ka7niq Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 IS there a "break in period" for the Crites Titanium Tweeter Diapraghms ? They sound IMHO as good as this Cornwall 2 tweeter/horn combo can possible sound, just wondered if anyone noticed any change in sound after "break in" ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 Break in,,About 5 seconds,, If it does not crack your fine to play,,,,, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhing Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 I recently installed Bob Crites' Titanium tweeter diaphragms in my Forte IIs and the improvement was immediately noticeable. I haven't heard any changes since. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ka7niq Posted December 31, 2009 Author Share Posted December 31, 2009 I recently installed Bob Crites' Titanium tweeter diaphragms in my Forte IIs and the improvement was immediately noticeable. I haven't heard any changes since. Me either, but I have left them playing for days, just in case ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 They are pretty much "mechanical" and thus either work or don't. My thoughts are that although some "schools of thought" may disagree, conventional loudspeaker drivers theoretically begin to "deteriorate" the minute they are played. Any consistent mechanical motion, especially with any degree of heat, however slight, will eventually wear out the moving parts. May take many, many years, but eventually something will fail. [] Diaphragms dry out and become brittle, and eventually they will crack. Woofer cones will eventually become way too flexible; think of it this way: Take a piece of cardboard and flex it (not bend it) for about an hour... it will become far less stiff than before you started. Most cone materials are designed to resist the flexing and allow the mechanical motion to be handled by the surround. But eventually, and it may take along time, the cones themselves can begin to flex. Case in point with which I am most familiar: "Flexy" or less than rigid cones are/were the problem with old K-22's and K-24's in the Heresy's. In the case of the K-22 (Heresy-I), that "flexiness" was not that disturbing in that the "flexing" was probably an even harmonic phenomena. This is likely why Heresy "afficionados" like the old K-22's, even though from a "performance" spec, a new K-24 would be "better". Old K-24's, however, can sound awful. The difference is mechanical as the cone surface geometry for a K-24 is different than a K-22. When it gets "old", "it don't sound so good". It's just "wore out". Magnets also deteriorate. Not much, but enough over 25-30 years. When I do a "rebuild" of Heresy's, I always carefully examine the woofers. Even though they may look ok, when I examine the cone material, as often as not when I "push" on the cone, the cone will "flex" rather than uniformly moving back and forth. If it's a K-24 (Heresy-II or late model Heresy-I), I'll usually replace them with a pair of K-28's (Heresy-III's) from Klipsch Parts. If it's a K-22, and the cone is not too "flexy", I will often as not keep it. Midranges and tweeters. By now (shortly to be 2010...) many old K-77's that I see are problematic. Over time the diaphragms are simply dried out. They were made from a phenolic resin impregnated material, and the heat and ever so slight vibration over that long period of time pretty much wipes them out. Notwithstanding capacitor issues in the crossovers, the result is that "tinny" or harsh sound that many vintage Heritage owners begin to notice. Think of it like having a vintage Ferrari, Porsche, Vette', etc. It's where the rubber meets the road, and like tires, the diaphragms need to be replaced at some point. While not quite as noticeable, old K-55's have the same issue. Time and heat. Regardless of whether or not an old K-55 is the single phase plug or the dual phase plug, etc., if it's 30+ years old, t's not going to sound as good (as in smooth and nice) as a NIB Atlas PD5VH (K-55). Same thing applies to a new Crites CT-125 or a fresh diaphragm'd K-77. Just some thoughts on what I have observed and noted over the years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ka7niq Posted December 31, 2009 Author Share Posted December 31, 2009 They are pretty much "mechanical" and thus either work or don't. My thoughts are that although some "schools of thought" may disagree, conventional loudspeaker drivers theoretically begin to "deteriorate" the minute they are played. Any consistent mechanical motion, especially with any degree of heat, however slight, will eventually wear out the moving parts. May take many, many years, but eventually something will fail. Diaphragms dry out and become brittle, and eventually they will crack. Woofer cones will eventually become way too flexible; think of it this way: Take a piece of cardboard and flex it (not bend it) for about an hour... it will become far less stiff than before you started. Most cone materials are designed to resist the flexing and allow the mechanical motion to be handled by the surround. But eventually, and it may take along time, the cones themselves can begin to flex. Case in point with which I am most familiar: "Flexy" or less than rigid cones are/were the problem with old K-22's and K-24's in the Heresy's. In the case of the K-22 (Heresy-I), that "flexiness" was not that disturbing in that the "flexing" was probably an even harmonic phenomena. This is likely why Heresy "afficionados" like the old K-22's, even though from a "performance" spec, a new K-24 would be "better". Old K-24's, however, can sound awful. The difference is mechanical as the cone surface geometry