Calling Mobile - Laurel IIX 300B

[HII]

After hours of research, reading threads and reviewing my budget, I have finally decided to purchase the Welborne Laurel IIX 300B amps to use with my Heresy II's. All of the posts I have read have significantly influenced my decision. I would like to know which caps (Hovlands or Jensen) and which resistors (Allen Bradley or Holco) to order with the units. Unfortunatley at this time I cannot afford the Ultimate Upgrade. Let me know if I am making a mistake buying the stock units. This is definatley more money than I wanted to spend on my first tube purchase but all this reading has got me all excited. I have a few quesions for the experts out there:

1. Are these difficult to build?

2. Are the transformers (Electraprint)as good as

- say - Magnaquests?

3. Does the Ulitmate Upgrade provide drastic or

subtle improvements.

3. I assume that all of the parts are of very high

quality. I am concerned that you pay a premium

for cosmetics (as compared to the Bottlehead

products) as these amps are stunning to look at.

4. Which pre-amp would be the best match for the

Laurels: Foreplay - with all of the upgrades

Creek OBH-12

AES PH-1

I am very limited in price range as a result of

the decision to purchase the Laurels.

5. Can the Laurels be used without a preamp?

i.e. CD direct as a short term measure?

I was originally considering the Bottlehead Paramours (price) then the Welborne Moondogs (better parts? and nicer looking) but the additional 4.5 watts with the Laurels gives me a level of comfort to make sure that I will be satisified with the higher volumes and bass reponse.

SORRY FOR THE LONG POST - I am am very excited to finally enter the world of SET amplification but am also nervous about spending a good sum of money on something that I have never heard and have no idea what it will sound like. I am one who always likes to audition things before I buy.

Thanks for your help.

HII

[mike stehr]

I think Welborne just went on a 7 day sale thing.

[HII]

The sale is what finalized my deceision. They are now within my budget.

[ShapeShifter]

Congrats. You'll gonna love them!

------------------

"KLIPSCH IS MUSIC"f>

[mobile homeless]

So many questionsso many variablesso few constants.

You know, I have answered questions like these a number of times and I sometimes have to remind myself that system, room, music taste, and listening habits dictate choices with circuits and tube type more than anything else. To blindly state that Amp A is better than Amp B is sometimes a hollow exercise. To be honest, system interaction and taste combined with perception and listening experience can overpower even the best advice.

I have been really excited by this board since it offers up an opportunity to make these suggestions regarding SET amplification to a mostly known interaction speaker wise, as the Heritage series and vintage Klipsch have many of the same basic properties even though there are obvious differences. Indeed, the differences within the same type sometimes outnumber differences of an entire production run of other makes! But, the similarities are still quite constant.

Single-Ended Triodes work VERY well with the vintage Klipsch Horn speakers given the right parameters such room size, listening habits, music selection, and needs. I am adding some more qualifications here since I know that some might find their Ozzy to lack some bite at 105dB compared to their SS powerhouse. That being said, I still find listening to my entire collection quite rewarding on my 3.5w 2A3 monoblocks, this through vintage 77 Cornwall I with Alnico and Type B crossovers. One thing is for sure, however, the Cornwall offers very extended bass compared to the Heresy and the LaScala. The LaScala might have some other positive characteristics due to the horn loading but still, the bass is going to probably be lacking here to some (regardless of amplification). Some prefer the LaScalas and others the Cornwalls. I personally find the Cornwalls bass to be VERY good and I came from the direction of very refined and controlled bass if not the ultimate in extension (my ProAc Mini Towers extended to 40hz with a small prayer).

Now people have asked me which directly heated triode is better for them between the 300B and 2A3. Does the 8w 300B give me more bass than the 3.5 watt 2A3? I personally think the 300B provides a fuller presentation in some ways, but surprisingly enough, think the 2A3 actually to have deeper and more articulate bass depending on application. The 2A3 has a clearer midrange compared to the 300B. The 300B has a more full presentation generally. Now, what is the catch? Well, by changing the operating points of these tubes, you can bring out different characteristics. Also, with a SET amp, with so few parts, you can change tonal and presentation qualities.

I have opted for the Moondog 2A3 as I prefer (as of late) the more open sound of this tube. It even accentuates the SET qualities as the clarity here is up one notch. Ron Welborne believes that the Ultimate Upgrade with good 300B offerings brings the two closer together regarding the Moondogs and Laurels. I really cant comment here. I will be hearing a good 300B SET in the next few weeks and will compare them once again (The Billie). Many who have heard both the Laurel IIx and Moondogs side by side, say the Moondogs are the more refined amp thus giving it the nod. On the other hand, there are many ecstatic Laurel IIx owners.

