risky to fire up, even if it meant that one might ruin some perfectly good parts in the process. He then warned of generally taking online advice someone might give based on sketchy photos, when there could actually be a significant downside to such hasty appraisals.

You guys seem all too ready to assume that the other is attacking, when the bottom line is really a struggle to be able to express opinions without feeling like one is always being judged.

I have recently started a band and I want to mention something from that experience which might be relevant. I have noticed that either while rehearsing or performing, if any of the band mates, look over to me while I am soloing and have anything but an enthusiastic look on their countenance, I become inhibited, and then do not do my best work. All band members have their own

individual styles, and it is important that everyone make an effort to be supportive and look supportive when it comes to what the other person is doing and not to set up any inhibiting and censorial attitudes.

Somehow you guys have not yet found the best way to keep out of each other's way. We want you to be happy and uninihibited about sharing your knowledge and opinions. It is a big world out there, and there should be plenty of room for all of us.

-salamied and bolognaed

This message has been edited by Clipped and Shorn on 03-08-2002 at 04:11 PM

[mobile homeless]

The band comment one was a very pertinent point, and VERY real, especially when it is a new band. I have been through the same thing. In addition, band members and musicians in general tend to be very sensitive to this.

I have tried to be, as I said, VERY complimentary of mdeneen and the help he provides. And have even toned down the humor with him lest it taken in the wrong way. I also take comments and be sure to balance objections with positive remarks ie the original Dynaco SCA-35 posts.

This is ALL to do as you suggest and try to strike a balance. I really dont think this had been returned and if you glance at the two posts above, the tone difference is very evident.

That being said, I will continue to try to balance this out. If generally dont start these exchanges at all. Obviously, that is ulitmately not what is important.

kh

ps- Just like as Clipped, I had not read Mdeneens post above either, as I did just now. You know, if anyone here does not see a basic difference in tone here I dont know what else to say. What can one do?

Note: I guess I'll leave this last reply from mdeneen below to speak for itself.

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 03-08-2002 at 05:21 PM

[NOSValves]

I want to know how the heck a thread can have 45 replies and only 40 views? There's something wrong with the web server's calculator LOL !!!!

[Parrot]

You know, if anyone here does not see a basic difference in tone here I dont know what else to say. What can one do?

I see a difference in tone, certainly.

[Parrot]

MH: Just a few stray comments: For at least a few weeks now I have not been responding to ANY of your posts - as I told you I wouldn't after the previous round of nonsense. I have not been contradicting anything you post, because I am not posting to you. Let's be specific for just one example or two.

1) The Deckert preamp thing with maxg: He posted his question or comment about the cap switch, you posted something, and then I posted directly to maxg.

Now, you're having have some trouble understanding that when I post after you, and directly to maxg, and not quoting you, referencing you, or your posted opinion, I am exercising MY right to simply post my OWN independant opinion of the subject matter of MAXG's question.

In that circumstance, I have no obligation to even READ your post, let alone, accomodate it, comment on it, accept it, reject it, integrate it into mine, agree or disgree with it, acknowledge it, or adjust my post to only cover areas you didn't or any other such concept. It's every poster's choice.

If you consequently don't like my opinion, or it happens to be different than yours, you're free to do whatever you like. If maxg didn't like it, didn't want it, didn't want me commenting on it, he is also free to tell me to get lost.

How can you be under the notion that each poster must "comprehend your view" into their individual posts? This is what you keep referring to as "contradicting" - - as though it is a rule that I must acknowledge your posting, then integrate my opinion into whatever you have posted. Let's be clear - - when I see the name "NOS440" or "maxg" as the initiator of a THREAD, the fact that you post into it, doesn't mean that what I then post to that thread has ANYTHING TO DO WITH YOU.

I am not responsible for your post. If you tell a guy to fire up a firetrap, and I say don't, your post is NOT my responsibility. I have no obligation to "answer to you for contradicting you." Is that fairly clear? Worry about what MOBILE posts and stop worrying about what MDENEEN posts.

I'll be happy to hear from the moderator of this forum if I am required to aquiesce to each of your posts before posting. But, you are making a massive assumption that I somehow carefully evaluate what YOU write before offering my own independant view to the original question. I know you have a healthy ego (don't we all), but MY GOD Mobile, are you seriously believing that I considering your musings in such detail and with such concern?