for a K-24 is different than a K-22. When it gets "old", "it don't sound so good". It's just "wore out". Magnets also deteriorate. Not much, but enough over 25-30 years. When I do a "rebuild" of Heresy's, I always carefully examine the woofers. Even though they may look ok, when I examine the cone material, as often as not when I "push" on the cone, the cone will "flex" rather than uniformly moving back and forth. If it's a K-24 (Heresy-II or late model Heresy-I), I'll usually replace them with a pair of K-28's (Heresy-III's) from Klipsch Parts. If it's a K-22, and the cone is not too "flexy", I will often as not keep it. Midranges and tweeters. By now (shortly to be 2010...) many old K-77's that I see are problematic. Over time the diaphragms are simply dried out. They were made from a phenolic resin impregnated material, and the heat and ever so slight vibration over that long period of time pretty much wipes them out. Notwithstanding capacitor issues in the crossovers, the result is that "tinny" or harsh sound that many vintage Heritage owners begin to notice. Think of it like having a vintage Ferrari, Porsche, Vette', etc. It's where the rubber meets the road, and like tires, the diaphragms need to be replaced at some point. While not quite as noticeable, old K-55's have the same issue. Time and heat. Regardless of whether or not an old K-55 is the single phase plug or the dual phase plug, etc., if it's 30+ years old, t's not going to sound as good (as in smooth and nice) as a NIB Atlas PD5VH (K-55). Same thing applies to a new Crites CT-125 or a fresh diaphragm'd K-77. Just some thoughts on what I have observed and noted over the years. Great Post ! I am fighting myself, at this moment. I wantt to take the old tweeter diapraghms I have and paint some nail polish or something on them to stiffen em up, see what happens ? I have the new titanium diapraghms, and the old ones are just sitting here, un needed ? WTF ? Bob Crites said he is working on titanium replacement diapraghms for the cornwall 2 midrange, maybe even aluminum would be cool ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Putting In unnessary time on break in of a HF phram,, Just accellirates deterioration,,,Take any piece of metal ,,bend back and forth and watch flex point,,you can see it change color before spliting.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Bob Crites said he is working on titanium replacement diapraghms for the cornwall 2 midrange, maybe even aluminum would be cool ? [Y] Pretty soon I would suspect, Uncle Bob will have replacement diaphragms for all of the vintage Heritage series!!! [H] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ka7niq Posted December 31, 2009 Author Share Posted December 31, 2009 Bob Crites said he is working on titanium replacement diapraghms for the cornwall 2 midrange, maybe even aluminum would be cool ? Pretty soon I would suspect, Uncle Bob will have replacement diaphragms for all of the vintage Heritage series!!! And THIS is a good thing I think ? Polk makes better tweeters availiable for their older flagship models, WHY does not Klipsch make better horns/drivers/diapraghms for owners of IT'S old Flagship roducts ? The talk about all the computer modeling that took place on the Palladium, why cant they "model" us up some better performing updated parts for our Heritage Speakers. If Polk can support their old Flagships with new, improved drivers, why not Klipsch ? Back to the titanium diapraghms, why not aluminum in the cornwall 2 midrange ? Why does it HAVE to be titanium, in a midrange compression driver, only going out past 6k anyway ? I would think aluminum will do that easily ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Titanium was supposed to last longer than Aluminum...But they do not sound the same,, Resonence spikes differ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ka7niq Posted December 31, 2009 Author Share Posted December 31, 2009 Titanium was supposed to last longer than Aluminum...But they do not sound the same,, Resonence spikes differ. It should last 20 years, huh ? Most of us will be dead in 20 years anyway, maybe even as soon as 2012, if the Mayan Calendar is correct ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 How about an aluminum replacement diaphragm for the K55V drivers? . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ka7niq Posted December 31, 2009 Author Share Posted December 31, 2009 How about an aluminum replacement diaphragm for the K55V drivers? . Happy New Year Dennis ! Please check out Chia Seeds ? Really high Glycemic Index, google it ? Food researchers at Univ of Toronto rediscovered it, evreone in my family except me yet diabetes, got it on both sides of family tree! They are all taking it, with excellent results. Will that diapraghm work in cornwall 2 ? I thought corn 2 had same drivers as original forte ? I am gonna re do the crossover caps, and solder the wires, as you suggested. So far, dont think corn 2 is as good as original forte ? Have crites titanium in tweeter, but old caps, new poly ERSE caps coming for crossover. The corn 2 caps are mylar, maybe ESR is high ? Maybe wires need soldered ? Any other tweaks ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 See what happens after new caps and diaphragms. The CW's should at that point easily out perform the Forte's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ka7niq Posted January 1, 2010 Author Share Posted January 1, 2010 See what happens after new caps and diaphragms. The CW's should at that point easily out perform the Forte's Well, I have new titanium diapraghms installed, but I plan to re check tweeter phase