Most opting for the Laurels seem to be choosing the Ultimate Upgrade package even though it is pricey, this for the Black Gate WKZ cap and Jensen Copper Oils. Supposedly, from all reports I have heard, the Black Gates do a better job with the midrange reproduction, clarity, and smoothness. Downfalls include PRICE, which is bordering on insane by those not familiar with this cap. Also, the beasts take an insane amount of time to form and do not come up to full potential till after a few days of being left on, these reports coming from across the board. I can say the same for my HUGE ELNA Cerafine cap as well since the sound still improves up to two or three days. Again, these distinctions can be subtle. But once you get more refined listening abilities, I find these subtle distinctions, laughed at by many, to be very important. Although without careful attention to your whole system, some of these things might remain illusive and hidden behind a mysterious veil.

I think the Moondog and Laurel IIx kits appear to be relatively easy to build. You need to take your time and have good soldering habits with the ability to produce a clean, good joint. I dont know if I would attempt such an expensive kit for my first time, this being my main reservation. Still, many have done just this and come out with good results. The forum at Welborne Labs is there for questions to be asked and most technical will be answered here with Ron perusing the contents every few days. He is also a phone call away.

As for the difference between Electra-Print and MagneQuest transformers, there are varying opinions here depending on whom you ask. Some really prefer the MagneQuest units. Some say the Electra-Print is the ticket. What is the correct answer? I have no idea except to say that both are probably very good. I think the early Laurel amps came with the MagneQuest FS-030, which is hailed as a stellar transformer. Do the Electra-Prints measure up? I dont know; I have never heard an Electra-Print transformer in any gear. People are happy with both, however.

You bring up a comparison with the Bottlehead amps. These are VERY different amps and circuits. The Bottlehead Paramours are not even on the same plane here. The parts difference and cost is very noticeable. A comparison between the upper tier Bottlehead gear is more fitting but even then, the approach is VERY different. Parafeed transformers, a different driver stage, different parts, and solid-state rectification mark the Bottlehead amps.

As for the preamp question, I dont really think the Foreplay is the best preamp choice all the way around. I have gone on record here many times with countless posts on preamps. Its a tough call and depends on other factors. I would perhaps opt for the passive AND active approach since the passive is so inexpensive (the Creek OBH-12 is only about $150 or so used). I enjoy making the choice depending on mood and music. I have the switch down pat. As for a tube unit, I am looking forward to hearing The Basie with upgrades in the coming weeks. From all reports, this is going to be a great little piece. And there are some VERY REAL reasons to go here that I am not at liberty to reveal yet. Lets just say that vinyl lovers might be interested as well. I also have been on record as preferring the 6SN7/6SL7 tubes to the small plate varieties. I still hold that to be the case as well.

Both the Laurels and the Moondogs can be used by a CD player with a variable output if the CD player has at least 2 volts and a decent power supply. On the other hand, I dont find these outputs on the majority of CD players to be very high quality. This would be just a stopgap solution in my view as the fixed outs offer higher resolution and better sonics.

As you can see, there are many choices and variables. Getting your whole system and room to work together takes an effort. Just dropping these pieces of gear wherever does not bring out the best sound. Racks, wire, location, setup, and system synergy are very real factors, often ignored by many.

Just dont forget the music, as that is really the bottom line, ultimately. If you lose perspective, the equipment can take over role one, which would be a loss. It's a balancing act at this level.

kh

Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point

CD Player Rega Planet

Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified

Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks

Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect

Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover

system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s>

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 03-10-2002 at 10:48 AM

[HII]

My main reason for opting for the Laurels over the Moondogs is to ensure that I have the headroom for occassional party level volumes without worryimg about clipping. I understand all of the variables affecting the decision making process. I do listen to rock music and this is a consideration too( Nothing like Ozzy however - I prefer bands like the Tragically Hip, U2, etc.). I also beleive that to truly get the full effect of music is to listen to it at descent volumes. My objective here is to get the best sounding SET experience, with the best quality parts, with as few limitations as possible, and I want my system to sound equally as good on all types of music. Again, with the fact that it is impossible to audition these things. Maybe the Moondogs would be the better choice, after all they are cheaper and the tubes as well. Either way I could not afford the Ultimate upgrade at this time. I trust mobiles advice as he appears to be truly passionate about music and has spent the time, and money, searching out the "holy grails". Ideally I would audition both the Moondog and Laurels, but this is not possible. My next purcases will be the Rega Planet CD player and possibly the Creek OBH-12 preamp to go with my Hersey II's.

[mobile homeless]

If your musical taste is MAINLY rock, and dominated by this, I would perhaps consider whether the SET route is the best way as I think if your listening really does not contain much jazz, classical, or acoustic music, you will:

A. find yourself gravitating toward these genres to hear through your new amps as it is magical and will allow you more appreciation. In some ways, acquiring a SET amp actually challenges you to broaden your selection.