2) The EICO "dustpan" incident, herein: This was NOS440's thread - not yours. I was not commenting on YOUR EICO, or the numerous EICO's your buddies own, or the future EICOs you may obtain. I did not suggest YOU strip yours, nor did I suggest your east coast EICO owners (who have NEVER stripped one to the bare chassis!) should do it to theirs. How you can take offense at my "suggestion" regarding an inanimate object such as a resistor or capacitor is absolutely beyond my comprehension to understand.

I've spent many hours with Craig on the phone, diddling schematics, debugging, etc, etc, I think I have earned SOME "standing" with which to offer my suggestion for him. I think I have some first-hand knowledge of his goals in which I might have a context to offer the suggestion. He is an adult. He can accept or reject.

How this suggestion to NOS440 about HIS EICO can be taken as a massive insult to you or your countless EICO buddies, or how you conceive that I must even consider their "preference" is just otherworldly to me.

We can't strip our EICOs because Mobile Homeless and the east coast crew don't do it that way? WHAT ON EARTH are you thinking? Your influence may be very large, it may even be HUGE, but please, trust me on this, it does not extend out to my garage. It's a bunch of RESISTORS, sir! They ain't puppies or babies!

The "east coast EICO crew" has a gnat's *** of influence over what I might do out here, or what I might suggest a new friend of mine do! This is just not even intelligent conversation at this point. Feel free to spend the next 10-hours typing away at why I need to be worried about what other people do with their resistors and caps! The EICO police? Honestly.

You can rationalize your bullying as "just BBS jostling" - I knew this was coming. But, the offense taken was mine. I had to squirm reading your insult of John Warren, and TheEars. So frankly, it doesn't matter if they know or not that you were just kidding.

The call from Mr. Songer was for "civil behavior and a lack of rancor and bile," and you know what? The fact that you want to cover it up later with good ole country humor excuses the intitial attack not one iota. You, the "philosophy" major should appreciate that. Thanks Allan for raising the issue so clearly.

Again, if you want to grab your "free pass" on civility, or others want to extend it to you on your behalf, fine. It's kind of like having "special priveldges." But don't come a crying and whining and whimpering and kicking your little toe into the ground everytime someone has an idea different than yours. Your rant herein about my "not understanding you and misquoting you...." and all the rest.

I highly suggest Klipsch give you your own forum, and you can be the moderator and set whatever posting rules you would like. I think you have a lot of fascinating stories and experience at listening to a variety of gear, and I have often found it interesting and entertaining. I'd love to see it. Maybe, "Mobile's Column" or something. I'd be a frequent reader and never a poster.

However, that being said, if you feel that every post here on this open forum, and every poster must first and formost considering each of your musings and offerings in some special context before having their own thoughts, then the "Dear Mobile" column is the place for that. I assume you know the difference between an open forum and a personal advice column? I assume it because you have said you DO understand public forums. Let's put that understanding to work.

I am trying as hard as possible not to answer any of your posts on any topic. I don't have a 500HP typewriter, nor infinite time to wrangle you on every topic, every thread, every post, every day. Ain't gonna happen.

And, I would in return appreciate it if you would understand that this isn't about YOU - there are hundreds, indeed thousands of other individuals on this forum who have every right to post things that you don't appove of.

And, until the moderator tells me that this is YOUR forum, I shall continue to offer my suggestions, help, ideas, and just plain old fashioned opinions to those who ask public questions. If I see a thread named, "Hey Mobile, what should I do about......" I guarantee you I will not post in that thread. You have my solemn word on it. That's only fair. Otherwise, your thoughts, musings, humor or lack or, ideas, meanderings, and so forth are only YOUR responsibility, not mine. Please stop whining at me now, and just present your own gig, which is normally interesting and reasonable, and allow me the freedom to do the same.

mdeneen

P.S. Oh, as for your "frequent", left-handed compliments of me? Yeah, please, don't bother, I am not an idiot or coot or suffering from a mental defect, and I pretty much easily recognize those forms of 'social grace" for what they are.

------------------

Cheers

The idea of "Mobile's Column" was a good one. But it looks like, and Painful Reality has pretty much confirmed, that Mobile has gotten a life.

[Mike Lindsey]

Now why would you bring this back up again? I remember this one pretty well, and departed the Forum myself not much after.

BTW, whatever happend to that HF-81? Did Craig finish it, and what were his thoughts?

Mike

[anarchist]

Now why would you bring this back up again?

I will give you three guesses and two of them are unnecessary.

[Amy]

Why did you bring this one back up? Bored today, Parrot?