again. The new ERSE Poly Caps will be here this week, and the Cornwall 2's will get treated to them. I will re check all wiring, probably solder all push on connections like DJK suggests too. I WANT to like the cornwall 2's, really I do, but I caught myself wanting to pull them out of my system, and go back to the JBL S 412' P's. I hate to give up all the cornwall II's efficiency, but unless a radical change takes place with the new caps, they may be finding a new home ? Perhaps I have some out of phase tweeters ? I will give them every chance to stay in my system, and you know how that goes ? The ROOM is the final judge, and though I am in a big room, they MUST work with my Yamaha RX V1, since I am "married" to the Yamaha DSP system ! THIS may be the problem ? Perhaps the poor Cornwall 2's just dont like the Yamaha RX V1 ? In that case, they will not be staying here. I will Love them, while they are here, and try to the best of my ability to restore them, but I am prepared to say goodbye too, if need be. They say if you dont have expectations, you cant be disappointed ? The cornwall 2's were bought only to give more efficiency to my big room. The JBL S 412 P's sounded just wonderful in there. Other then playing louder, at THIS point in the game, the Cornwall 2's are no match for the JBL S 412 P's, in any way. Honestly, they sound crude, by comparasion. I had original Forte's in this room, driven by the Yamaha RX V1, and if memory serves me correctly, the cornwall 2's are not even close. The original Forte's have incredible room rattling deep bass, nice mids, and great detail, good imaging too. I found them just a LITTLE bright, not hard, just a little too vivid for me. I prefer the JBL S 412 P's, with my subwoofers, to them. The cornwall 2's are not bright, I just hear problems in their midrange, maybe they just dont like the Yamaha amp ? Perhaps I will place a different amp on the Yamaha's Pre Outs, see if that is what is happening ? That is as far as I will go with them, other then to restore the crossovers, solder the push on terminals, etc. I have B&W 801's in my main audio system, and the JBL 412's ready to replace the Cornwall 2's in the audio/video system. That will make the Cornwall 2's "Orphans", and I will send them on their way, with Love, knowing I did my best to restore them. I am far from "giving up" on them, new caps are coming, and maybe the new tweeter diapraghms are out of phase ? But I woiuld be less then honest by not saying I almost yanked them last night, in favor of the JBL S 412 P's. I glanced over at the Poor JBL's, sitting unhooked against a wall, shoved out of the way. They did EVERYTHING I want a speaker to do, except play at dance club levels for long periods of time. Do you believe a speaker can "talk to you" ? I swear I could hear them say "WTF are you doing, that crude Cornwall 2 is an inaccurate boat anchor compared to us" Of course, I had a LOT to drink last night too !!! LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 Have another drink,,maybe the voices will go away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ka7niq Posted January 1, 2010 Author Share Posted January 1, 2010 Have another drink,,maybe the voices will go away. Happy New year Maron "Horn" Zak, LOL You know, this speaker hobby is a mixed bag ? Sure, I like high efficiency, who dont ? But NOT at the expense of accuracy/colorations I have heard several really good high efficiency horn systems, most were called Western Electric !!! I have had 4 corner horns, 2 Klipschhorns, 1 speaker lab K, and one speaker factory corner horn. I hear colorations from the folded horn working well up into the midrange! I missed out on ebay on a gigantic JBL horn that would play down pretty low. I was thinking of making a high efficiency corner mounted direct radiator bass unit for it, and bi amping it with my Rane Crossover ? No wonder I am single, lol, I drive my girlfriends nuts playing with this stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ka7niq Posted January 1, 2010 Author Share Posted January 1, 2010 LOL. my maids moved the Cornwall 2's, and hooked themback up OUT of phase! Plus, this blind audiophile accidentally installed one new titanium diapraghm out of phase. I have them sounding much better! Crossed them to fire a few feet in front of me too, think it sounds better, have to listen to some more material. The Cornwall 2's are effortless in their ability to play loud w/o strain, compared to my current other speakers. My mind keeps telling me that the stock Mylar Caps in Cornwall 2's do not go bad like electrolytic caps do. But some have told me they measure high ESR as they age, and it effects sound. The new poly caps for the cornwall 2's will be here this week, and we shall see ? Think I will solder all push on connectors like DJK says to do too. I have some fish oil to rub on the wooden crossover board. It is said that over time, the fish oil works it's way into the caps, giving that oil filled capacitor sound ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 "Think I will solder all push on connectors like DJK says to do too." I like that. DJK's recommendtion for soldering those has been very good for my diaphragm selling business. Bob Crites Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ka7niq Posted January 1, 2010 Author Share Posted January 1, 2010 "Think I will solder all push on connectors like DJK says to do too." I like that. DJK's recommendtion for soldering those has been very good for my diaphragm selling business. Bob Crites Maybe an ultrasonic weld [*-)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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