B. be slightly disappointed as SETs do rock well, but not with the all out, room shaking ability of very good push pull.

I have more than a few thousand indie releases mostly on vinyl (in addition of a few shelves of 60s material). To be honest, some of the more wall of sound type recordings from bands like My Bloody Valentine, early Jesus and the Mary Chain etc are not best served by Klipsch and SET amps. On the other hand, it is a hard call as some of this stuff really comes out well. Bands like Yo La Tengo and SMOG can sound amazing. Sparse recordings do better with Klipsch mid and treble horns mated with tubes.

I think 40s, 50s, 60s jazz is almost sublime with this combination. Free jazz by trios, quartets, and quintets can really just be amazing. This music is very progressive and challenging and can be a revelation with horns and SET. Quality push pull can deliever here as well.

Do you have any interest in other types of music? Do you see yourself mainly staying with rock?

kh

[Randy Bey]

HII,

I don't know how sensitive the Heresy's will be, but as a Klipschorn/Laurel II owner I must say that my combination will easily get LOUD. In fact, I have this problem when I play PJ Harvey where the damn ceiling panels start vibrating in their little rails, making a nuisance of themselves. And I have one stud wall that has apparently got an AC run close to the drywall, it starts vibrating like crazy too.

Hmmm, you'd think I was playing music kinda loud there.

Well, I'm not a big rocker (any more) and my tastes in loud music go closer to triple forte orchestral, but I will say the 'numbers' is the wrong way to look at amps, at least when comparing power output. My first (and last, I think!) tube amp purchase was the Laurel with Magnaquest iron, ultimate upgrade, and silver wire, and compared to the NAD 30 watt SS it replaced, was actually louder. A bit.

And I also have, surprize surprize, a Creek OBH-12 and a Rega Planet. I am very happy with this pairing. I don't think you will be disappointed, but if you like to feel the music, maybe MH is correct: SET may not be for you. Get yourself a nice PP 18 watt tube amp and shake the dust off your rafters.

f>

This message has been edited by Randy Bey on 03-12-2002 at 05:00 PM

[mobile homeless]

Randy, I wrote you a well-crafted mail this fine day and have not heard hide nor hair from your ice-bound ways. Did my offerings fall on deaf ears? Drop me a mail.

As for your post, I agree that there is plenty of volume to be had. But if Mr. HII desires to hear U2's "I will Follow" at room shaking, rafter busting volume mirroring a Marshal tube stack, I sincerely think he might be better served with some quality push-pull with good output iron.

Speaking of output iron, do your Laurels employ the MQ DS-025 or the FS-030 output transformers?

kh

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 03-12-2002 at 07:09 PM

[HII]

Thanks for your input Randy.

I actually took the plunge and bought the Laurel IIX yesterday on Welborne's sale they are having now. I at first experienced buyers remourse as I did not anticipate spending this much $$$ but now I am excited as hell to build them and hook them up. They sure look like gorgeous amps, more like a fine piece of furniture - I can't wait. I actually spoke with Ron Welborne yesterday to confirm my order and, after talking with him and asking a few questions, I have no doubt in my mind that I have made the right decision. I unfortunatley could not afford the Ultimate upgrade. Do you know how significant the improvement is on the Laurels with the upgrades? If so, what differences have you noticed. I may at some point upgrade to the Blackgates and Jensen caps. FYI I ordered mine with Allen Bradley resistors and Jensen Caps as recommended by Ron Welborne for horn speakers. If this is a mistake someone please let me know as I can probably change the order to Hovlands/Holcos as my order will not get shipped until probably next week.

My Heresies FYI are 96db which is plenty efficient according to Ron Wleborne. I like the Creek preamp idea as, for one thing, it is cheap and sounds like it does not influence the sound from the CD player to the amps.

I have demo'd the Rega Plant. The sound was very good and musical but I thought it lacked a little bit in detail - slightly rolled off highs? I demo'd it using a Passion Audio I10 35w push pull amp, however, which probably contributed to this. I would appreciate your comments on this.

Thanks for your feedback.

HII

[HII]

By the way, I am not looking for earth shattering, rafter breaking, window shattering volume. I just wanted to make sure that they would at least go louder than my TV. Well, maybe a bit louder. I live on a golf course so cranking it to insane levels would be inappropriate anyway. I just like to be able to listen and feel the music at a reasonable volume, whether its Saragh McLaughlin, Jesse Cook, classical and, yes, even U2. There is a certain volume, to me, at which the music, the instruments and vocals start to come alive and sound real - like the snap of a snare drum and the resonance (for lack of a better word) of an acoustic guitar. To me a certain volume needs to reached to hear these subtleties, at least on my current SS system. Maybe because I have never experienced SETs before. Anyway, after talking to Ron Welborne, volume is no longer a concern to me. I now can't wait for the SET experience.

HII

[mobile homeless]

Well, I have a feeling you will like the Laurel's very much. Invest in some driver tube upgrades as you can improve on the ones Ron includes.

I have tantalum resistors from Audio Note along with the Jensen Copper Oils. I like them. Some prefer the Caddock to the Allen Bradley resistors. Did Ron mention them? The Allen Bradley will probably be fine; they will offer a softer presentatin than the Caddock. The resistors would be a pain to take out but the caps are very easy to swap as you will see. You could also buy a quad of Auricaps to try at a later date. What does Ron stock as his main cap now? I know he used to go with Elna Cerafines but they are getting very hard to get. Did he tell you what he is including? BTW, the Jensens are one of the main parts of the upgrade. Seem the only thing you are not getting is the Black Gate WKZ. You might call Ron and ask him about the Caddock and Allen Bradley comparison.

The Creek is a great temp option but I still think a good tube line stage is better in the end. Give some thought to your IC and speaker wire as well.

kh

Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point

CD Player Rega Planet

Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified

Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks

Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect

Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover

system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s>

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 03-12-2002 at 10:36 PM

[HII]

I will check on the Caddock resisitors and Elna Cerafines. In regards to the Ultimate upgrade, if I were to later install the Black Gate and remaining Jensen copper in oils, the only thing I would be missing from the Ultimate Upgrade package are the precision machined Teflon tube sockets and NOS tubes. I could replace the tubes at some point but I think that upgrading the tube sockets would not be worth the effort. I have no idea what improvements the tube sockets would make.

HII

[mobile homeless]

That is the problem. Replacing the tube sockets later would be a complete pain in the ***. Just go ahead and write those off if you cant afford them now. Thay are better (really have great grip on the pins) but not THAT much better that you need to desolder ALL the connection to replace. What is the price diff for these?

The Mullard rectifier makes a pretty big difference to me, however, at least in the Moondogs. Some will argue here. What is Ron giving you tube wise?

kh

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 03-13-2002 at 09:36 AM

[Randy Bey]

HII,

The Laurels were my second venture into tubes, I have not heard them without the high end parts in them. I will say that I was also a bit buyer remorsie until they came. Then the minute I heard them I decided they were 'keepers', just like the Khorns were. Both of those stereo bits hurt me financially upon buying but it has prevented countless expense trying to do better.

You have made a good decision.

I can't say about the quality parts, they help, I don't doubt that, but oh man are they pricey. Is it worth the price? That I don't know and can't answer.

My Rega Planet is very close to the separates I had previously, but yes, the detail is a trifle soft. I would not classify them as lacking in high end, they just have a trifle less definition to the sound. But who boy they have soundstage like nothing I've heard.

As to volume, I often listen at around 85-90dB, which is quite loud, all things considering. I have absolutely NO problem with dynamic snap at that level, and even higher.

Kelly, I have MSN as an ISP now, (hopefully not for much longer) and I think MSN stands for Mail Still Nowhere. The freeks at msn told me the half dozen people having trouble sending me mail had problems on THEIR end. (!) And then a week later I read in the paper that qwest, who are the villains that transferred us into micro$oft clutches, has been deluged with complaints about msn email service. Feh.

Anyway, I got your mail from the 12th around 10AM and replied. I suppose that is still winding it's way through the labyrinth of Windows 2000 exchange servers necessary to maintain the flow of SMTP at Redmond. Short answer is I will wait on that preamp thing.

[mobile homeless]

Randy, did you ever find out if your Laurels employ the MagneQuest DS-025 or the FS-030? Should list it in your construction book (hope the goon gave you this as it is VERY helpful).

As for the Planet, I find that many digital rigs tend to hype the detail and go over the top, which can be addictive but is not always correct. I think many just assume this is the way digital sounds. That is why I always found the Planet so alluring; the presentation is one of the most natural I have heard.

kh

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 03-13-2002 at 09:22 AM

[Randy Bey]

No, I didn't get a construction book with it, the guy I got it from got it secondhand as well.

Is there identifying markings I could look for? I don't remember if I noticed any such thing while gazing lovingly at them before....

[mobile homeless]

Here are the measurement in height/width etc.

http://www.magnequest.com/030.htm

Check out the DS-025 size at:

http://www.magnequest.com/025.htm

The FS-030 is a BEAST! Not sure if Ron used this or not. Cant remember. I should know I guess shouldnt I given my MQ connection.

You should ask Ron to send you a copy of the construction manual. It is well worth it to have.

kh

[Randy Bey]

based upon those measurements they are 30's.

[HII]

Mobile:

FYI, my Laurel's will be shipped with the following:

Main cap: Elna Cerafines

Rectifier: Softec

Resistors: Allen Bradley

The Caddock resistors are a $ 40 option. The Mullard rectifier is also an upgrade.

Should I try to change the rectifier or the resisitors?

HII